Burke Fired

[Justin]

Burke had full autonomy. James Mirtle says that according to sources the board wanted someone who would listen to them, for better or for worse.

And this is the scary thing.  We don't need the team to venture back to its old ways where the GM is not allowed to do his job as he deems fit/necessary.

Anselmi was asked by Cybulski yesterday if Nonis has full autonomy, and he quickly replied with, "Yes."  We'll see if that truly is the case.

And yet, Nonis wasn't given Burke's title of team President. Richard Peddie commented yesterday that he didn't agree with the Kessel trade but allowed it to happen because he had faith in Brian. Would Anselmi and MLSE do the same thing if they didn't agree with Nonis?

 

[Zee]

Bottom line, it would appear that Nonis may have a little more tact than Burke, and if that is the case and he is as smart a hockey man as everyone is saying he is, then the Leafs may be okay, but only time will tell.

Hopefully he has the ability to run the hockey operations as he wants, without interference or "suggestions" about player personnel from the board of directors.  Given his close relationship to Burke, I think Nonis wants to prove they were on the right track in building the team, so I'm hopeful he gets the chance to continue building this organization the way he wants.  This should have been a playoff team last season, it was for 60% of the season, then everything fell apart.  I *hope* we're not so far off as many think.

 

[Tigger]

Ugh,

@mirtle
More interesting: Heard Corey Perry would have seriously considered joining his former GM when he becomes a UFA. Two have good relationship.

Oh, oh irony!

 

[Britishbulldog]

So is there a summary of what people think why the Leafs didn't perform better after 4 years of Burke at the helm?

For me I see he tried. 

He started with:
Final roster against Philadelphia, November 29, 2008:

Hagman / Grabovski / Stempniak
Ponikarovsky / Stajan / Antropov
Kulemin / D. Moore / Mayers
Hollweg / Mitchell / Deveaux

Kaberle / Kubina
Finger / Schenn
Stralman / White

Toskola

WOOF!

and added:
in the summer a hot goaltender prospect Gustavsson, Colton Orr who gave the Leafs one of the toughest fighters in the league to protect the talent as well as toughness on the defense with UFA Komisarek, Beauchemin and in then in January Phaneuf.  In January he also corrected the Toskala fiasco and got Giguere and Burke seemed on paper to be doing good.

When he added top 6 forwards Versteeg and MacArthur the following summer I figured that things for the Leafs would have gelled at least a little bit.

I am quite upset that Burke hadn't got Stewart and Eager ( ) but I actually have liked his style of trading and patience.  Not many knee jerk reactions from Burke which I also liked and it is a shame that people pick apart only mistakes and don't give credit to bold moves since most of the people who I know that don't screw up are lazy and lack vision.

If Burke had 2 more years do you think he could have made the team a regular contender?

 

[Corn Flake]

Burke had full autonomy. James Mirtle says that according to sources the board wanted someone who would listen to them, for better or for worse.

And this is the scary thing.  We don't need the team to venture back to its old ways where the GM is not allowed to do his job as he deems fit/necessary.

Anselmi was asked by Cybulski yesterday if Nonis has full autonomy, and he quickly replied with, "Yes."  We'll see if that truly is the case.

He may have it in theory but what happens when a board member feels personally slighted when he doesn't take their advice?

But this is where Burke probably lacked finesse.  There are ways that you can appease an upper management team when they give you bad suggestions.  Burke's approach to things was probably to always be as blunt as possible, and that is admirable, but it doesn't always work with everyone.  I once worked for a company that had two owners.  One of the owners you could have a conversation with, and you could say how you really felt and there never was a problem.  That owner just wanted the plain hard facts.  The other owner always wanted to be right.  So you had to listen to his argument, make your case, somewhat stubbornly, but not too stubbornly and then wait.  In a couple of days that owner would come back you and say that they had changed their mind and that they now wanted to go with a new approach.  Most of the time, that approach was the one that you presented, but you never got credit for it.  It was frustrating, but that was the way it was.

Bottom line, it would appear that Nonis may have a little more tact than Burke, and if that is the case and he is as smart a hockey man as everyone is saying he is, then the Leafs may be okay, but only time will tell.

To a point, yes, but if Burke had that little tact, I don't think he would have gotten to where he has in his career. He has had a long history of working with business executives, and he's a laywer.  For the most part we know Burke calculated what he said publicly. 

