David Clarkson - Signs with Maple Leafs

[Corn Flake]

Yeah, just curious.  Was wondering if there would be any benefit to the team.

Also, anyone sort of feel like Clarkson/Bolland is a little reminiscent of the summer we signed Roberts/Corson?

Yup. Both are quite a bit younger than the previous era guys were, no?

Yep, but neither player comes close to being as good as Gary Roberts.

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Clarkson doesn't come with the history Roberts did when he got here but the player he is on the day he signed with the Leafs I think they are very similar with Clarkson actually having arguably more talent.

Comparing Bolland to Roberts doesn't make a lot of sense.  Except Bolland has TWO cups.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Comparing Bolland to Roberts doesn't make a lot of sense.  Except Bolland has TWO cups.

(*chuckles*)  You mean "Cups".  Er, right!

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Yeah, just curious.  Was wondering if there would be any benefit to the team.

Also, anyone sort of feel like Clarkson/Bolland is a little reminiscent of the summer we signed Roberts/Corson?

Yup. Both are quite a bit younger than the previous era guys were, no?

Yep, but neither player comes close to being as good as Gary Roberts.

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Clarkson doesn't come with the history Roberts did when he got here but the player he is on the day he signed with the Leafs I think they are very similar with Clarkson actually having arguably more talent.

Clarkson more talented than a former 50-goal scorer with 438 career goals...?

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Comparing Bolland to Roberts doesn't make a lot of sense.  Except Bolland has TWO cups.

(*Chuckles*)  You mean "Cups".  Er, right!

No, he means cups.  The guy has so much testicular fortitude that each requires its own cup.

 

[maplesyrup]

I'm increasingly hating player comparisons.  :-\

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Yeah, just curious.  Was wondering if there would be any benefit to the team.

Also, anyone sort of feel like Clarkson/Bolland is a little reminiscent of the summer we signed Roberts/Corson?

Yup. Both are quite a bit younger than the previous era guys were, no?

Yep, but neither player comes close to being as good as Gary Roberts.

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Clarkson doesn't come with the history Roberts did when he got here but the player he is on the day he signed with the Leafs I think they are very similar with Clarkson actually having arguably more talent.

Comparing Bolland to Roberts doesn't make a lot of sense.  Except Bolland has TWO cups.

I don't agree. Gary, after coming to Toronto, did not get less than 48 points in a season(other than the year he was injured for most of it). Clarkson on the other hand is 29 and has yet to even top 46 points.

The only thing I see Clarkson having on Roberts is he's 5 years younger.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yeah, just curious.  Was wondering if there would be any benefit to the team.

Also, anyone sort of feel like Clarkson/Bolland is a little reminiscent of the summer we signed Roberts/Corson?

Yup. Both are quite a bit younger than the previous era guys were, no?

Yep, but neither player comes close to being as good as Gary Roberts.

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Clarkson doesn't come with the history Roberts did when he got here but the player he is on the day he signed with the Leafs I think they are very similar with Clarkson actually having arguably more talent.

Clarkson has never put up a season of PPG like Roberts did in his season before joining the Leafs, or his first season with the Leafs.  Roberts first 2 seasons in Toronto he had PPG's of .65 and .70.  Clarkson's career best is .58 so far, and that wasn't even his lockout shortened season.

For Gary Roberts, these were seasons when he was 35 & 36 and were lower than when he was younger.

You think Clarkson is going to all of a sudden start producing more than that in his early 30s?

 

[Corn Flake]

Clarkson more talented than a former 50-goal scorer with 438 career goals...?

53 goals he scored NINE seasons before coming to Toronto.

Trying to compare Roberts in Toronto to Clarkson coming to Toronto here.

 

[Corn Flake]

Clarkson has never put up a season of PPG like Roberts did in his season before joining the Leafs, or his first season with the Leafs.  Roberts first 2 seasons in Toronto he had PPG's of .65 and .70.  Clarkson's career best is .58 so far, and that wasn't even his lockout shortened season.

For Gary Roberts, these were seasons when he was 35 & 36 and were lower than when he was younger.

You think Clarkson is going to all of a sudden start producing more than that in his early 30s?

53 points in 69 games (his final year in Carolina) is not PPG.

