Carlyle: A team without goals is like a ship without a rudder

[GhostofPotvin29]

Man, I have a very different definition of "off the record" than LeBrun does. I'm sure whichever player he was talking to did as well.

And Kessel was overweight?  Is this something that was confirmed?  He says it as though it's just common knowledge but I don't recall this ever being confirmed as true.

 

[Kin]

Man, I have a very different definition of "off the record" than LeBrun does. I'm sure whichever player he was talking to did as well.

And Kessel was overweight?  Is this something that was confirmed?  He says it as though it's just common knowledge but I don't recall this ever being confirmed as true.

Given that "overweight" isn't really a technical term I have to assume it's meaning the fairly well agreed reality that Kessel was never the guy ESPN was going to ask to be in their Body issue.

That said, I think Lebrun is conflating two different things. Of all the guys on the team in recent memory, Kessel isn't the guy I'd point to as being treated particularly favourably.

 

[bustaheims]

Man, I have a very different definition of "off the record" than LeBrun does. I'm sure whichever player he was talking to did as well.

And Kessel was overweight?  Is this something that was confirmed?  He says it as though it's just common knowledge but I don't recall this ever being confirmed as true.

Also, if he was overweight, what does it say about the rest of the team when he still was among the highest scorers on the fitness tests?

 

[herman]

Of all the guys on the team in recent memory, Kessel isn't the guy I'd point to as being treated particularly favourably.

Perhaps he was simply given a lot of leeway by the coaching staff (mandated by Burke management), per Spott's 'off-the-record' comments at that coaches clinic.

 

[Kin]

Perhaps he was simply given a lot of leeway by the coaching staff (mandated by Burke management), per Spott's 'off-the-record' comments at that coaches clinic.

Leeway to do what?

 

[ZBBM]

Given that "overweight" isn't really a technical term I have to assume it's meaning the fairly well agreed reality that Kessel was never the guy ESPN was going to ask to be in their Body issue.

I think this is a fair assessment.  Kessel's body type is such that he looks "overweight" compared to a buff guy like Lupul.

As for LeBrun's comment, isn't a % body fat number the determining factor in whether a player is considered overweight?  Maybe Kessel came in overweight, even factoring in his body type, or maybe not, but we'd need to know an objective measurement to know that.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Man, I have a very different definition of "off the record" than LeBrun does. I'm sure whichever player he was talking to did as well.

And Kessel was overweight?  Is this something that was confirmed?  He says it as though it's just common knowledge but I don't recall this ever being confirmed as true.

Given that "overweight" isn't really a technical term I have to assume it's meaning the fairly well agreed reality that Kessel was never the guy ESPN was going to ask to be in their Body issue.

That said, I think Lebrun is conflating two different things. Of all the guys on the team in recent memory, Kessel isn't the guy I'd point to as being treated particularly favourably.

The way he used it I took it to mean "overweight" in the sense that he was over some objective weight level that he was expected by the team to be at.

 

[Frank E]

Man, I have a very different definition of "off the record" than LeBrun does. I'm sure whichever player he was talking to did as well.

And Kessel was overweight?  Is this something that was confirmed?  He says it as though it's just common knowledge but I don't recall this ever being confirmed as true.

Given that "overweight" isn't really a technical term I have to assume it's meaning the fairly well agreed reality that Kessel was never the guy ESPN was going to ask to be in their Body issue.

That said, I think Lebrun is conflating two different things. Of all the guys on the team in recent memory, Kessel isn't the guy I'd point to as being treated particularly favourably.

The way he used it I took it to mean "overweight" in the sense that he was over some objective weight level that he was expected by the team to be at.

Yeah, I mean, lets remember this is a player's quote, not Lebrun's opinion.

I'm sure the players know who got a pass, and who didn't.

 

[Kin]

The way he used it I took it to mean "overweight" in the sense that he was over some objective weight level that he was expected by the team to be at.

I doubt that's the case. I don't think teams set weight limits like that.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Man, I have a very different definition of "off the record" than LeBrun does. I'm sure whichever player he was talking to did as well.

And Kessel was overweight?  Is this something that was confirmed?  He says it as though it's just common knowledge but I don't recall this ever being confirmed as true.

Given that "overweight" isn't really a technical term I have to assume it's meaning the fairly well agreed reality that Kessel was never the guy ESPN was going to ask to be in their Body issue.

That said, I think Lebrun is conflating two different things. Of all the guys on the team in recent memory, Kessel isn't the guy I'd point to as being treated particularly favourably.

The way he used it I took it to mean "overweight" in the sense that he was over some objective weight level that he was expected by the team to be at.

Yeah, I mean, lets remember this is a player's quote, not Lebrun's opinion.

I'm sure the players know who got a pass, and who didn't.

To be clear, the overweight comment was Lebrun's comment, not Lebrun relaying what the anonymous player said.

 

[Frank E]

Yeah, I mean, lets remember this is a player's quote, not Lebrun's opinion.

I'm sure the players know who got a pass, and who didn't.

To be clear, the overweight comment was Lebrun's comment, not Lebrun relaying what the anonymous player said.

Oh.  Never mind then.  Carry on...

 

[herman]

Perhaps he was simply given a lot of leeway by the coaching staff (mandated by Burke management), per Spott's 'off-the-record' comments at that coaches clinic.

Leeway to do what?

Whatever he wanted, would be my guess. Just speculating, but it could be like Kessel was Burke's crown prince on the team, so coaches had to defer to the player's whims and bend their own rules to accommodate him. At least that's what our former coaches and the mainstream media repeatedly insinuated last year (see Lieweke's remarks, Spott's coaching tips, Seigel's hissy fit, Wilson's backseat commentary). Grains of salt required for all these claims, but that's a lot of smoke for a non-fire.

