All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?

[rdowdall]

The leaf system as a whole is much better since Burke has took over. if we dont make the playoffs this season then I will be off his banwaggon. of course I believe we will be in this team will be one year older and better.

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed.  Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

And the players he has added dont count, come on wake up. as for the system his draft picks are comming along that takes time. as for the big club its on the verge of stepping up big time, and just because your to blind to see it I am not going to hold your hand and point it out every time you get depressed because we arn't champs yet.
I still stand by that coaching was our biggest hole last season, and it showed just as the players steped it up all over the NHL Wilson could not get his guys to do the same. and that is when the free fall started. Burke knows he held onto him to long. watch them know the players and what they can do, and you will see this tem is on the up.

Man.  I wish I had the ability to discount half a persons argument the way you do.  Also, the assumptions you made about me being depressed were just, well, awesome.  So, thumbs up for that.   

Also, it sounds like you and Burke talk a lot as you stipulate "Burke knows he held onto him to long".  How is his offseason going?  Is he enjoying his vacation?  Has he watched much of the Olympics?

 

[bustaheims]

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed. Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

Seriously? That's your argument? These are the players still in the system that were drafted by the Leafs before Burke took over - Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Reimer, Holzer, Frattin and Komarov. Every other prospect in the system was either drafted by or brought in by Burke. The only other player in the organization that wasn't acquired by Burke is Grabovski. So, in the entire organization, there are 7 players that Burke didn't draft or acquire. 8 if you count Andrew MacWilliam, though, I don't because he's unlikely to get a contract from the team. Also, I mean, should Burke no get credit for convincing Komarov to finally come to play in North America? Or for helping Frattin get back on track after he was almost booted off his NCAA team?

 

[rdowdall]

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed. Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

Seriously? That's your argument? These are the players still in the system that were drafted by the Leafs before Burke took over - Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Reimer, Holzer, Frattin and Komarov. Every other prospect in the system was either drafted by or brought in by Burke. The only other player in the organization that wasn't acquired by Burke is Grabovski. So, in the entire organization, there are 7 players that Burke didn't draft or acquire. 8 if you count Andrew MacWilliam, though, I don't because he's unlikely to get a contract from the team. Also, I mean, should Burke no get credit for convincing Komarov to finally come to play in North America? Or for helping Frattin get back on track after he was almost booted off his NCAA team?

And the sure fire prospects that will absolutely be full time NHLers that are on the way that Burke has drafted/acquired through trade are who?  Kadri, Colbourne?  I'll give you Gardiner and Bozak, so we are at what, two?  Just so we are on the same page, that's less than 6, right?

And all that turnover on the big club has yielded what?  A team that has finished in the bottom third of the league each year that he has been the GM? 

And as I have said, it's not about giving Burke no credit, it's about judging Burke fairly.  Lets look at this way:

Big Club Grade:  F - The team that he has iced over the last 3.5 years has not shown any sort of improvement in the standings.
Minor Club Grade: C - The Marlies did make the finals, but with some players that were brought in by the previous regime, and with some players that are not going to play for the big club ever.

Add those two grades together and you don't get a passing grade.  You can have hope for the future, that is fine, but don't allow that hope to temper what has happened so far.  I'll give Burke his due credit if he turns this around, but he has to actually turn it around before I say so.  I'm not about to go out on a limb and say "Yeah I know things haven't quite worked out the way that Burke would have liked them too, but it's definitely going to turn around this year for him"

I mean, if people like nutman are saying "I'll give him one more year then I am off the bandwagon" is that not an indictment that his job to date has been lacklustre?  People who are doing a superior job are not usually in danger of losing said job.

 

[bustaheims]

And the sure fire prospects that will absolutely be full time NHLers that are on the way that Burke has drafted/acquired through trade are who?  Kadri, Colbourne?  I'll give you Gardiner and Bozak, so we are at what, two?  Just so we are on the same page, that's less than 6, right?

