2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[ZBBM]

Right, but can you really blame people after 5 years of what is essentially failure? How do you believe in this team going forward? How does the regular season matter at all, especially after what we've seen this year?

Calling the first 2, maybe 3 years failures seems harsh to me. The last 2, especially this last one, sure.

Just making the playoffs in the first couple years was exceeding expectations.

The first 3, arguably we should not have really been there, and even then, we pushed some championship caliber teams to the brink with some questionable management/coaching.

The past two are big fat COVID weirdness seasons (oh yeah, a coaching change too). Yes, they were failures, but what type of failures were they? Management, Roster/Personnel, Tactical, Execution, or Divine Judgment?

Where I stand, is the personnel have some responsibility (execution), the coaching staff has some responsibility (tactical), and the management team that empowers them bears the final responsibility. I wouldn't say the issue has been roster-build, which is where people are looking for fixes for their disappointment.

Sorry, but this smacks of some serious Explaining Away.  The first year I'll give you.  After that?  Fai-luh-yer.

 

[ZBBM]

The only thing that can dispel that is to win a freaking round in the playoffs.

But what does that actually prove?

That they can win when the game starts getting called like it's 1999.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

How do you believe in this team going forward? How does the regular season matter at all, especially after what we've seen this year?

To have lost all faith in this team after what we saw this spring you essentially have to believe that a top-5 hockey player on the entire planet in Matthews and one of the highest scoring forwards over the past 3 years in Marner are just going to inexplicably crap the bed again in the playoffs. That's the short and long version of why we got knocked out. I was pissed and frustrated too after that playoff run and I don't expect anyone who still feels like that to switch back to optimism on a dime but I just can't believe two forwards that good are going to perform that bad again.

That's also why I'm not calling for as many changes as others might be. The biggest changes this team needs is for Matthews and Marner to get over that playoff hump and dominate like we know they can (both of whom have shown some shades of that with Mitch in 2018 and Auston in 2020).

 

[herman]

How do you believe in this team going forward? How does the regular season matter at all, especially after what we've seen this year?

To have lost all faith in this team after what we saw this spring you essentially have to believe that a top-5 hockey player on the entire planet in Matthews and one of the highest scoring forwards over the past 3 years in Marner are just going to inexplicably crap the bed again in the playoffs. That's the short and long version of why we got knocked out. I was pissed and frustrated too after that playoff run and I don't expect anyone who still feels like that to switch back to optimism on a dime but I just can't believe two forwards that good are going to perform that bad again.

That's also why I'm not calling for as many changes as others might be. The biggest changes this team needs is for Matthews and Marner to get over that playoff hump and dominate like we know they can (both of whom have shown some shades of that with Mitch in 2018 and Auston in 2020).

Play them less in the regular season, problem solve those trailing games with other players to get them some growth too, and so Matthews-Marner have some gas for when the games get real. That really all there is that needs to be done. Everything else is window dressing.

 

[Frank E]

The only thing that can dispel that is to win a freaking round in the playoffs.

But what does that actually prove?

I think it would disprove that they can't thrive under the pressure conditions of the playoffs.

 

[Bill_Berg]

The only thing that can dispel that is to win a freaking round in the playoffs.

But what does that actually prove?

It will prove that watching them can actually be enjoyable.

 

[Guilt Trip]

The only thing that can dispel that is to win a freaking round in the playoffs.

But what does that actually prove?

It will prove that watching them can actually be enjoyable.

It was enjoyable tho. I enjoyed the season on a whole...didn't like the ending but it was a great year.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

It often gets said that you shouldn't build your team through free agency, so it was nice to see the Leafs just have to add in depth pieces around the core.  I still think they need a Norris capable d-man, but I don't see how they get that, so they are going to have to roll forward with what they currently have.

When you think about it though, if Tavares, Nylander, Marner and Matthews get rolling in the playoffs, they should be able to go far.  As much as we fans may dislike their depth, those are still 4 players that are hard to match up against if they are firing on all cylinders, and at some point, because they are highly skilled, highly paid, and highly competitive, you would expect that to happen in the playoffs.

38

The thought has crossed my mind that either he or Topi Niemel? could turn into that guy.  It's not out of the realm of possibilities, but it also isn't a lock, so right now that is a hope and a prayer, rather than going out and getting someone who has proven that they can be in the conversation as one of the best defensemen in the league.

isn't that the definition of building your team through free agency?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Most of the moves so far probably constitute sideways moves:

Mrazek for Andersen probably would be considered a slight "downgrade" but Mrazek and Campbell as a pair might be better than last year. So slight improvement.

Loss of Bogosian I don't think has been quite covered as yet unless there's a different makeup/style on the D

Obviously up front there's no real direct replacement for Hyman but I think the real difference there can be on the 3rd and 4th line. Bunting for Thornton is probably (sad and hard as it is to admit) an improvement. Moving Kerfoot out of 3rd line centre is also probably an improvement.

