Deadline day thread

[Kin]

In "red", sign immediately
In "purple", or else be shown the door

That is your quoted position.

Honestly, I know this is our old dance but I write in pretty plain English. I didn't say he'd be shown the door immediately, that's just blatantly false. I said he'd either be fired or have to make a signing that would make up for Phaneuf's absence. He'd have to at the very least present a team that wasn't noticeably worse for the coming season.

And you go on to suggest it was Nonis' only option. Which is merely your opinion not shared by me and it isn't a statement of fact.

It's my opinion, I suppose, that Nonis wouldn't be living up to what the board expected of him by letting Phaneuf walk without replacing him(albeit an opinion that is solidly entrenched in what we've seen from the people running the club over the last 10 years). However unless there's a reasonable argument to be made that there was a better free agent defenseman signed this summer who would have been available to the Leafs then, no, I don't see another option to him that would have satisfied both you and the board.

I think the GM has an opportunity. The GM has ownership as an audience. He can present arguments for what he thinks the best thing for the company to do and why.

We see employees coming up with ideas for their managers all the time. When they make a compelling argument or come up with an idea presented in such a way that the manager perceives it as a good one, the idea gets implemented.

Uh, no. It can be, sure but that's certainly not a given. That entirely depends on the willingness of the managers to listen. That depends on having quality, responsive and intelligent managers and the fact that MLSE's board would have been needed to be sold on a rebuild at all is a pretty strong indication that they weren't that under the TPP and they weren't that under Rogers/Bell until now.

 

[cw]

Look, if someone came up to me and said they'd pay me enormous amounts of money to run their company poorly, I'd take the job.

I have been confronted with that decision. And I've walked away. And the reasoning is pretty straightforward: they can pay you gobs of money short term but when it fails, because you can see the longer term results of their flawed strategy, you're going to be looking for a job anyway and there will be no more gobs of money. And you've sullied yourself and your reputation with that failure.

Might as well get on with looking for a job running a company going in the right direction now. Somewhere where you have more control over your own destiny. And that's what I've done. Even if it's not as much money, you're happier because you're doing something you believe in that is more likely to work out for the better. It works.

And as you mentioned Bowman before, again, it's what he's done for most of his career.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Also apparently Steve Staios has had a big impact on those two as well.

I remember raising an eyebrow or two when Staios was moved behind the bench. Now I hope he sticks around in that position, whether it be with the Leafs or Marlies.

 

[cw]

Uh, no. It can be, sure but that's certainly not a given. That entirely depends on the willingness of the managers to listen.

Nope. It also depends on the ability of the GM to have some backbone and make a convincing case for the change in direction. Managing is getting people to do things for you - including ownership. A good GM can make that case because often, the success or failure of that GM depends on his ability to do so.

That depends on having quality, responsive and intelligent managers and the fact that MLSE's board would have been needed to be sold on a rebuild at all is a pretty strong indication that they weren't that under the TPP and they weren't that under Rogers/Bell until now.

I don't think Richard Peddie, Tanenbaum, CEOs of Rogers/Bell, etc are stupid folks. They probably started out pretty ignorant about what it takes to build a winning sports club. And they've learned the hard way. But some of that failure and some of that ignorance falls on the GMs who failed to convince them of a better course.

 

[Kin]

I have been confronted with that decision. And I've walked away. And the reasoning is pretty straightforward: they can pay you gobs of money short term but when it fails, because you can see the longer term results of their flawed strategy, you're going to be looking for a job anyway and there will be no more gobs of money. And you've sullied yourself and your reputation with that failure.

Well, first I addressed the "reputation" argument in the very next sentence after the one you quoted and I think I've been more or less backed up by that with the relative ease with which Burke found a job after the Leafs.

Secondly, just in a practical sense, if the money in question is literally millions of dollars a year...I might not be looking too hard for a job afterwards.

 

[Kin]

Nope. It also depends on the ability of the GM to have some backbone and make a convincing case for the change in direction. Managing is getting people to do things for you - including ownership. A good GM can make that case because often, the success or failure of that GM depends on his ability to do so.

I'm sorry but, no, someone ultimately gets to make that decision and it's ownership, not the GM. A good GM can make the case but making the case only matters if there are receptive ears. The best lawyer in the world will not win his case if the Judge is a lunatic.

I don't think Richard Peddie, Tanenbaum, CEOs of Rogers/Bell, etc are stupid folks. They probably started out pretty ignorant about what it takes to build a winning sports club. And they've learned the hard way. But some of that failure and some of that ignorance falls on the GMs who failed to convince them of a better course.

Boy, are you jumping the gun using "learned" in the past tense there. Feel free to get back to me on that one once MLSE has had a significant success with any of their teams or even shown themselves capable/willing of having the patience of a full scale rebuild.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Also apparently Steve Staios has had a big impact on those two as well.

I remember raising an eyebrow or two when Staios was moved behind the bench. Now I hope he sticks around in that position, whether it be with the Leafs or Marlies.

Same here.  Maybe they've almost stumbled upon a guy who is very good at communicating to the D and a natural in that role behind the bench.

 

[herman]

I think Shanahan kept Carlyle on to purposely crash the team car to prove to ownership that the parts were too shoddy to keep patching up.

 

[Chris]

This sort of thing has happened before to.  Look at the Rangers.  Sather started out by trying to build an allstar team and signing players to big contracts, and trading for big contracts, and it just never worked.  After the cap came in to place, he changed his tune somewhat and built a foundation by moving out overpriced players for younger ones, like Gomez.