I only count 2 "sure fire" full time NHLers among the previous regime's prospects - Kulemin and Gunnarsson. The rest are all still question marks.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed. Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

Seriously? That's your argument? These are the players still in the system that were drafted by the Leafs before Burke took over - Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Reimer, Holzer, Frattin and Komarov. Every other prospect in the system was either drafted by or brought in by Burke. The only other player in the organization that wasn't acquired by Burke is Grabovski. So, in the entire organization, there are 7 players that Burke didn't draft or acquire. 8 if you count Andrew MacWilliam, though, I don't because he's unlikely to get a contract from the team. Also, I mean, should Burke no get credit for convincing Komarov to finally come to play in North America? Or for helping Frattin get back on track after he was almost booted off his NCAA team?

And the sure fire prospects that will absolutely be full time NHLers that are on the way that Burke has drafted/acquired through trade are who?  Kadri, Colbourne?  I'll give you Gardiner and Bozak, so we are at what, two?  Just so we are on the same page, that's less than 6, right?

Morgan Rielly will be, barring any catastrophic injury.

 

[rdowdall]

And the sure fire prospects that will absolutely be full time NHLers that are on the way that Burke has drafted/acquired through trade are who?  Kadri, Colbourne?  I'll give you Gardiner and Bozak, so we are at what, two?  Just so we are on the same page, that's less than 6, right?

I only count 2 "sure fire" full time NHLers among the previous regime's prospects - Kulemin and Gunnarsson. The rest are all still question marks.

I see, so Burke's draft picks aren't question marks, but the previous regime's were?  I mean, isn't that what we are discussing here?  How Burke should be lauded for the job he has done with the prospect pool?  How can he be lauded for something that we don't even know what the return on investment is?

 

[rdowdall]

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed. Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

Seriously? That's your argument? These are the players still in the system that were drafted by the Leafs before Burke took over - Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Reimer, Holzer, Frattin and Komarov. Every other prospect in the system was either drafted by or brought in by Burke. The only other player in the organization that wasn't acquired by Burke is Grabovski. So, in the entire organization, there are 7 players that Burke didn't draft or acquire. 8 if you count Andrew MacWilliam, though, I don't because he's unlikely to get a contract from the team. Also, I mean, should Burke no get credit for convincing Komarov to finally come to play in North America? Or for helping Frattin get back on track after he was almost booted off his NCAA team?

And the sure fire prospects that will absolutely be full time NHLers that are on the way that Burke has drafted/acquired through trade are who?  Kadri, Colbourne?  I'll give you Gardiner and Bozak, so we are at what, two?  Just so we are on the same page, that's less than 6, right?

Morgan Rielly will be, barring any catastrophic injury.

Yes, because top 5 picks have never turned out to be busts.  And don't take that to mean that I am saying that he is "guaranteed" to be a bust.  I am saying "The Leafs don't know what they have with him".  Until he proves that he deserves to be in the NHL in some capacity, he is an unknown.

 

[bustaheims]

I see, so Burke's draft picks aren't question marks, but the previous regime's were?  I mean, isn't that what we are discussing here?  How Burke should be lauded for the job he has done with the prospect pool?  How can he be lauded for something that we don't even know what the return on investment is?

I never said Burke's weren't, it's just a much more significant portion of the previous regime's draftees/prospects are already answered questions, and outside of a handful of cases, the answer was less than satisfactory. Burke's prospects are all still very much unanswered questions. When it's all said and done, we may no like the answer, but, giving any significant credit to previous regimes in regards to the current strength of the system is completely disingenuous.

 

[Kin]

The leaf system as a whole is much better since Burke has took over. if we dont make the playoffs this season then I will be off his banwaggon. of course I believe we will be in this team will be one year older and better.

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed.  Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

No. Just no. We do not try and seriously engage Nutman in discussion.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed. Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

Seriously? That's your argument? These are the players still in the system that were drafted by the Leafs before Burke took over - Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Reimer, Holzer, Frattin and Komarov. Every other prospect in the system was either drafted by or brought in by Burke. The only other player in the organization that wasn't acquired by Burke is Grabovski. So, in the entire organization, there are 7 players that Burke didn't draft or acquire. 8 if you count Andrew MacWilliam, though, I don't because he's unlikely to get a contract from the team. Also, I mean, should Burke no get credit for convincing Komarov to finally come to play in North America? Or for helping Frattin get back on track after he was almost booted off his NCAA team?