I don't think Burke yelled and scremed in board meetings with a whole "my way or the highway" approach any time a question was raised, and I am sure he we perfectly capable of explaining his plan and reasons for certain decisions... but that said, a room full of extremely driven people will alway have clashes and disagreements are going to be very common.  At some point he could have said "we aren't doing this trade/that signing, I don't believe it is the right thing".  Someone in the end usually has to bend and you can be sure that George Cope wasn't going to be that guy.  You don't climb the ranks and take over as CEO of Bell without being the strongest guy in the room.  So in the end if there are significant disagreements and egos clash, the lower guy on the totem pole usually loses.  As it has been said, Burke is a very polarizing figure - you either roll with his style or you probably hate it.

 

[Corn Flake]

I really hope Nonis isn't just a puppet GM.

I don't think he is.  He pretty much got fired in Van for not agreeing to start trading away their better prospects for rentals, etc. 

This is where things could get a bit bizarre here.. if the new MLSE brass start pressing him to do this more, they might not get the response they want and might make yet another change before long.

This is my big concern with the Burke move... aside from the terrible timing, you can argue he wasn't getting it done and new people want their people - fine.  But how they went about this, their lack of clarity on why and the timing just makes me feel like this ownership is going to meddle and pressure their management for the results they expect. 

Nonis won't pull a JFJ and get run over by the board, but what worries me is we might lose Nonis sooner than we had hoped and then the gong show will be back in town.

 

[Deebo]

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[Corn Flake]

Does this thing get even more gong show'ish if/when they decide to bring in a President to run the Leafs? I can't imagine they leave it without for very long... so what if that person isn't a Nonis fan? 

Around and around we go.  I've been on this ride with this team for too long. 

 

[rdowdall]

Burke had full autonomy. James Mirtle says that according to sources the board wanted someone who would listen to them, for better or for worse.

And this is the scary thing.  We don't need the team to venture back to its old ways where the GM is not allowed to do his job as he deems fit/necessary.

Anselmi was asked by Cybulski yesterday if Nonis has full autonomy, and he quickly replied with, "Yes."  We'll see if that truly is the case.

He may have it in theory but what happens when a board member feels personally slighted when he doesn't take their advice?

But this is where Burke probably lacked finesse.  There are ways that you can appease an upper management team when they give you bad suggestions.  Burke's approach to things was probably to always be as blunt as possible, and that is admirable, but it doesn't always work with everyone.  I once worked for a company that had two owners.  One of the owners you could have a conversation with, and you could say how you really felt and there never was a problem.  That owner just wanted the plain hard facts.  The other owner always wanted to be right.  So you had to listen to his argument, make your case, somewhat stubbornly, but not too stubbornly and then wait.  In a couple of days that owner would come back you and say that they had changed their mind and that they now wanted to go with a new approach.  Most of the time, that approach was the one that you presented, but you never got credit for it.  It was frustrating, but that was the way it was.

Bottom line, it would appear that Nonis may have a little more tact than Burke, and if that is the case and he is as smart a hockey man as everyone is saying he is, then the Leafs may be okay, but only time will tell.

To a point, yes, but if Burke had that little tact, I don't think he would have gotten to where he has in his career. He has had a long history of working with business executives, and he's a laywer.  For the most part we know Burke calculated what he said publicly. 

I don't think Burke yelled and scremed in board meetings with a whole "my way or the highway" approach any time a question was raised, and I am sure he we perfectly capable of explaining his plan and reasons for certain decisions... but that said, a room full of extremely driven people will alway have clashes and disagreements are going to be very common.  At some point he could have said "we aren't doing this trade/that signing, I don't believe it is the right thing".  Someone in the end usually has to bend and you can be sure that George Cope wasn't going to be that guy.  You don't climb the ranks and take over as CEO of Bell without being the strongest guy in the room.  So in the end if there are significant disagreements and egos clash, the lower guy on the totem pole usually loses.  As it has been said, Burke is a very polarizing figure - you either roll with his style or you probably hate it.

I was just responding to the person worrying about Nonis being a puppet.  I don't think this is a concern.  I think there are ways that you go about doing what is right for the organization and still appease your bosses.  I think one of the differences between Nonis and Burke is there approach to handling differences of opinion.  I've never heard Nonis challenge someone to a barn fight.  That isn't saying he hasn't.  Just that I have never heard of it.

Quinn had to work with Peddie and the Leafs were successful.  It wasn't like Peddie was telling Quinn what to do each season.  Or maybe he was, but it didn't stop them from making the playoffs.  Now in that situation, the Leafs had the core that they needed in order to build, and it was centered around Sundin. 

The problem the Leafs have right now is that they don't have that core.  It's Nonis's job to figure out how to get that core, and keep his bosses happy with his progress.  I think once the Leafs are a playoff contender again, things become a little easier because they should have the resources to maintain that.  It's getting there that is going to be hard because they want to be there right now, and it may not be possible to build properly and do that.