Do I think Clarkson can meet or exceed Roberts' point record of 53 as a Leaf? Uh, yes.  He also put up 29 goals with Mats Sundin as his centre to get there.  Let's play it safe here and assume Clarkson didn't have a centre of that ilk to play with in NJ.

Clarkson suddenly started producing in his very late twenties. What's to say he won't get a little bit better? He really doesn't have far to go on the points side. The assumption he will suddenly decline because he is now 30 isn't really realistic.  Clarkson was also on a team that produced the 3rd least goals per game in the league.  Coming to the team that produced the 6th most isn't going to help his point totals?  Yes. Yes it will.

Comparing talent.. Clarkson has more speed and better hands than Roberts did.  That's all I meant. All the other intangibles are basically the same. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Clarkson has never put up a season of PPG like Roberts did in his season before joining the Leafs, or his first season with the Leafs.  Roberts first 2 seasons in Toronto he had PPG's of .65 and .70.  Clarkson's career best is .58 so far, and that wasn't even his lockout shortened season.

For Gary Roberts, these were seasons when he was 35 & 36 and were lower than when he was younger.

You think Clarkson is going to all of a sudden start producing more than that in his early 30s?

53 points in 69 games (his final year in Carolina) is not PPG.

Do I think Clarkson can meet or exceed Roberts' point record of 53 as a Leaf? Uh, yes.  He also put up 29 goals with Mats Sundin as his centre to get there.  Let's play it safe here and assume Clarkson didn't have a centre of that ilk to play with in NJ.

Clarkson suddenly started producing in his very late twenties. What's to say he won't get a little bit better? He really doesn't have far to go on the points side. The assumption he will suddenly decline because he is now 30 isn't really realistic.  Clarkson was also on a team that produced the 3rd least goals per game in the league.  Coming to the team that produced the 6th most isn't going to help his point totals?  Yes. Yes it will.

Comparing talent.. Clarkson has more speed and better hands than Roberts did.  That's all I meant. All the other intangibles are basically the same.

I never said his season in Carolina was point-per-game.

Well I'm safe in assuming Gary Roberts continued to put up points because of his skill in doing so as he had done his entire career beforehand, not simply because he had Mats Sundin in Toronto.  Clarkson hasn't, and he won't have a centre the ilk of Mats Sundin in Toronto to help his stats anyways.

If Roberts, with a track record of putting up way more points than Clarkson, even at age 34-35, needed Mats Sundin to reach 50+ points with the Leafs, how do you figure Clarkson is going to meet or exceed that number without a player like Mats Sundin?  There's no basis for thinking that, nothing in Clarkson's numbers to suggest it.

Clarkson has had two seasons where his PPG came somewhat near some of Roberts' worst seasons.  Who said Clarkson was going to suddenly decline?  We were debating whether or not he is as good as Gary Roberts was when he came to the Leafs.  He doesn't need to decline to be not as good as Gary Roberts was, he has to improve to come close to as good.

As others have pointed out, maybe he was part of the reason they were offensively challenged.  I don't know, I didn't watch all of their games (I know as a team they were unlucky, and didn't have Kovalchuk all season).

Maybe he does have better hands and speed, but all I care about is how he can produce, and he has never shown, and I don't expect he will now, that he can produce at the same level as Gary Roberts. 

I'd be ecstatic if he did, though.

 

[Kin]

Clarkson more talented than a former 50-goal scorer with 438 career goals...?

53 goals he scored NINE seasons before coming to Toronto.

Yeah, workout buff aside, Roberts was a very different player pre and post neck injury.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Clarkson more talented than a former 50-goal scorer with 438 career goals...?

53 goals he scored NINE seasons before coming to Toronto.

Trying to compare Roberts in Toronto to Clarkson coming to Toronto here.

Disregarding the fact that you weren't that specific when you said that Clarkson had arguably more talent than Roberts, look at Roberts' and Clarkson's stats for the 3 seasons prior to joining the Leafs:

Roberts
207 Games  57 Goals  87 Assists  144 Points  343 PIM

Clarkson
210 Games  57 Goals  31 Assists  88 Points  332 PIM

I really don't know how the guy with barely more than a third as many assists as the other and 40% less PPG can remotely be argued to be the more talented one.

I wouldn't be surprised if Clarkson scores less than half as many goals in his entire career as Roberts did, and the assists are going to be way more lopsided in Roberts' favour than that.