Sideways from the team that finished first in the division that came runner up in the Cup final -- that we were a goalpost or two away from being directly involved in? Surprisingly very disappointing for some people.

Not trying to pollyanna this (boo Marner-PP1, coaching deployment overreactions) and this is not directed at you, Arn, but it's like people forget this team still has Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Muzzin, Brodie, Rielly. Teams that have made big changes this offseason so far have largely just tied substantial cap anchors around their necks with middling depth (Buchnevich, Point notwithstanding). There isn't really an outright terrible contract on our cap sheet a la Phaneuf, Marleau, Zaitsev.

Mrazek is probably a downgrade from peak Andersen, but peak Andersen was 3 seasons ago; incidentally we just got the assistant coach that managed the players in front of Mrazek the past couple of seasons.

If Kampf works out as a shutdown 3C (he did effectively it on a defensively inept and moribund CHI team), then that frees up our top 6 to actually do more OZ stuff. Thornton/Kerfoot/broken Riley Nash/Engvall weren't able to do that last season, and also opens up options for either using Kerfoot in the top-6, or trading him/Engvall/Mikheyev to fill the top-6 winger more effectively and shelter Bunting.

Right, but can you really blame people after 5 years of what is essentially failure? How do you believe in this team going forward? How does the regular season matter at all, especially after what we've seen this year?

There is no reason to be optimistic about this team.  The only thing that can dispel that is to win a freaking round in the playoffs.

I don't get this thought process. I'm optimistic about every team I play on, coach, or cheer for going into a new season. Last year is erased. Fresh start. Fresh beginning. All that stuff. Will that optimism have peaks and valleys. It certainly will. But game one of a new season isn't when my optimism is in a valley. A playoff series win may heighten my optimism, but it won't create it.

 

[Chris]

Here's where I'm at with the Leafs. I'm disappointed that a rebuild that looked so promising seems to have stalled. Some of that is just bad luck (pandemic and resulting flat cap). However, some of it also has to be put on management for signing those contracts that have helped put us in this position. And also for letting so much talent walk away for nothing over the years. The early playoff runs were nice, but it led to the rebuild being sped up - bad trades for rentals, holding onto assets that should have been traded. And there don't seem to have been any lessons learned by the core from those first couple of playoff rounds, otherwise they'd have advanced out of the first round by now.

I'm disappointed that we had to sacrifice some good young talent and replace it with lesser talent. Connor Brown - hard working, tough to play against, capable of 20 goals. Kapanen, had issues but boy was he fun to watch. At least he could bury some of those breakaway chances (ahem, Mikheyev). Johnsson I think was a flash in the pan and injury prone, but another guy who was tough to play against and has scored 20 goals in the league. And now to top it all off, Hyman gone for nothing.

On the plus side, the defense has definitely improved over the past couple of seasons. If the core players ever figure out what they need to do in the playoffs, this team could be a threat. But I've gotta say, after watching some of the playoffs this year, I don't think the Leafs are in the same league as some of those teams (Montreal aside). They also don't have much room for error, as we saw this year when Tavares went down. That's where the lack of some of those depth scorers is really felt.

And will they let Rielly walk? Will they be able to re-sign him? After seeing some of the contracts handed out yesterday, I'm not sure they'll be able to afford him. No one seems willing to take much of a home-town discount anymore. I thought Hyman might be the one but was obviously wrong about that. Will Rielly be the one? Maybe?

Based on where the team is at right now, I expect a regression this year in a tough division where even making the playoffs will be difficult. Maybe some regular season adversity will actually be good for this group. We'll see.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Based on where the team is at right now, I expect a regression this year in a tough division where even making the playoffs will be difficult. Maybe some regular season adversity will actually be good for this group. We'll see.

Being in the juggernaut division definitely sucks. I think they'd probably finish 1st in the Metro.

 

[herman]

Let's take a look at our primary competition going into this season and what their offseasons have looked like so far

Tampa: Lost their entire '3rd' line, and Tyler Johnson; Stamkos might be a shell of himself. But they got Bogosian, they play like an extremely well-oiled machine and still have Kuch, Point, Vasilevskiy, Hedman. Tough out always, but took a sizable step back.

Boston: Added Foligno, retained Hall, nice pickup in Reilly. Lost both their goalies though (Rask is injured).

Montreal: still sucks

Florida: up and coming; Ekblad being healthy will make them extra tough to play. Their goaltending is a big question mark riding on Spencer Knight's emergence or Bob's bounceback if possible.

Ottawa: who cares, we'll lose to them either way

Buffalo: lol

 

[Chris]

Let's take a look at our primary competition going into this season and what their offseasons have looked like so far

Tampa: Lost their entire '3rd' line, and Tyler Johnson; Stamkos might be a shell of himself. But they got Bogosian, they play like an extremely well-oiled machine and still have Kuch, Point, Vasilevskiy, Hedman. Tough out always, but took a sizable step back.

