Carlyle Extended/Randy's Revenge

[Kin]

Although with that said I have fairly deep reservations that any coach could come in and flip a switch right now.

There's probably some truth in that, but, I don't think too many people are expecting that. Give the team a look with an interim coach with a different perspective for half the season, and I feel like that will give the front office a good opportunity to get a more accurate gauge on what they have in terms of the guys on the ice. Obviously, we'd be unlikely to see an instant reversal (though, the Ducks saw a pretty significant swing pretty quickly, so, it's not impossible), but, it should provide enough information to make a coaching neutral evaluation.

Yeah, I suppose by "flip a switch" I maybe implied more immediacy than I should have. What I more meant, I suppose, is that that I have real doubts that any coach is going to come in here and change the system these guys play and have it result in change enough that more significant player change won't also be needed.

You know the sorts of immediate bounces you're talking about can happen and I suppose it's true here too but I tend to think that can be for a whole host of reasons beyond a fundamental shift in how the team plays.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

The talent argument just isn't washing anymore. Just look at the talent disparity in the WJHC. Denmark was no match for Canada but they could at least organize a breakout play. The Leafs look like a peewee house league team against even the worst ranked teams in the league. Put aside statistics for 2 seconds and just watch the game. Watch the other team. Look at how organized they look compared to the Leafs. The players have just flat out stopped listening to the coaching staff and it's probably because what he's asking them to do is straight up BS. I'm sure Randy is a super swell guy but he's a lousy coach and he needs to go. Improving the talent of a team with a broken system is like bailing a sinking boat with a spoon. It'll work for a bit, but she's still gonna sink.

Well said.

 

[freer]

IMO

RC should of been fired last season because he lost the team after the victory in LA. His system doesn't work here, and it did not work well ANA. Yes he one the CUP there but he had talent that would of won by their selves. Mirtle can write all the articles about how bad the team is playing. Unless Shanny is willing to make a change nothing is going to happen.

 

[bustaheims]

Yeah, I suppose by "flip a switch" I maybe implied more immediacy than I should have. What I more meant, I suppose, is that that I have real doubts that any coach is going to come in here and change the system these guys play and have it result in change enough that more significant player change won't also be needed.

You know the sorts of immediate bounces you're talking about can happen and I suppose it's true here too but I tend to think that can be for a whole host of reasons beyond a fundamental shift in how the team plays.

Well, for cap reasons alone, there may need to be some pretty significant moves made to change up the roster, but, in terms of improvement, I'm not convinced the cuts have to be as deep as some. I think a lot of what's ailing the team can be improved through a change in tactics that includes a significant change in the way lines are constructed. Obviously, filling the couple of obvious major holes in the lineup would go a long way, but, I think there's a lot more good than bad on the roster right now.

 

[Kin]

Well, for cap reasons alone, there may need to be some pretty significant moves made to change up the roster, but, in terms of improvement, I'm not convinced the cuts have to be as deep as some. I think a lot of what's ailing the team can be improved through a change in tactics that includes a significant change in the way lines are constructed. Obviously, filling the couple of obvious major holes in the lineup would go a long way, but, I think there's a lot more good than bad on the roster right now.

Well, and this is where we get back to me being in broken record mode where I agree that a new coach could get better results than what we're seeing now I don't for a second believe that this is the core of a group that can really be one of the better teams in the league which, ultimately, is the goal.

 

[moon111]

Leafs have talent but not the discipline.  Fire coach.  Done.

 

[bustaheims]

Well, and this is where we get back to me being in broken record mode where I agree that a new coach could get better results than what we're seeing now I don't for a second believe that this is the core of a group that can really be one of the better teams in the league which, ultimately, is the goal.

Maybe not, but, I feel like a number of pieces of this core could be part of that. Not the group as a whole as it's currently constructed, sure, but, I think with a couple of additions/subtractions, they could be. I don't feel like it needs to be completely blown up, but, rather, it needs to be massaged and reshaped.

 

[Kin]

Maybe not, but, I feel like a number of pieces of this core could be part of that. Not the group as a whole as it's currently constructed, sure, but, I think with a couple of additions/subtractions, they could be. I don't feel like it needs to be completely blown up, but, rather, it needs to be massaged and reshaped.

Sure but keeping in mind the reality of the cap situation combined with the general difficulty any team will have in terms of attracting the kind of missing pieces we're talking about via free agency and throw in the inherent quality-in/quality-out problem with trying to make those changes via trade and you're right back to the question of how to bridge that gap short of trying to luck out with middle-low first round picks.

 

[dappleganger]

In some ways, I think Randy is too good for this team.

 

[L K]

Honestly, I'm disappointed.  To me, there should have been a move today.  I feel like they are hiding behind the World Juniors right now.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Maybe not, but, I feel like a number of pieces of this core could be part of that. Not the group as a whole as it's currently constructed, sure, but, I think with a couple of additions/subtractions, they could be. I don't feel like it needs to be completely blown up, but, rather, it needs to be massaged and reshaped.