 

[Kin]

Disregarding the fact that you weren't that specific when you said that Clarkson had arguably more talent than Roberts, look at Roberts' and Clarkson's stats for the 3 seasons prior to joining the Leafs:

To be fair, he kind of was:

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Clarkson doesn't come with the history Roberts did when he got here but the player he is on the day he signed with the Leafs I think they are very similar with Clarkson actually having arguably more talent.

Anyways, I think the "three years prior" thing is a little unfair to the matter at hand because Roberts was clearly on the decline as a matter of age. He wasn't the player he was at 30 or 32 when he got to Toronto but he was still very effective in his role for quite a few years.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Disregarding the fact that you weren't that specific when you said that Clarkson had arguably more talent than Roberts, look at Roberts' and Clarkson's stats for the 3 seasons prior to joining the Leafs:

To be fair, he kind of was:

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Clarkson doesn't come with the history Roberts did when he got here but the player he is on the day he signed with the Leafs I think they are very similar with Clarkson actually having arguably more talent.

Anyways, I think the "three years prior" thing is a little unfair to the matter at hand because Roberts was clearly on the decline as a matter of age. He wasn't the player he was at 30 or 32 when he got to Toronto but he was still very effective in his role for quite a few years.

Well, hell, if you just look at 1 year prior to joining Toronto, it looks just as good or even better on Roberts.  Heck, in the 3 seasons after Roberts joined the Leafs, even though he played 45 less games than Clarkson has played in his 3 seasons prior to joining the Leafs, he still put up essentially as many goals as Clarkson and 21 more points.

 

[Kin]

Heck, in the 3 seasons after Roberts joined the Leafs, even though he played 45 less games than Clarkson has played in his 3 seasons prior to joining the Leafs, he still put up essentially as many goals as Clarkson and 21 more points.

Yeah, ok, but if you look at Roberts' two years prior to signing he's a .65 ppg player while playing with one of the best set-up men in the history of the game. Clarkson the last two seasons has been a .54 ppg player while playing with...not that.

I'm not of the opinion that Clarkson equals Gary Roberts but, and I think this came up with regards to Bozak, when you do a "the past three years" and one of those years, the one three years ago, is clearly different than the subsequent years I think it's a little fair to question it's relevance.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Heck, in the 3 seasons after Roberts joined the Leafs, even though he played 45 less games than Clarkson has played in his 3 seasons prior to joining the Leafs, he still put up essentially as many goals as Clarkson and 21 more points.

Yeah, ok, but if you look at Roberts' two years prior to signing he's a .65 ppg player while playing with one of the best set-up men in the history of the game. Clarkson the last two seasons has been a .54 ppg player while playing with...not that.

I'm not of the opinion that Clarkson equals Gary Roberts but, and I think this came up with regards to Bozak, when you do a "the past three years" and one of those years, the one three years ago, is clearly different than the subsequent years I think it's a little fair to question it's relevance.

I only chose 3 years as a reasonable timeline to judge a player's talents and worth because that seemed to be the only reasonable minimum measure, particularly when talking about who's the "more talented player", which is a pretty broad statement.  Otherwise it's an assessment based on one-and-a-half seasons given the lockout, or you can go back 4 seasons to avoid that outlier if you like, which really doesn't help Clarkson's case all that much either.

Goals may be more statistically important than assists, but Clarkson has several years of lopsided "Cy Young" kind of numbers while scoring goals at a Roberts-like good pace.  Even Roberts on the decline as you suggest in his second season with the Leafs led the team with 19 points in 19 playoff games, when set-up man Sundin was limited to 8 games.  I'm no massive Roberts fan and neither do I hope for anything but the best for Clarkson with the Leafs, but it's really preposterous to contemplate Clarkson being more talented than Roberts at any point in his career, including when he joined the Leafs.  I can't imagine even his agent would suggest that.

 

[Kin]

I only chose 3 years as a reasonable timeline to judge a player's talents and worth because that seemed to be the only reasonable minimum measure, particularly when talking about who's the "more talented player", which is a pretty broad statement.  Otherwise it's an assessment based on one-and-a-half seasons given the lockout, or you can go back 4 seasons to avoid that outlier if you like, which really doesn't help Clarkson's case all that much either.