 

[Bender]

He may have it in theory but what happens when a board member feels personally slighted when he doesn't take their advice?

A winning hockey team is his best insulation

That's true, but that may not be reality. I know Nonis said he wouldn't gut the roster but the reality may be something else, like keeping the important assets the team has and turn over the rest of the roster, maybe bottom out for another 2yrs for high end prospects.

I just don't see the Burke blueprint 2.0, competitive on the fly working out. I just hope getting rid of Burke is one of their few stamps and will let Nonis build the team without meddling.

 

[Corn Flake]

I was just responding to the person worrying about Nonis being a puppet.  I don't think this is a concern.  I think there are ways that you go about doing what is right for the organization and still appease your bosses.  I think one of the differences between Nonis and Burke is there approach to handling differences of opinion.  I've never heard Nonis challenge someone to a barn fight.  That isn't saying he hasn't.  Just that I have never heard of it.

For sure. Nonis will certainly bring a calmer, quieter approach.  He's almost droopy in his persona but same as you I don't think that should be mistaken for him being clueless, weak or a potential puppet. 

I wonder if the board will be dissappointed when they find that out though. We know this board has meddled in the past, but a smaller more concentrated group now could be even worse. The decision to axe Burke over his approach to me is evidence of that.  They may not like Nonis either once they find out he's not going to do everything they say.

Quinn had to work with Peddie and the Leafs were successful.  It wasn't like Peddie was telling Quinn what to do each season.  Or maybe he was, but it didn't stop them from making the playoffs.  Now in that situation, the Leafs had the core that they needed in order to build, and it was centered around Sundin. 

Well they didn't work together very well either and Quinn was eventually pushed out of the GM role by Peddie & Tannenbaum. So in a less dramatic fashion he was also pushed out.  I doubt they got to tell Quinn what to do but like you suggest, when your core is there and you are winning, you can't just blow the guy away.  If Burke had a playoff / contending team with a franchise player it was built around, things probably didn't go down the way they did yesterday at all. 

The problem the Leafs have right now is that they don't have that core.  It's Nonis's job to figure out how to get that core, and keep his bosses happy with his progress.  I think once the Leafs are a playoff contender again, things become a little easier because they should have the resources to maintain that.  It's getting there that is going to be hard because they want to be there right now, and it may not be possible to build properly and do that.

I think they have a core but how good that core is is another debate.  I would look at it more as that Nonis needs to get this team to take the next steps and they are big steps in order to become a playoff team again.  Whether they parlay some of the prospects they have collected into guys who make an impact now (Luongo) or do they lie in wait for this year and cross fingers this UFA market coming up stays as full of top end guys as it has right now (Perry), or who knows what else might be out there.

I don't think Nonis will be given much time to complete what Burke started and he will probably get until some point next year before we start hearing noises about his head rolling.

 

[lamajama]

A few thoughts...Corey Perry - I think BelRog will unleash the purse strings and long term deals (as much as can be done) and Perry will certainly still give us consideration, if not Getzlaff too.

For those who complained about having a Pension Plan as an owner and wishing for an "accountable" and driven ownership face, how do you like it now?

And believe me I was at the front of that line. I guess it's "beware of what you wish for" and "I wish I could get rid of the Leaf disease"...we never do much "right" or should I say much that the rest of the world sees as
logical.  :-\

 

[Bender]

I really hope Nonis isn't just a puppet GM.

I don't think he is.  He pretty much got fired in Van for not agreeing to start trading away their better prospects for rentals, etc. 

This is where things could get a bit bizarre here.. if the new MLSE brass start pressing him to do this more, they might not get the response they want and might make yet another change before long.

This is my big concern with the Burke move... aside from the terrible timing, you can argue he wasn't getting it done and new people want their people - fine.  But how they went about this, their lack of clarity on why and the timing just makes me feel like this ownership is going to meddle and pressure their management for the results they expect. 

Nonis won't pull a JFJ and get run over by the board, but what worries me is we might lose Nonis sooner than we had hoped and then the gong show will be back in town.

Speaking of Gong show what I find kind of insane that Damien Cox first pointed out is we've had 9 GMs in 24 years. That's 2.6 years per GM.

No wonder we haven't had any long term success. No GM since Fletch has been here 5 years or more, and even then he only had 6 years. The last time we had a true long term GM was Jim Gregory from 1969-1979 (although Gerry McNamara was around in some fashion for quite a long time too). Sather didn't make the playoffs for four years and turned the Rangers around eventually. Now hes on year 13. 