And the sure fire prospects that will absolutely be full time NHLers that are on the way that Burke has drafted/acquired through trade are who?  Kadri, Colbourne?  I'll give you Gardiner and Bozak, so we are at what, two?  Just so we are on the same page, that's less than 6, right?

Morgan Rielly will be, barring any catastrophic injury.

Yes, because top 5 picks have never turned out to be busts.  And don't take that to mean that I am saying that he is "guaranteed" to be a bust.  I am saying "The Leafs don't know what they have with him".  Until he proves that he deserves to be in the NHL in some capacity, he is an unknown.

Then maybe we shouldn't directly compare the quantity of accomplished prospects from a GM who started 9 years ago compared with one who started 4 years ago with the team.

EDIT: And besides, your question was which 'sure fire prospects that will absolutely be NHLers'.  If they're a prospect then there are no guarantees on any of them, so it's a question that can't be answered affirmatively for any player who is still a prospect.

Long story short, I stand by Rielly.

 

[Kin]

Then maybe we shouldn't directly compare the quantity of accomplished prospects from a GM who started 9 years ago compared with one who started 4 years ago with the team.

I agree. Whatever your feelings about the job Brian Burke has done it really shouldn't be measured by seeing if he can jump the world's smallest hurdle.

 

[rdowdall]

I see, so Burke's draft picks aren't question marks, but the previous regime's were?  I mean, isn't that what we are discussing here?  How Burke should be lauded for the job he has done with the prospect pool?  How can he be lauded for something that we don't even know what the return on investment is?

I never said Burke's weren't, it's just a much more significant portion of the previous regime's draftees/prospects are already answered questions, and outside of a handful of cases, the answer was less than satisfactory. Burke's prospects are all still very much unanswered questions. When it's all said and done, we may no like the answer, but, giving any significant credit to previous regimes in regards to the current strength of the system is completely disingenuous.

If that's the case then, you can't use the argument "Well Burke had nothing to work with" either.  You don't get to cherry pick what you are going to include and exclude.

 

[rdowdall]

The leaf system as a whole is much better since Burke has took over. if we dont make the playoffs this season then I will be off his banwaggon. of course I believe we will be in this team will be one year older and better.

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed.  Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

No. Just no. We do not try and seriously engage Nutman in discussion.

Sorry.  I feel shame.

 

[rdowdall]

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed. Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

Seriously? That's your argument? These are the players still in the system that were drafted by the Leafs before Burke took over - Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Reimer, Holzer, Frattin and Komarov. Every other prospect in the system was either drafted by or brought in by Burke. The only other player in the organization that wasn't acquired by Burke is Grabovski. So, in the entire organization, there are 7 players that Burke didn't draft or acquire. 8 if you count Andrew MacWilliam, though, I don't because he's unlikely to get a contract from the team. Also, I mean, should Burke no get credit for convincing Komarov to finally come to play in North America? Or for helping Frattin get back on track after he was almost booted off his NCAA team?

And the sure fire prospects that will absolutely be full time NHLers that are on the way that Burke has drafted/acquired through trade are who?  Kadri, Colbourne?  I'll give you Gardiner and Bozak, so we are at what, two?  Just so we are on the same page, that's less than 6, right?

Morgan Rielly will be, barring any catastrophic injury.

Yes, because top 5 picks have never turned out to be busts.  And don't take that to mean that I am saying that he is "guaranteed" to be a bust.  I am saying "The Leafs don't know what they have with him".  Until he proves that he deserves to be in the NHL in some capacity, he is an unknown.

Then maybe we shouldn't directly compare the quantity of accomplished prospects from a GM who started 9 years ago compared with one who started 4 years ago with the team.

EDIT: And besides, your question was which 'sure fire prospects that will absolutely be NHLers'.  If they're a prospect then there are no guarantees on any of them, so it's a question that can't be answered affirmatively for any player who is still a prospect.

Long story short, I stand by Rielly.

And there was my point.  If we cannot arrive at any sort of conclusion about what Burke has done with the prospect pool, then can it really be used as a feather for his cap?

 

[bustaheims]

If that's the case then, you can't use the argument "Well Burke had nothing to work with" either.  You don't get to cherry pick what you are going to include and exclude.

