Auston Matthews

[KGB]

Nik, you know I've been around long enough to see through your rhetorical tricks (here, subtly changing words and then arguing from those premises, etc.). "More popular" is, of course, not what I said.  I said "better," and my very point is that better is not always the same as more popular. 

You said bigger. Which in a financial sense means "more popular". Unless you actually mean physically bigger which would be entirely irrelevant as the article is not making the case for expansion. Remember when John Lennon said that the Beatles were "bigger than Jesus"? Were you labouring under the impression he meant they were fatter?

Lennon never said they were "bigger" than Jesus.  He said they were more popular.  Nitpicking, my friend.

 

[KGB]

I'm 46 years old so I can't speak of your George Armstrongs, but at this point I'm open to the discussion as to whether or not Auston Matthews is the best Leaf in my lifetime  In other words, he's currently playing at a level that I've never witnessed. 

I was still fairly young when Sittler was at his peak, and not quite knowledgeable about the finer points of the game, so someone give me the Sittler argument if you're so inclined.  The only other two options are Gilmour in his pomp, 1992-1994, and Sundin for a few seasons around Y2K.  As much as I love Mats, I think Gilmour at his best was a notch above and that it's his play in the early 90's that Matthews has to best.  Gilmour peaked with a Selke and second place Hart finish in 1993.  He was amazing that year, skating and passing gorgeously while at the same time being an annoying wasp of a checker.  I'm not sure Matthews is playing at a higher level than that but it's already time to have that conversation.  I would say that based off these first couple weeks, Matthews will be a Hart finalist next spring for both his play and the team results it has engendered.  If he can touch 100 points this year -- something I'd deem equivalent to the 127 Dougie racked up in 1993 -- I'm ready to say he's the best Leaf of my lifetime. 

Any arguments pro or con? 

 

[Kin]

I don't think I'm personally quite at the point where I'd say he's better than Sundin at his best. I think Sundin's best years are fairly underrated considering the level of support he had and the general way the game was played in those dead puck years.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I also won't say yet that he's better than Sundin or Gilmour, but if I'm on a train to Montreal and I just passed Kingston, I'm going to assume I'm getting to Montreal. I fully expect to believe he's the best Leaf in my life time at some point in the relatively near future.

 

[disco]

https://twitter.com/oak_leafs/status/921040788930383873

 

[Zee]

I also won't say yet that he's better than Sundin or Gilmour, but if I'm on a train to Montreal and I just passed Kingston, I'm going to assume I'm getting to Montreal. I fully expect to believe he's the best Leaf in my life time at some point in the relatively near future.

I have no doubt he'll get there barring some major issue like injury.  The kid's skills are unique and amazing to watch game in game out.

 

[ZBBM]

I don't think I'm personally quite at the point where I'd say he's better than Sundin at his best. I think Sundin's best years are fairly underrated considering the level of support he had and the general way the game was played in those dead puck years.

This.  I am biased, as Mats is my favorite player, but I was just thinking last night (watching Matthews) that if he had played when they are calling the game as they do now, I can only imagine how many points he would have racked up.  He spent half his time on the ice with somebody hooking or obstructing him -- that's the only way they could stop him.

Matthews may well one day become the greatest Leaf ever -- in fact I hope he does.  But Sundin is a first-ballot HOFer; it will be a long time yet before we can be sure that Matthews will be too.

 

[mr grieves]

I also won't say yet that he's better than Sundin or Gilmour, but if I'm on a train to Montreal and I just passed Kingston, I'm going to assume I'm getting to Montreal. I fully expect to believe he's the best Leaf in my life time at some point in the relatively near future.

I have no doubt he'll get there barring some major issue like injury.  The kid's skills are unique and amazing to watch game in game out.

Put me down for this.

He's not yet better than Sundin at his best, but that's a less relevant point of comparison than Sundin, age 19-20. I'm too young to remember that.

 

[bustaheims]

He's not yet better than Sundin at his best, but that's a less relevant point of comparison than Sundin, age 19-20. I'm too young to remember that.

Sundin also wasn't a Leaf for those years, so, even if he was better than Matthews' then, it wouldn't make him a better Leaf.

 

[mr grieves]

He's not yet better than Sundin at his best, but that's a less relevant point of comparison than Sundin, age 19-20. I'm too young to remember that.

Sundin also wasn't a Leaf for those years, so, even if he was better than Matthews' then, it wouldn't make him a better Leaf.

And Auston could refuse to sign here during his UFA years and not be much of a Leaf. Yes.

I'm just trying to make sense of how he looks compared to what I remember of Sundin, and running into the problem of never having Sundin at a comparable age. Who knows what Matthews will look like in 10 years?

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Does Auston have commercials like this yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySjUgBSA80g

 

[rdowdall]

I also won't say yet that he's better than Sundin or Gilmour, but if I'm on a train to Montreal and I just passed Kingston, I'm going to assume I'm getting to Montreal. I fully expect to believe he's the best Leaf in my life time at some point in the relatively near future.

I have no doubt he'll get there barring some major issue like injury.  The kid's skills are unique and amazing to watch game in game out.

Put me down for this.

He's not yet better than Sundin at his best, but that's a less relevant point of comparison than Sundin, age 19-20. I'm too young to remember that.

