Coronavirus

[Kin]

Let alone the fact that my girlfriend literally can't get surgery to remove a cyst that is growing more and more and causes her more and more pain because hospitals are overwhelmed. This wouldn't be happening if we did things right the first time, so now we don't know when she can get it out or what risk this poses by waiting on the surgery. This is very angering to me.

Yeah. I genuinely don't want to sound insensitive to parents having to deal with home-schooling or businesses trying to figure out how to stay afloat but I know people who are having cancer treatments delayed, surgeries postponed, doctors trying to diagnose serious issues remotely so as not to risk exposure...like, things need to get better before we can move on to smaller issues.

 

[Peter D.]

a) I think you need to change the second pediatrician to someone that has a brain and heart.

As one of the top paediatric respirologists in the country, I think he's okay in both respects.

All in all, I think the virus is a constant moving target that I can't entirely blame the government for constantly shifting the goal posts in trying to appease all parties.  COVIDZero is never going to happen, so lockdowns will only do so much.  School and Christmas, which were pinned as the biggest culprits, are now 6+ weeks out, and although we've seen cases stabilize, they haven't come below the 1K threshold they are aiming for.  And the variants didn't just enter the country on their own, so there is that issue too. 

On a personal level, 2 months ago we didn't have anyone close to us get COVID.  Since then, 11 close family members and 4 close friends have gotten it.  The most ironic thing is that each of those individuals and/or families were the most concerned about getting it and were the most diligent and prudent in trying to avoid it.  :-\ 

 

[OldTimeHockey]

The most ironic thing is that each of those individuals and/or families were the most concerned about getting it and were the most diligent and prudent in trying to avoid it.  :-\

My wife and I had a conversation about that last night. Many people feel they are the most diligent they can be(and I'm not doubting the people you are speaking of, just speaking in general). But, when you start digging down, you find that there's a lot of exceptions to their rules. Everyone feels their exceptions are more important than someone else's exceptions.
We have acquaintances that have been extremely strict regarding who their children can see and can't see. But, due to mental health day last week, they allowed their teenage daughter to have lunch at a friend's house. I get that mental health is important, but keep it zipped when it's time to criticize someone else's "exceptions".

 

[Kin]

COVIDZero is never going to happen, so lockdowns will only do so much.

I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you think Canada can't achieve what countries like New Zealand, Australia and more have.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Let alone the fact that my girlfriend literally can't get surgery to remove a cyst that is growing more and more and causes her more and more pain because hospitals are overwhelmed. This wouldn't be happening if we did things right the first time, so now we don't know when she can get it out or what risk this poses by waiting on the surgery. This is very angering to me.

Yeah. I genuinely don't want to sound insensitive to parents having to deal with home-schooling or businesses trying to figure out how to stay afloat but I know people who are having cancer treatments delayed, surgeries postponed, doctors trying to diagnose serious issues remotely so as not to risk exposure...like, things need to get better before we can move on to smaller issues.

People have a hard time seeing past the end of their nose. So, what appears to be small problems to you and I, are the largest problems in their lives right now. They view it as life or death for them as well. It's selfish, but that's human nature.

 

[Bender]

a) I think you need to change the second pediatrician to someone that has a brain and heart.

As one of the top paediatric respirologists in the country, I think he's okay in both respects.

All in all, I think the virus is a constant moving target that I can't entirely blame the government for constantly shifting the goal posts in trying to appease all parties.  COVIDZero is never going to happen, so lockdowns will only do so much.  School and Christmas, which were pinned as the biggest culprits, are now 6+ weeks out, and although we've seen cases stabilize, they haven't come below the 1K threshold they are aiming for.  And the variants didn't just enter the country on their own, so there is that issue too. 

On a personal level, 2 months ago we didn't have anyone close to us get COVID.  Since then, 11 close family members and 4 close friends have gotten it.  The most ironic thing is that each of those individuals and/or families were the most concerned about getting it and were the most diligent and prudent in trying to avoid it.  :-\

You can either throw up your hands and roll over or you can aim for what enough countries have done to prove this all just comes down to political will. Like I said the more cases you have the more chance for mutation the more chance you have for the virus to become more transmissible, lethal and able to evade vaccines. We have vaccines on our door step and the solution isn't to redouble our efforts and instead potentially produce a variant worse than the South African one? If efficacy goes down to 20 or 30% then this was all for naught and we will have tripped literally meters from a marathon finish. This is not a good road to go down.