I don't know. We need someone who has a long term vision who can stay and develop this team over the course of more than just five years.

 

[rdowdall]

Well they didn't work together very well either and Quinn was eventually pushed out of the GM role by Peddie & Tannenbaum. So in a less dramatic fashion he was also pushed out.  I doubt they got to tell Quinn what to do but like you suggest, when your core is there and you are winning, you can't just blow the guy away.  If Burke had a playoff / contending team with a franchise player it was built around, things probably didn't go down the way they did yesterday at all. 

I always thought that Tannenbaum backed Quinn.  I thought that Peddie was the TPP's guy, and that one of the reasons that Quinn was pushed out was because he had too much pull with Tannenbaum.  I remember something like that coming up when JFJ was hired.  One of the reasons they went with him over Bob Nicholson or Steve Tambellini was because he had no ties to Quinn.  That and JFJ scored high on an IQ test.

I think they have a core but how good that core is is another debate.  I would look at it more as that Nonis needs to get this team to take the next steps and they are big steps in order to become a playoff team again.  Whether they parlay some of the prospects they have collected into guys who make an impact now (Luongo) or do they lie in wait for this year and cross fingers this UFA market coming up stays as full of top end guys as it has right now (Perry), or who knows what else might be out there.

I don't think Nonis will be given much time to complete what Burke started and he will probably get until some point next year before we start hearing noises about his head rolling.

Yeah, I think Nonis is probably on a short leash as well because of his ties to Burke.  I hope he is smart enough to get the Leafs out of this "almost there" cycle that they seem to be stuck in.  My concern is that I don't want the Leafs to just make the playoffs.  I want them to build a team and an organization that sets a standard.  I want them to be the model of consistency, and I want them to push to be the best team in the NHL.  With their current core, I don't think they can do that.  I think they need a couple of seasons more drafting near the bottom in order to get there, but I don't think Nonis has that kind of time.

 

[Zee]

I really hope Nonis isn't just a puppet GM.

I don't think he is.  He pretty much got fired in Van for not agreeing to start trading away their better prospects for rentals, etc. 

This is where things could get a bit bizarre here.. if the new MLSE brass start pressing him to do this more, they might not get the response they want and might make yet another change before long.

This is my big concern with the Burke move... aside from the terrible timing, you can argue he wasn't getting it done and new people want their people - fine.  But how they went about this, their lack of clarity on why and the timing just makes me feel like this ownership is going to meddle and pressure their management for the results they expect. 

Nonis won't pull a JFJ and get run over by the board, but what worries me is we might lose Nonis sooner than we had hoped and then the gong show will be back in town.

Speaking of Gong show what I find kind of insane that Damien Cox first pointed out is we've had 9 GMs in 24 years. That's 2.6 years per GM.

No wonder we haven't had any long term success. No GM since Fletch has been here 5 years or more, and even then he only had 6 years. The last time we had a true long term GM was Jim Gregory from 1969-1979 (although Gerry McNamara was around in some fashion for quite a long time too). Sather didn't make the playoffs for four years and turned the Rangers around eventually. Now hes on year 13. 

I don't know. We need someone who has a long term vision who can stay and develop this team over the course of more than just five years.

We need a young up and coming exec, in the Alex Anthopolous mold.  I have no idea who that is, maybe it's Nonis?  If he's canned in 2.6 years well then, I guess not.  :-\

 

[Rick C.]

I think Burke summed it up himself (in a prior interview).  "This job is a highwire act without a net".

Someone on Sportsnet just mentioned Nonis got a 3 year extension for taking the job.

 

[Justin]

I really hope Nonis isn't just a puppet GM.

I don't think he is.  He pretty much got fired in Van for not agreeing to start trading away their better prospects for rentals, etc. 

This is where things could get a bit bizarre here.. if the new MLSE brass start pressing him to do this more, they might not get the response they want and might make yet another change before long.

This is my big concern with the Burke move... aside from the terrible timing, you can argue he wasn't getting it done and new people want their people - fine.  But how they went about this, their lack of clarity on why and the timing just makes me feel like this ownership is going to meddle and pressure their management for the results they expect. 

Nonis won't pull a JFJ and get run over by the board, but what worries me is we might lose Nonis sooner than we had hoped and then the gong show will be back in town.

Speaking of Gong show what I find kind of insane that Damien Cox first pointed out is we've had 9 GMs in 24 years. That's 2.6 years per GM.

No wonder we haven't had any long term success. No GM since Fletch has been here 5 years or more, and even then he only had 6 years. The last time we had a true long term GM was Jim Gregory from 1969-1979 (although Gerry McNamara was around in some fashion for quite a long time too). Sather didn't make the playoffs for four years and turned the Rangers around eventually. Now hes on year 13. 