Sure but keeping in mind the reality of the cap situation combined with the general difficulty any team will have in terms of attracting the kind of missing pieces we're talking about via free agency and throw in the inherent quality-in/quality-out problem with trying to make those changes via trade and you're right back to the question of how to bridge that gap short of trying to luck out with middle-low first round picks.

Not that it has anything to do with the thread or what you're talking about, but did anyone realize that the Oilers are actually in a somewhat tight cap situation?

How is that even possible?

 

[Kin]

Not that it has anything to do with the thread or what you're talking about, but did anyone realize that the Oilers are actually in a somewhat tight cap situation?

How is that even possible?

That's somewhat bogus because of the entry level deals to Yakupov and Schultz, I think. Realistically they've got 10-12 million in cap room.

As to the general question I think it's important to remember that there's not that much room between the cap and the floor and the Oilers being willing to over pay any 3-4 million dollar a year UFA who's willing to go there is why they're not scraping the bottom.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Honestly, I'm disappointed.  To me, there should have been a move today.  I feel like they are hiding behind the World Juniors right now.

Would be a good time to maybe do it when so much attention will be on Gold Medal game.

 

[L K]

Honestly, I'm disappointed.  To me, there should have been a move today.  I feel like they are hiding behind the World Juniors right now.

Would be a good time to maybe do it when so much attention will be on Gold Medal game.

Wednesday could look extremely ugly if no moves are made, Kadri is still out and the ACC crowd gets a trade-off of Team Canada vs. Russia and see a pile of garbage from the Leafs against Washington.  Really, really ugly.

 

[bustaheims]

Wednesday could look extremely ugly if no moves are made, Kadri is still out and the ACC crowd gets a trade-off of Team Canada vs. Russia and see a pile of garbage from the Leafs against Washington.  Really, really ugly.

Looking at the schedule, part of me wonders if maybe they're keeping Carlyle around for a bit so that the new coach doesn't have to start his tenure with a brutal West Coast trip.

 

[L K]

Wednesday could look extremely ugly if no moves are made, Kadri is still out and the ACC crowd gets a trade-off of Team Canada vs. Russia and see a pile of garbage from the Leafs against Washington.  Really, really ugly.

Looking at the schedule, part of me wonders if maybe they're keeping Carlyle around for a bit so that the new coach doesn't have to start his tenure with a brutal West Coast trip.

That's fair, although with only 2 games between the Saturday night loss and the start of that road trip, 8 days might have been a decent time for some new approach discussions by the interim head coach.

 

[MetalRaven]

Well, for cap reasons alone, there may need to be some pretty significant moves made to change up the roster, but, in terms of improvement, I'm not convinced the cuts have to be as deep as some. I think a lot of what's ailing the team can be improved through a change in tactics that includes a significant change in the way lines are constructed. Obviously, filling the couple of obvious major holes in the lineup would go a long way, but, I think there's a lot more good than bad on the roster right now.

Well, and this is where we get back to me being in broken record mode where I agree that a new coach could get better results than what we're seeing now I don't for a second believe that this is the core of a group that can really be one of the better teams in the league which, ultimately, is the goal.

The reason why you're in broken record mode is that for some reason a lot of people are intent on blaming one element over the other when both are broken. I believe we can all agree that a coaching change will not make the Leafs contenders. I also believe most people would agree that player changes alone won't work either.

I think thats the divide between us as a forum. Some people still sound like they believe that RC can get us a cup with the right personnel. Rather then argue only my point I have on more then one occasion asked anyone here what it is they see that RC is doing well as a coach.
Either people hate me, feel no need to get into it, or simply can't answer me. I don't think people hate me, everyone has lots of time to defend him in other ways...so I have to assume that no one can say "This is why RC is a good coach" other then, he won a cup with the Ducks.

Here are my points: 1) Many coaches have won 1 Stanley Cup (Maurice won a cup with a much less talented CAR team then ANH)
                              2) In science nothing is proven unless its repeatable.
                              3) "RC is a coach that can help you win a Stanley Cup" UNPROVEN!
                              4) "RC is a coach who teaches a system that increases shots against and has shown to be ineffective" PROVEN!

As has been said many times ANH had very similar issues under RC by the end of his tenure with the team.

So RC is an issue. We can see that. Saying hes the only issue is as incorrect as saying its all the players fault. RC would do better with better players? So would any coach.

I ask again what makes RC a good coach?

 

[Kin]

I don't have the time to answer the above fully but I'll just point out that it was Laviolette and not Maurice who won the cup in Carolina.

 

[dappleganger]

Maybe the poster was a little confused because Maurice did coach the Canes to the Stanley Cup Finals in '02, losing to Detroit.

 

[MetalRaven]

I don't have the time to answer the above fully but I'll just point out that it was Laviolette and not Maurice who won the cup in Carolina.

Sorry you are correct Laviolette then...same point. Name changes point remains. Many coaches were able to do it once then never again. I would like some one to say why they believe RC is more then a 'one hit wonder' so to speak.

(and yeah I got confused because Maurice beat the Leafs then failed against detroit but then CAR won it against EDM but Maurice had been fired by that point)