I'm pretty sure I've never once said he had nothing to work with, merely that he had little to work with, which still holds true. He didn't have much to work with, and, to some extent, that's shown by how little of what was here when he was hired is still with the organization or are making an impact with other organizations.

 

[#1PilarFan]

If that's the case then, you can't use the argument "Well Burke had nothing to work with" either.  You don't get to cherry pick what you are going to include and exclude.

I'm pretty sure I've never once said he had nothing to work with, merely that he had little to work with, which still holds true. He didn't have much to work with, and, to some extent, that's shown by how little of what was here when he was hired is still with the organization or are making an impact with other organizations.

Sure he didn't have a ton to work with, but trading two high firsts for Kessel didn't do him any favours.

I think, this far into his tenure, his lack of limited success can now be attributed to him and him alone.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I've been a supporter of Burke's for the simple fact that I think this team is in a better place now than when he stepped in. That being said, year after year of not being in the playoffs is wearing on me and i'm sure many other Burke supporters.

I think that is hard to justify.  The big club has not had any sort of success since he has been here, so that is one strike against him.  People point to prospect pool as being improved, but that is also hard to quantify as a lot of times people point to prospects that were actually brought in under JFJ and Fletcher.  He may have drafted some good players, but there isn't any real proof that his drafting is going to yield valuable NHL'ers.  Also I think the lack of a real elite level prospect within the system is a detriment to the Leafs going forward.

Which is why I stated 'I think'...not 'Everyone Knows'.

Which is why I replied with "I think".

What 'you think' doesn't really apply to what 'I think'.

I see.  So they don't have counter arguments in your world?

Not really. Ask my wife.

 

[rdowdall]

If that's the case then, you can't use the argument "Well Burke had nothing to work with" either.  You don't get to cherry pick what you are going to include and exclude.

I'm pretty sure I've never once said he had nothing to work with, merely that he had little to work with, which still holds true. He didn't have much to work with, and, to some extent, that's shown by how little of what was here when he was hired is still with the organization or are making an impact with other organizations.

My apologies.  I should have modified that to say that he had little to work with.  I don't think that holds true.  If there are 6 prospects within your organization that are going to play for your big club in any capacity, that represents 26% of the roster that you can carry.  So a quarter of the team next year could be coming from players that were not drafted by Burke, but were drafted by the Leafs.

That is not a drop in the bucket.  I just don't think it's enough to point to the prospect pool as Burke's saving grace and say "Look what he has done there, everything is on track".

 

[rdowdall]

I've been a supporter of Burke's for the simple fact that I think this team is in a better place now than when he stepped in. That being said, year after year of not being in the playoffs is wearing on me and i'm sure many other Burke supporters.

I think that is hard to justify.  The big club has not had any sort of success since he has been here, so that is one strike against him.  People point to prospect pool as being improved, but that is also hard to quantify as a lot of times people point to prospects that were actually brought in under JFJ and Fletcher.  He may have drafted some good players, but there isn't any real proof that his drafting is going to yield valuable NHL'ers.  Also I think the lack of a real elite level prospect within the system is a detriment to the Leafs going forward.

Which is why I stated 'I think'...not 'Everyone Knows'.

Which is why I replied with "I think".

What 'you think' doesn't really apply to what 'I think'.

I see.  So they don't have counter arguments in your world?

Not really. Ask my wife.

There's a follow up to this that probably shouldn't be posted. 

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I've been a supporter of Burke's for the simple fact that I think this team is in a better place now than when he stepped in. That being said, year after year of not being in the playoffs is wearing on me and i'm sure many other Burke supporters.

I think that is hard to justify.  The big club has not had any sort of success since he has been here, so that is one strike against him.  People point to prospect pool as being improved, but that is also hard to quantify as a lot of times people point to prospects that were actually brought in under JFJ and Fletcher.  He may have drafted some good players, but there isn't any real proof that his drafting is going to yield valuable NHL'ers.  Also I think the lack of a real elite level prospect within the system is a detriment to the Leafs going forward.

Which is why I stated 'I think'...not 'Everyone Knows'.

Which is why I replied with "I think".

What 'you think' doesn't really apply to what 'I think'.

I see.  So they don't have counter arguments in your world?

Not really. Ask my wife.

There's a follow up to this that probably shouldn't be posted.

Probably not.