I don't know. We need someone who has a long term vision who can stay and develop this team over the course of more than just five years.

We need a young up and coming exec, in the Alex Anthopolous mold.  I have no idea who that is, maybe it's Nonis?  If he's canned in 2.6 years well then, I guess not.  :-\

We need one? JFJ was a young and upcoming exec.

 

[Zee]

I really hope Nonis isn't just a puppet GM.

I don't think he is.  He pretty much got fired in Van for not agreeing to start trading away their better prospects for rentals, etc. 

This is where things could get a bit bizarre here.. if the new MLSE brass start pressing him to do this more, they might not get the response they want and might make yet another change before long.

This is my big concern with the Burke move... aside from the terrible timing, you can argue he wasn't getting it done and new people want their people - fine.  But how they went about this, their lack of clarity on why and the timing just makes me feel like this ownership is going to meddle and pressure their management for the results they expect. 

Nonis won't pull a JFJ and get run over by the board, but what worries me is we might lose Nonis sooner than we had hoped and then the gong show will be back in town.

Speaking of Gong show what I find kind of insane that Damien Cox first pointed out is we've had 9 GMs in 24 years. That's 2.6 years per GM.

No wonder we haven't had any long term success. No GM since Fletch has been here 5 years or more, and even then he only had 6 years. The last time we had a true long term GM was Jim Gregory from 1969-1979 (although Gerry McNamara was around in some fashion for quite a long time too). Sather didn't make the playoffs for four years and turned the Rangers around eventually. Now hes on year 13. 

I don't know. We need someone who has a long term vision who can stay and develop this team over the course of more than just five years.

We need a young up and coming exec, in the Alex Anthopolous mold.  I have no idea who that is, maybe it's Nonis?  If he's canned in 2.6 years well then, I guess not.  :-\

We need one? JFJ was a young and upcoming exec.

Well, JFJ has gone backwards and is now a scout.  So I wouldn't call him "up and coming" in any sense of the word.  He was an ownership puppet.

 

[Justin]

I really hope Nonis isn't just a puppet GM.

I don't think he is.  He pretty much got fired in Van for not agreeing to start trading away their better prospects for rentals, etc. 

This is where things could get a bit bizarre here.. if the new MLSE brass start pressing him to do this more, they might not get the response they want and might make yet another change before long.

This is my big concern with the Burke move... aside from the terrible timing, you can argue he wasn't getting it done and new people want their people - fine.  But how they went about this, their lack of clarity on why and the timing just makes me feel like this ownership is going to meddle and pressure their management for the results they expect. 

Nonis won't pull a JFJ and get run over by the board, but what worries me is we might lose Nonis sooner than we had hoped and then the gong show will be back in town.

Speaking of Gong show what I find kind of insane that Damien Cox first pointed out is we've had 9 GMs in 24 years. That's 2.6 years per GM.

No wonder we haven't had any long term success. No GM since Fletch has been here 5 years or more, and even then he only had 6 years. The last time we had a true long term GM was Jim Gregory from 1969-1979 (although Gerry McNamara was around in some fashion for quite a long time too). Sather didn't make the playoffs for four years and turned the Rangers around eventually. Now hes on year 13. 

I don't know. We need someone who has a long term vision who can stay and develop this team over the course of more than just five years.

We need a young up and coming exec, in the Alex Anthopolous mold.  I have no idea who that is, maybe it's Nonis?  If he's canned in 2.6 years well then, I guess not.  :-\

We need one? JFJ was a young and upcoming exec.

Well, JFJ has gone backwards and is now a scout.  So I wouldn't call him "up and coming" in any sense of the word.  He was an ownership puppet.

He was "up and coming" when we hired him years ago. He was seen as a young protoge. All I'm sayin is, "up and coming" isn't always the answer. I'd rather have a proven winner.

 

[Corn Flake]

We need a young up and coming exec, in the Alex Anthopolous mold.  I have no idea who that is, maybe it's Nonis?  If he's canned in 2.6 years well then, I guess not.  :-\

As Justin pointed out, we tried that and ended up with JFJ.  Remember that the 2nd choice was Steve Tambellini ... so either way, that approach back then was going to fail. Maybe if the Leafs had ended up with Fred Shero or Peter Chiarelli things would have been different... the up and coming star GM's who actually have had success.

I think Nonis could be that guy though. I think he brings a balance of experience but also hasn't truly had his chance to run a team long enough to show he can do it.  He helped get Van to the next level and Gillis gets most of the credit for that.