Yeah, that pretty well describes how I've felt about the Leafs since Burke started. They amassed a bunch of one-dimensional offensive players (Kessel, Bozak, in particular, but also Lupul, JVR), over-paid many players in terms of salary and term (Lupul, Bozak, Phaneuf, Gardiner) but didn't seem to have a really good plan to build a TEAM. And the coaches (Carlyle in particular) didn't seem to mesh with the type of players being brought in. The result was predictable. I hope going forward that the entire system is built in a consistent, cohesive manner - a GM who understands how management wants to proceed, a coach willing/able to develop that vision, and players who are willing/able to play the chosen style. Otherwise, it's going to fail again.

I think people should temper their expectations on what the Leafs are going to get for Phanuef.  It probably isn't going to be earth shattering as he is being paid for something he is not, namely a #1 defenceman.

Kessel on the other hand should get you more as he is being paid to score goals, and his track record of doing that is pretty consistent.  This year may be an aberration or it may be the beginning of the end, but I think they can sell the aberration angle as the effects of being on a bad team.

I have no idea what to expect in return for Phaneuf. The length of the contract is a problem. I do think they'll have a better chance to complete a reasonable deal during the summer. Kessel should bring a very good return if the decision is made to move him. I do have to say, though, if I was considering acquiring Kessel, his performance over the past couple of months would put some doubt in my mind.

 

[rdowdall]

I have no idea what to expect in return for Phaneuf. The length of the contract is a problem. I do think they'll have a better chance to complete a reasonable deal during the summer. Kessel should bring a very good return if the decision is made to move him. I do have to say, though, if I was considering acquiring Kessel, his performance over the past couple of months would put some doubt in my mind.

After his tirade today, I think he has to be moved.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

if I was considering acquiring Kessel, his performance over the past couple of months would put some doubt in my mind.

Why?  If it puts any it should be very, very little considering the % of his career that 2 months represents.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I have no idea what to expect in return for Phaneuf. The length of the contract is a problem. I do think they'll have a better chance to complete a reasonable deal during the summer. Kessel should bring a very good return if the decision is made to move him. I do have to say, though, if I was considering acquiring Kessel, his performance over the past couple of months would put some doubt in my mind.

After his tirade today, I think he has to be moved.

I don't think Lupul's tweet was that bad.

 

[Kin]

Yeah, that pretty well describes how I've felt about the Leafs since Burke started. They amassed a bunch of one-dimensional offensive players (Kessel, Bozak, in particular, but also Lupul, JVR), over-paid many players in terms of salary and term (Lupul, Bozak, Phaneuf, Gardiner) but didn't seem to have a really good plan to build a TEAM.

I have to be honest, I don't entirely know what this means. Yeah, they brought in a bunch of offensive players. But they also brought in a bunch of guys who weren't that. Guys who were meant to fill every sort of role there is. They signed gritty 4th liners and PK specialists and stay at home D-men and on and on. Their plan for building a team seemed to be more or less the same as everyone elses plan, the difference being that they were relying on methods of talent acquisition that weren't going to pay off hugely.

 

[freer]

cw, I'm with you for the most part, but I don't see any problem with the Gardiner contract. I understand that he's struggled this season but since the coaching change he's one of the few players who seems to be making more of an impact. $4mil for a top-4 defencemen in his prime isn't a bad deal. There also hasn't really been any indication that the Leafs have been trying to move him, but if they decided to I would imagine more than a few teams would pay a fair price for him.

No taker because Jake is awful in his own zone. He may be a wee bit better over the last 10 games, but he is still awful in his own end. IMO I hope the trade with the rest of garbage.

 

[rdowdall]

I have no idea what to expect in return for Phaneuf. The length of the contract is a problem. I do think they'll have a better chance to complete a reasonable deal during the summer. Kessel should bring a very good return if the decision is made to move him. I do have to say, though, if I was considering acquiring Kessel, his performance over the past couple of months would put some doubt in my mind.

After his tirade today, I think he has to be moved.

I don't think Lupul's tweet was that bad.

I meant Kessel and his defence of Phanuef.  Guy all but says that he wants out.

 

[bustaheims]

After his tirade today, I think he has to be moved.

Well, that was the calmest, softest, least passionate tirade I've ever seen. He didn't say anything that the team's management wouldn't agree with.

 

[freer]

I have no idea what to expect in return for Phaneuf. The length of the contract is a problem. I do think they'll have a better chance to complete a reasonable deal during the summer. Kessel should bring a very good return if the decision is made to move him. I do have to say, though, if I was considering acquiring Kessel, his performance over the past couple of months would put some doubt in my mind.

After his tirade today, I think he has to be moved.

I don't think Lupul's tweet was that bad.

I meant Kessel and his defence of Phanuef.  Guy all but says that he wants out.

Good. maybe we can get a 25 goal scorer who plays in both ends

 

[bustaheims]

I meant Kessel and his defence of Phanuef.  Guy all but says that he wants out.

Except that he really didn't. He defended a teammate and called out the media. Meanwhile, he praised the city and said absolutely nothing bad about playing for the team.

Also, this:

mirtle: Kessel was asked specifically if he wants out: ?No. I love Toronto. I love playing here, I love the city, I signed for eight years.?

 

[Highlander]

He never said he wanted out. God we are as bad as the media :'(

 

[Chris]

Article quotes Kessel as saying "I'm just tired of it here." Kinda sounds like he wants out to me. Add that to the half-hearted "I love Toronto" from a couple of weeks ago.