Sundin, at age 21, had a 30 game point streak.  Finished with 114 points that year.  However that was with the Nordiques.

 

[Zee]

I also won't say yet that he's better than Sundin or Gilmour, but if I'm on a train to Montreal and I just passed Kingston, I'm going to assume I'm getting to Montreal. I fully expect to believe he's the best Leaf in my life time at some point in the relatively near future.

I have no doubt he'll get there barring some major issue like injury.  The kid's skills are unique and amazing to watch game in game out.

Put me down for this.

He's not yet better than Sundin at his best, but that's a less relevant point of comparison than Sundin, age 19-20. I'm too young to remember that.

Sundin, at age 21, had a 30 game point streak.  Finished with 114 points that year.  However that was with the Nordiques.

You have to look at them relative to the rest of the league though. In Sundin's rookie year he wasn't in the top 50 of NHL scorers and didn't win rookie of the year. Matthews was 20th overall in scoring in his rookie season.

 

[Kin]

You have to look at them relative to the rest of the league though. In Sundin's rookie year he wasn't in the top 50 of NHL scorers and didn't win rookie of the year. Matthews was 20th overall in scoring in his rookie season.

I don't think you can just look at it in that way though. Matthews also joined a team that seemed built to shelter the rookies, with a couple good scoring lines and with veterans in key places. Sundin joined one of the all-time worst teams in history.

The Nordiques had 31 points the year before Sundin joined. That's not a typo.

 

[KGB]

I also won't say yet that he's better than Sundin or Gilmour, but if I'm on a train to Montreal and I just passed Kingston, I'm going to assume I'm getting to Montreal. I fully expect to believe he's the best Leaf in my life time at some point in the relatively near future.

I have no doubt he'll get there barring some major issue like injury.  The kid's skills are unique and amazing to watch game in game out.

Put me down for this.

He's not yet better than Sundin at his best, but that's a less relevant point of comparison than Sundin, age 19-20. I'm too young to remember that.

Sundin, at age 21, had a 30 game point streak.  Finished with 114 points that year.  However that was with the Nordiques.

114 points put him at 11th in scoring, in a year when 21(!) players hit the century mark.  It's not hard to envision Matthews in the top 10 scorers this year.   

 

[Peter D.]

Sundin, at age 21, had a 30 game point streak.  Finished with 114 points that year.  However that was with the Nordiques.

The most remarkable thing about that point streak is that he is one of only three players all time to have a streak that hit 30+ games.  We can guess who the other two are.  Pretty heady company.

 

[L K]

Sundin, at age 21, had a 30 game point streak.  Finished with 114 points that year.  However that was with the Nordiques.

The most remarkable thing about that point streak is that he is one of only three players all time to have a streak that hit 30+ games.  We can guess who the other two are.  Pretty heady company.

Seven games translate over a full year but he is on pace for 117 points right now

 

[herman]

https://www.si.com/nhl/2017/10/19/auston-matthews-shot-stealth-maple-leafs

Carrick is thinking about what makes Matthews special. Grab a stall. Deep breath. This might take a few minutes. ?He has a really strong sense of his skill level,? Carrick says. ?I think he?s just able to work at a little bit higher pace in those tighter situations. Some guys see traffic as something to avoid, something to slow down for. You almost see him look at numbers at the line and hit the gas, attack the line and bull-rush it.

?The blend in his shot is really special, his ability to change angles and be deceptive and land in one piece and let that puck go is really high-end. Then I think the fact that when he?s stick-handling in-zone, all 360 degrees around him are in play. He?ll use whatever he?s got. He?ll use the back of the wall, he?ll use his feet, he?ll put it in areas and block a guy?s stick. He?s very talented that way, and he?s able to use his range all around him. And then when you have his size, it?s hard to reach around and try to poke that puck free.?

Carrick is a really, really good quote.

 

[rdowdall]

Sundin, at age 21, had a 30 game point streak.  Finished with 114 points that year.  However that was with the Nordiques.

The most remarkable thing about that point streak is that he is one of only three players all time to have a streak that hit 30+ games.  We can guess who the other two are.  Pretty heady company.

Seven games translate over a full year but he is on pace for 117 points right now

Which if Matthews gets there in his second season, well that will be amazing.  The last couple of seasons there has been an average of one player getting to a hundred points, and barely beyond that.  If Matthews was to get to 117, well that's when I'd start to consider putting him in the conversation with McDavid, Crosby and Karlsson.

 

[Zee]

You have to look at them relative to the rest of the league though. In Sundin's rookie year he wasn't in the top 50 of NHL scorers and didn't win rookie of the year. Matthews was 20th overall in scoring in his rookie season.

I don't think you can just look at it in that way though. Matthews also joined a team that seemed built to shelter the rookies, with a couple good scoring lines and with veterans in key places. Sundin joined one of the all-time worst teams in history.

The Nordiques had 31 points the year before Sundin joined. That's not a typo.

It's always difficult to compare, but if Matthews has a career where he's up for awards like the Hart, Rocket Richard, Conn Smythe(please please please) it would be hard to say that Sundin was a better player. Guys that are up for awards are considered to be the  top 1-3 players in the entire league.  From what I remember, Sundin was never in that conversation. All that being said, it's a bit premature to compare now with Matthews only 89 games into his career.