And again, you still run into the problem of people like my girlfriend or various others who can't get surgery for cysts and tumours etc. growing inside of them because hospitals are overwhelmed. My friend had a heart attack recently and there were no beds for her so they kept her next to an old man with dementia who had COVID calling for his wife. There were outbreaks on every ward except cardiac, where she was waiting on emergency stent surgery. This is not tenable and this will not change unless there is some level of control, and getting lax about things won't help that.

 

[Peter D.]

I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you think Canada can't achieve what countries like New Zealand, Australia and more have.

New Zealand and Australia are isolated countries that actually imposed strict travel restrictions.  They, along with the few other countries, are more the exception than the rule.  Every other country should be aspiring and enacting the same measures as them that being the case.

As long as international flights were continued to be allowed into the country, including multiple flights each day from countries hardest hit from the virus, it's going to continue swirling and not just go away.

 

[Bullfrog]

Canada literally borders one other country (apologies to Denmark/Greenland). How are New Zealand and Australia more isolated than us? Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines are pretty close to Australia (relatively speaking. What, three-hour flight?)

 

[bustaheims]

Canada literally borders one other country (apologies to Denmark/Greenland). How are New Zealand and Australia more isolated than us? Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines are pretty close to Australia (relatively speaking. What, three-hour flight?)

The issue for us is the whole largest undefended land border on the planet, and how intertwined our economy is with the superspreaders to the south.

 

[rdowdall]

Let alone the fact that my girlfriend literally can't get surgery to remove a cyst that is growing more and more and causes her more and more pain because hospitals are overwhelmed. This wouldn't be happening if we did things right the first time, so now we don't know when she can get it out or what risk this poses by waiting on the surgery. This is very angering to me.

Yeah. I genuinely don't want to sound insensitive to parents having to deal with home-schooling or businesses trying to figure out how to stay afloat but I know people who are having cancer treatments delayed, surgeries postponed, doctors trying to diagnose serious issues remotely so as not to risk exposure...like, things need to get better before we can move on to smaller issues.

People have a hard time seeing past the end of their nose. So, what appears to be small problems to you and I, are the largest problems in their lives right now. They view it as life or death for them as well. It's selfish, but that's human nature.

We lost my father in law on August 23rd, 2020.  He died alone in a hospital from a heart attack.  He had cancer, and was receiving the treatments that he could but in the end the whole situation felt somewhat botched.  I'm not a doctor, so I can't really say.  I can say he was a good man, and he deserved a better end than he got, not having the people that loved him around him during his final days.  My wife did not get to say goodbye to her father.  I can understand the fear and anxiety that people who have medical conditions are experiencing right now.

I can also understand the fear and anxiety that a person who has lost their job and doesn't know how they are going to support their family would feel right now as well.  I can understand it, even though I am not going through it.  Not being able to provide for your kids, to give them the best life they can have, that's a tough thing to face.  I can also understand the stress of having extra teaching duties placed upon you, while trying to do your best at your job, so that you don't lose it could also place on you.  People are at the end of their ropes, with no end in sight, and there isn't a whole lot of ways that we have that we can help them. 

I feel the reason that this disease has turned the world upside down is because our society has a confused sense of survival.  We work and work to make more and more so that we can have more and more, and at the end of the day we only really need a small fraction of it.  That confusion is why as a group or society we cannot do the things that need to be done to get through times like these. 

 

[Kin]

New Zealand and Australia are isolated countries that actually imposed strict travel restrictions.  They, along with the few other countries, are more the exception than the rule.  Every other country should be aspiring and enacting the same measures as them that being the case.

As long as international flights were continued to be allowed into the country, including multiple flights each day from countries hardest hit from the virus, it's going to continue swirling and not just go away.

So I agree that there have been a lot of notable policy failures. Travel restrictions should have been in sooner, lockdowns should have been stricter, tracking and tracing needed to have been better done, better income supports and paid sick days...the works.

But why not at least try to do what Australia and New Zealand did and see what our results are? It's one thing to look at Australia and New Zealand and say "Well, their circumstances are different so their results with the same method are better" and it's another to be a Simpsons meme and say "Well, we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas".

And, just for what it's worth, as someone who lived for a bit in Australia the idea that it's significantly more isolated than Canada doesn't really match up with my own experiences of it. Basically everything in Australia they can't grow themselves needs to be imported and given Australia's climate that does account for a lot of stuff.

So long as the flow of goods from the border and via air are monitored and people who make those deliveries effectively quarantined, I really don't see any concrete reason we couldn't have the same success.

 

[Peter D.]