Boston: Added Foligno, retained Hall, nice pickup in Reilly. Lost both their goalies though (Rask is injured).

Montreal: still sucks

Florida: up and coming; Ekblad being healthy will make them extra tough to play. Their goaltending is a big question mark riding on Spencer Knight's emergence or Bob's bounceback if possible.

Ottawa: who cares, we'll lose to them either way

Buffalo: lol

You forgot a couple:

Montreal: still sucks but still managed to beat the Leafs and make it to the finals. Losing Danault might be a biggie for them, though.

Toronto: Lost heart and soul 20+ goal scorer Zach Hyman, replaced with...Michael Bunting? Goaltending probably a wash.

 

[Kin]

Hey what about Chara for the Bogo role? How were his numbers in Washington?

 

[Guilt Trip]

Let's take a look at our primary competition going into this season and what their offseasons have looked like so far

Tampa: Lost their entire '3rd' line, and Tyler Johnson; Stamkos might be a shell of himself. But they got Bogosian, they play like an extremely well-oiled machine and still have Kuch, Point, Vasilevskiy, Hedman. Tough out always, but took a sizable step back.

Boston: Added Foligno, retained Hall, nice pickup in Reilly. Lost both their goalies though (Rask is injured).

Montreal: still sucks

Florida: up and coming; Ekblad being healthy will make them extra tough to play. Their goaltending is a big question mark riding on Spencer Knight's emergence or Bob's bounceback if possible.

Ottawa: who cares, we'll lose to them either way

Buffalo: lol

You forgot a couple:

Montreal: still sucks but still managed to beat the Leafs and make it to the finals. Losing Danault might be a biggie for them, though.

Toronto: Lost heart and soul 20+ goal scorer Zach Hyman, replaced with...Michael Bunting? Goaltending probably a wash.

Leafs scored 4 goals a game without Hyman...their PK also improved almost 10%...they will be fine. This is still a very good team.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Hey what about Chara for the Bogo role? How were his numbers in Washington?

I think they were pretty bad and he played sheltered minutes. There are better options but we'd get our own crosschecker!

 

[Kin]

Montreal: still sucks but still managed to beat the Leafs and make it to the finals. Losing Danault might be a biggie for them, though.

Toronto: Lost heart and soul 20+ goal scorer Zach Hyman, replaced with...Michael Bunting? Goaltending probably a wash.

Feels like if you're going to bring up the playoffs loss as particularly relevant it's important to note Montreal probably won't have Weber while the Leafs will have Tavares in all likelihood. That seems more important than, say, Hyman's heart and souling all of one goal in 7 games.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Hey what about Chara for the Bogo role? How were his numbers in Washington?

6th among Caps defencemen in points. 5th in ice-time. 5th in CF (albeit 2-6 were all basically 50%). 6th in GF% (more firmly at the bottom). Don't think it shows a defenceman who's completely finished but nothing really special. IIRC he was still allowed to murder people in the playoffs which could always be a plus though.

 

[Joe S.]

Something that never seems to be brought up is how Hyman came to be the player he is. Let?s be honest, when he came to the leafs I?m sure there were no expectations of him. And his early days were nothing spectacular.

I don?t give much credit to Babcock but he manufactured Hyman into the player he became. He did a bit of the same with Kadri to.

So that being said, I don?t feel Hyman is some special talent that the leafs will be lost without, and I?m not saying he?s easily replaced, but given the right attitude, motivation and coaching, you can manufacture another Hyman.

 

[L K]

Montreal: still sucks but still managed to beat the Leafs and make it to the finals. Losing Danault might be a biggie for them, though.

Toronto: Lost heart and soul 20+ goal scorer Zach Hyman, replaced with...Michael Bunting? Goaltending probably a wash.

Feels like if you're going to bring up the playoffs loss as particularly relevant it's important to note Montreal probably won't have Weber while the Leafs will have Tavares in all likelihood. That seems more important than, say, Hyman's heart and souling all of one goal in 7 games.

The heart and soul guy with 5 goals in 32 playoff games and 5 points in 19 games over the last three seasons.  This playoff series against Montreal really left me looking at Hyman quite confused.  Danault was glued to Matthews.  The rest of the Canadiens were shading Marner to take away his passing opportunities.  Hyman wasn't generating space for Matthews/Marner...he was the one getting it and did nothing with those opportunities.

He's still a good player that we lost but the team isn't necessarily worse off in the long-run...especially at this cap hit.  I'm still worried about the lack of depth scoring with this lineup.

An interesting discussion is whether Rielly is something that becomes a mid-season trade.  I'd be really wary of trading him right now given the lack of anything to replace him with but Campbell needs a new contract next year so unless he stinks the bed its going to be hard to find money to give Rielly more money. If Sandin (and Liljegren) establish themselves as mainstay fixtures...do the Leafs consider doing a swap of Rielly for someone younger who brings a different element to the team?