I loved Kessel as a player, but he was traded with quite a heavy hint of desperation.

 

[Kin]

Whatever he wanted, would be my guess. Just speculating, but it could be like Kessel was Burke's crown prince on the team, so coaches had to defer to the player's whims and bend their own rules to accommodate him. At least that's what our former coaches and the mainstream media repeatedly insinuated last year (see Lieweke's remarks, Spott's coaching tips, Seigel's hissy fit, Wilson's backseat commentary). Grains of salt required for all these claims, but that's a lot of smoke for a non-fire.

Except I'm asking specifically. Did he miss practices? Refuse to take part in drills? Did he miss team flights? Did he set-up a farm-to-table pop-up serving authentic Wisconsin cuisine in between periods?

 

[herman]

Whatever he wanted, would be my guess. Just speculating, but it could be like Kessel was Burke's crown prince on the team, so coaches had to defer to the player's whims and bend their own rules to accommodate him. At least that's what our former coaches and the mainstream media repeatedly insinuated last year (see Lieweke's remarks, Spott's coaching tips, Seigel's hissy fit, Wilson's backseat commentary). Grains of salt required for all these claims, but that's a lot of smoke for a non-fire.

Except I'm asking specifically. Did he miss practices? Refuse to take part in drills? Did he miss team flights? Did he set-up a farm-to-table pop-up serving authentic Wisconsin cuisine in between periods?

I'm not privy to that level of information.

Under Carlyle it was pretty clear he didn't following the coaching (not that it would've helped him or the team), and that he and his linemates never faced consequences for that. I think he really tried under Horachek, but, to quote Bob McKenzie, the toothpaste was already out of the tube.

 

[mr grieves]

LeBrun (link):

I had a comment from a Leafs player about a month ago. We were chatting off the record, but I don?t mind sharing this part. He said, ?you know the difference between this year and last year? I feel like everyone is being treated equally. That no one is getting special favours.? He goes, ?when you do that, you get a much bigger buy in from the whole group.?That was his comment, and that is what Babcock is doing. Now, I will say this: It?s obviously easier to do when Phil Kessel is gone. That?s not a shot at Kessel, but that was really the elephant in the room ? that your most talented player shows up at camp overweight, and what are you going to do about it? Frankly, I would've paid to have seen Mike Babcock handle that this year. It would've been fun.

Again, let?s be fair. When you have an eight-year contract, you have the mandate to make a decision without fearing, like many coaches around the league do, about what it means to your own future. I mean, stability financially and stability in term, and stability in your reputation ? that has a lot to do with what a coach is willing to do in this league and what a coach isn't.

The "special favors" bit is a bit hard to figure out, but can't this just be read to mean that this is a team largely composed of marginal NHLers? Which of these talents would a coach give extra leeway to? No one can do anything that would merit it.

 

[Kin]

Under Carlyle it was pretty clear he didn't following the coaching (not that it would've helped him or the team), and that he and his linemates never faced consequences for that. I think he really tried under Horachek, but, to quote Bob McKenzie, the toothpaste was already out of the tube.

I mean, I guess I'd just disagree and say that I don't think is clear that Kessel didn't "follow the coaching" under Carlyle.

 

[Kin]

The "special favors" bit is a bit hard to figure out, but can't this just be read to mean that this is a team largely composed of marginal NHLers? Which of these talents would a coach give extra leeway to? No one can do anything that would merit it.

There's a great quote(I forget who from, maybe Phil Sims) who was talking about Bill Parcells when he coached the NY Giants who said "He didn't treat everyone equally but he did treat everyone fairly". Meaning, essentially, that Parcells couldn't coach Lawrence Taylor and his ego/outlook/attitude the same way he did everyone else but that Parcells had expectations for each player individually and held them to that.

This Lou Lamoriello "Everyone has to be exactly the same" stuff doesn't really strike me as smart personnel management.

 

[Bullfrog]

Except I'm asking specifically. Did he miss practices? Refuse to take part in drills? Did he miss team flights? Did he set-up a farm-to-table pop-up serving authentic Wisconsin cuisine in between periods?

He was first off the ice.  :-\

 

[CarltonTheBear]

This Lou Lamoriello "Everyone has to be exactly the same" stuff doesn't really strike me as smart personnel management.

I never made this connection before, and it's really complete speculation, but the Devils did have a pretty hard time retaining their star talent. Gomez, Niedermayer, Parise, Kovalchuk, all bolted.

 

[herman]

I mean, I guess I'd just disagree and say that I don't think is clear that Kessel didn't "follow the coaching" under Carlyle.

Ok.

The "special favors" bit is a bit hard to figure out, but can't this just be read to mean that this is a team largely composed of marginal NHLers? Which of these talents would a coach give extra leeway to? No one can do anything that would merit it.

There's a great quote(I forget who from, maybe Phil Sims) who was talking about Bill Parcells when he coached the NY Giants who said "He didn't treat everyone equally but he did treat everyone fairly". Meaning, essentially, that Parcells couldn't coach Lawrence Taylor and his ego/outlook/attitude the same way he did everyone else but that Parcells had expectations for each player individually and held them to that.

This Lou Lamoriello "Everyone has to be exactly the same" stuff doesn't really strike me as smart personnel management.

It's Equality vs. Equity.

The Lou Lamoriello way does leave quite a bit to be desired. No team is made up of faceless clonetroopers.

Moving Kessel out had an equalizing effect that made sure there wasn't any backwards power dynamic in the dressing room.