We lost my father in law on August 23rd, 2020.  He died alone in a hospital from a heart attack.  He had cancer, and was receiving the treatments that he could but in the end the whole situation felt somewhat botched.  I'm not a doctor, so I can't really say.  I can say he was a good man, and he deserved a better end than he got, not having the people that loved him around him during his final days.  My wife did not get to say goodbye to her father.  I can understand the fear and anxiety that people who have medical conditions are experiencing right now.

Ugh.  Sorry to hear.  Hate hearing stories like this, which are far too common these days.  There have been numerous people that we know who have said they'd rather take their chances with COVID than not getting to see their grandkids.  Can only imagine what it's like, from both the dying person and their family, to be completely isolated from each other in their final days and moments.

We've lost four people during COVID.  The first, and closest one, was my uncle just weeks after the pandemic was declared and things were completely halted.  To not be able to say your final goodbyes, pay your respects, nor be there for your closest family (in my case my cousins and aunt...mom's sister), is something that will live with all of us for a long, long time.  It will forever haunt my aunt that she couldn't give her husband a proper funeral and not have us, her closest loving family, surrounding her.

 

[Kin]

People have a hard time seeing past the end of their nose. So, what appears to be small problems to you and I, are the largest problems in their lives right now. They view it as life or death for them as well. It's selfish, but that's human nature.

But, like, I get selfishness. I appreciate it is a function of the human condition and that any planning needs to account for the fact that there are selfish people in the world.

The thing that frustrates me is that people who are acting against their own interests and the public interest. Or, if you prefer, people who are acting in their own short term interest without caring about their long term interest.

Like, we by now that not being strict in our lockdown measures and lifting them too soon just means we're going to need another lockdown in the future. We know that not doing our best to stamp it out will cost the government more in the long run when things need to shut down again. But it's pulling teeth to get some people and governments to look at anything other than their own immediate interests regardless of the damage it's doing.

 

[rdowdall]

People have a hard time seeing past the end of their nose. So, what appears to be small problems to you and I, are the largest problems in their lives right now. They view it as life or death for them as well. It's selfish, but that's human nature.

But, like, I get selfishness. I appreciate it is a function of the human condition and that any planning needs to account for the fact that there are selfish people in the world.

The thing that frustrates me is that people who are acting against their own interests and the public interest. Or, if you prefer, people who are acting in their own short term interest without caring about their long term interest.

Like, we by now that not being strict in our lockdown measures and lifting them too soon just means we're going to need another lockdown in the future. We know that not doing our best to stamp it out will cost the government more in the long run when things need to shut down again. But it's pulling teeth to get some people and governments to look at anything other than their own immediate interests regardless of the damage it's doing.

It's a human flaw.  There was a a study conducted where they offered people $10,000 today, or $50,000 in 6 months.  Most people take the $10,000.  The reason being that most of us can't imagine ourselves in the future, and therefore that person is no different than a stranger.  They don't want to give $50,000 to a stranger, so they take the money now.

That's a scenario where you know the outcome.  I agree with you assessment of the situation and I know that's what is going to happen.  However, I think there is enough misinformation out there where people can rationalize a whole host of better scenarios to mitigate the impacts on that future stranger.     

 

[Peter D.]

So I agree that there have been a lot of notable policy failures. Travel restrictions should have been in sooner, lockdowns should have been stricter, tracking and tracing needed to have been better done, better income supports and paid sick days...the works.

But why not at least try to do what Australia and New Zealand did and see what our results are? It's one thing to look at Australia and New Zealand and say "Well, their circumstances are different so their results with the same method are better" and it's another to be a Simpsons meme and say "Well, we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas".

And, just for what it's worth, as someone who lived for a bit in Australia the idea that it's significantly more isolated than Canada doesn't really match up with my own experiences of it. Basically everything in Australia they can't grow themselves needs to be imported and given Australia's climate that does account for a lot of stuff.

So long as the flow of goods from the border and via air are monitored and people who make those deliveries effectively quarantined, I really don't see any concrete reason we couldn't have the same success.

I don't disagree, although I think we're way too far in the game now.  This should have been done from the onset. 

Canada shares the largest land border in the world, whereas New Zealand and Australia are surrounded by water, so that was one inference I was making in distinguishing the two.  Also, from my understanding, those two completely shut down travel to and from the country (save for the import of goods as you referenced to). 

Whereas here in Canada, pleasure air travel was never restricted.  I think that is a big difference.  I couldn't drive to the States, but I could certainly fly there.  We've heard stories of many people saying, "Eff this," and flew over to Europe the first chance they got back in July/August. 

 

[Kin]

Whereas here in Canada, pleasure air travel was never restricted.  I think that is a big difference.  I couldn't drive to the States, but I could certainly fly there.  We've heard stories of many people saying, "Eff this," and flew over to Europe the first chance they got back in July/August.