As a general rule, I agree completely. The issue though is that if a player experiences significantly different results in the two most recent years including that third year as basically ballast obscures the picture, I think, rather than shed light on it. Clearly Clarkson the UFA was being evaluated around the league as the effective goal scorer player he's been the last two years and not the rest of his career.

Again, I agree for the most part but when we do a "the last three years" sort of comparison we should make note if the line graphs would be going in opposite directions.

Goals may be more statistically important than assists, but Clarkson has several years of lopsided "Cy Young" kind of numbers while scoring goals at a Roberts-like good pace.

Like I said, I don't think that statement holds and I'm not going to advocate a position I disagree with but I do think the arguments there to be made if someone wants to look at certain things in certain ways.

 

[moon111]

The fact there's an argument over Roberts and Clarkson... we all win.

Offensively, Jason Allison's 95 point season trumps them both.  

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I only chose 3 years as a reasonable timeline to judge a player's talents and worth because that seemed to be the only reasonable minimum measure, particularly when talking about who's the "more talented player", which is a pretty broad statement.  Otherwise it's an assessment based on one-and-a-half seasons given the lockout, or you can go back 4 seasons to avoid that outlier if you like, which really doesn't help Clarkson's case all that much either.

As a general rule, I agree completely. The issue though is that if a player experiences significantly different results in the two most recent years including that third year as basically ballast obscures the picture, I think, rather than shed light on it. Clearly Clarkson the UFA was being evaluated around the league as the effective goal scorer player he's been the last two years and not the rest of his career.

Again, I agree for the most part but when we do a "the last three years" sort of comparison we should make note if the line graphs would be going in opposite directions.

Goals may be more statistically important than assists, but Clarkson has several years of lopsided "Cy Young" kind of numbers while scoring goals at a Roberts-like good pace.

Like I said, I don't think that statement holds and I'm not going to advocate a position I disagree with but I do think the arguments there to be made if someone wants to look at certain things in certain ways.

Of course, to varying degrees we all both deliberately and inadvertently look at and present our cases in the best possible light.  (And I'd also add that statisticians would probably argue how much a data point can be a true outlier when a data group consists of a mere 3 values.)  I'll tell you, though, if I sat back and had to make my plead my possible case in the court of Clarkson v. Roberts for either side, it's just so much harder to cast Clarkson in the best statistical light.  Hopefully there's enough non-statistical intangibles to more than make up for it.  If he's 100% Roberts for the Leafs, I'll be thrilled.  If he's even 70+% Roberts, contract considerations aside I'll be satisfied, if not happy.

As an aside, I'd love to know now how many goals David Clarkson will score for the Leafs and for the rest of his career.  I think it's so hard to project, based on his age, his undrafted late bloomer status, and his style of play.  I really don't know.  While like most UFAs I don't think he'll live up to his contract, I really don't know how close or how far he'll be from achieving that value.

As a Leaf, and as a very different player, Jason Blake was also an undrafted player who had scored all of 19 goals by Clarkson's age of 29.  Amazingly, he's scored almost 200 more since then to sit at 213 now, and his career is now probably done.  Gary Roberts, on the other hand, scored 235 goals by the time he was 29, encountered major health problems that had him play only 43 games in 3 full seasons, and yet went on to score yet another 203 to sit at 438.  Clarkson sits at 97 goals.  For comparison and consideration, Clarke MacArthur is a year younger with 93 goals, Nik Kulemin is 2 years younger with 75.

I really hope Clarkson is a regular 25-30 goal guy, or even a regular 20-25 goal guy, but I find there's too little to go on to legitimately support such an expectation.

 

[Kin]

Of course, to varying degrees we all both deliberately and inadvertently look at and present our cases in the best possible light.  (And I'd also add that statisticians would probably argue how much a data point can be a true outlier when a data group consists of a mere 3 values.)

Sure, but I think we as sports fans could tell those statisticians that so often the difference between a player being effective in a sport hinges on their ability to do one thing or one thing better. RA Dickey can learn the knuckleball and it renders his pre-knuckleball life largely meaningless. Guys can mature, physically or otherwise. They can get in better shape or spend a summer working on their low-post scoring or...whatever and they're just different players. Likewise, we've all seen examples of players who, when it goes, it goes fast and it goes completely.

Again, is Clarkson definitely that Jason Blake like late bloomer? I don't know. But it's pretty clear that something's been different the last two years.