Those are big differences but where I disagree is the idea that we've passed some sort of point of no return. Australia, and in particular the part where I lived, had a very very bad earlier time with the virus but they clamped down via lockdown and contact tracing and have effectively eliminated it. They gave us the roadmap for it and I really don't think anything they did is out of our reach.

 

[rdowdall]

We lost my father in law on August 23rd, 2020.  He died alone in a hospital from a heart attack.  He had cancer, and was receiving the treatments that he could but in the end the whole situation felt somewhat botched.  I'm not a doctor, so I can't really say.  I can say he was a good man, and he deserved a better end than he got, not having the people that loved him around him during his final days.  My wife did not get to say goodbye to her father.  I can understand the fear and anxiety that people who have medical conditions are experiencing right now.

Ugh.  Sorry to hear.  Hate hearing stories like this, which are far too common these days.  There have been numerous people that we know who have said they'd rather take their chances with COVID than not getting to see their grandkids.  Can only imagine what it's like, from both the dying person and their family, to be completely isolated from each other in their final days and moments.

We've lost four people during COVID.  The first, and closest one, was my uncle just weeks after the pandemic was declared and things were completely halted.  To not be able to say your final goodbyes, pay your respects, nor be there for your closest family (in my case my cousins and aunt...mom's sister), is something that will live with all of us for a long, long time.  It will forever haunt my aunt that she couldn't give her husband a proper funeral and not have us, her closest loving family, surrounding her.

Sorry for your loss as well.  There is always a feeling of guilt when it comes to death.  This situation hasn't lessoned that feeling of guilt.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

It's a human flaw.  There was a a study conducted where they offered people $10,000 today, or $50,000 in 6 months.  Most people take the $10,000.  The reason being that most of us can't imagine ourselves in the future, and therefore that person is no different than a stranger.  They don't want to give $50,000 to a stranger, so they take the money now.

Covid is proving a nice dry run for the climate disaster around the corner. It's pretty much showing that unless lifestyle changes can be made in concert with rampant here and now capitalism, the whole exercise is going to involve pushing a pretty big boulder uphill.

 

[bustaheims]

Those are big differences but where I disagree is the idea that we've passed some sort of point of no return. Australia, and in particular the part where I lived, had a very very bad earlier time with the virus but they clamped down via lockdown and contact tracing and have effectively eliminated it. They gave us the roadmap for it and I really don't think anything they did is out of our reach.

Yeah. While we have different complicating factors, it certainly doesn't hurt to try following their lead. I can't see it making things worse. Worst case scenario is pretty much that we end up not moving the needle much.

 

[Andy007]

So I agree that there have been a lot of notable policy failures. Travel restrictions should have been in sooner, lockdowns should have been stricter, tracking and tracing needed to have been better done, better income supports and paid sick days...the works.

But why not at least try to do what Australia and New Zealand did and see what our results are? It's one thing to look at Australia and New Zealand and say "Well, their circumstances are different so their results with the same method are better" and it's another to be a Simpsons meme and say "Well, we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas".

And, just for what it's worth, as someone who lived for a bit in Australia the idea that it's significantly more isolated than Canada doesn't really match up with my own experiences of it. Basically everything in Australia they can't grow themselves needs to be imported and given Australia's climate that does account for a lot of stuff.

So long as the flow of goods from the border and via air are monitored and people who make those deliveries effectively quarantined, I really don't see any concrete reason we couldn't have the same success.

I don't disagree, although I think we're way too far in the game now.  This should have been done from the onset. 

Whereas here in Canada, pleasure air travel was never restricted.  I think that is a big difference.  I couldn't drive to the States, but I could certainly fly there.  We've heard stories of many people saying, "Eff this," and flew over to Europe the first chance they got back in July/August.

This is bang on. All of the talk of a "non-essential travel" is nonsense; it just doesn't exist. A non resident or citizen from any country that flies into Toronto is allowed to enter for any reason, so long as they have a reason (i.e. boyfriend/girlfriend or family member living here).

But as we speak, Pearson airport is still allowing daily and near daily flights from Brazil, India, Mexico, USA, UK, Germany, Ireland etc. The mandatory testing isn't instantaneous; people are allowed to immediately leave and arrange on their own transportation from the airport and test results come the following day, or later. Same procedure for the hotel stay, which hasn't even been implemented yet.

So the recent restrictions imposed still don't compare to what New Zealand did. They actually stopped allowing visitors into their country; it wasn't simply a matter of their land being isolated.