Do you believe Burke would draft Rielly first overall?

[jonlleafs]

How could you do better?

I don't need to know how to build a car to know if the engine is on fire.

But you're saying he's doing a bad job, but maybe he can't do any better.  Maybe he wants Sidney Crosby, but Pittsburgh won't trade him.  Or maybe he wants Jordan Staal, but Pittsburgh wanted our 1st, Gardiner, Kadri, Schenn, and Colborne.  Which yes is preposterous, but is what he has to work with.  So, if he's trying his best without giving up all the valuable assets we have for 1 positional player, how can he be doing a bad job?  He's doing the best he can with what he's given.

 

[Kin]

But you're saying he's doing a bad job, but maybe he can't do any better.  Maybe he wants Sidney Crosby, but Pittsburgh won't trade him.

But that's the whole point. Because of the decisions he's made in the past he's in a situation where in order to land a #1 centre he's entirely at the mercy of other teams. That's why the shortcuts he took hurt the team so much. That's why favouring short term efforts to improve the club over doing poorly and reaping the benefits of higher draft picks is a bad plan. That's why it was crucial for someone who was taking over the team at the stage Burke did needed to say "Man, this team has nothing" and look to add those huge pieces by sucking and drafting high.

The Leafs are in a tough position, yes, but that's the position Burke put them in. He's the one who misread the team's ability to improve via the UFA market. He's the one who started adding complimentary pieces before the major pieces were in place. Now he's in a position where taking real corrective measures would involve admitting to his bosses that he's not really further along than he was when he started and, realistically, he can't do that without getting fired.

 

[jonlleafs]

But you're saying he's doing a bad job, but maybe he can't do any better.  Maybe he wants Sidney Crosby, but Pittsburgh won't trade him.

But that's the whole point. Because of the decisions he's made in the past he's in a situation where in order to land a #1 centre he's entirely at the mercy of other teams. That's why the shortcuts he took hurt the team so much. That's why favouring short term efforts to improve the club over doing poorly and reaping the benefits of higher draft picks is a bad plan. That's why it was crucial for someone who was taking over the team at the stage Burke did needed to say "Man, this team has nothing" and look to add those huge pieces by sucking and drafting high.

The Leafs are in a tough position, yes, but that's the position Burke put them in. He's the one who misread the team's ability to improve via the UFA market. He's the one who started adding complimentary pieces before the major pieces were in place. Now he's in a position where taking real corrective measures would involve admitting to his bosses that he's not really further along than he was when he started and, realistically, he can't do that without getting fired.

The only time this has really stood out as far as a deal is concerned is the Kessel deal.  But you can argue that Seguin may not have blossomed in Toronto as he has in Boston due to the immense pressure he'd face here.  Was that deal premature?  Possibly, but don't forget, we still have a pretty good player in Kessel.  So if we kept Seguin, we'd be having the same conversation here but about a top line winger that can score.

 

[Kin]

The only time this has really stood out as far as a deal is concerned is the Kessel deal.  But you can argue that Seguin may not have blossomed in Toronto as he has in Boston due to the immense pressure he'd face here.

I can argue anything. I could argue that the Leafs missing out on any player in history doesn't matter because there's no way to know how they'd play in Toronto with equal validity. Bobby Orr? No way to know, right?

But it's all moot. There's no way to know if Burke picks Seguin at #2 or if, absent the Kessel deal, the Leafs would have picked at #2. Or what their pick the next year would have been. Or this year. If Burke goes the Pittsburgh way maybe they have Seguin, Landeskog and Yakupov. Or not.

The point, though, is you don't put the cart before the horse. You don't worry about the penthouse without the foundation in place.

 

[jonlleafs]

The point, though, is you don't put the cart before the horse. You don't worry about the penthouse without the foundation in place.

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here.  I was against the Kessel trade because of all the draft picks we would give up.  However, even though it did go through, I don't view Burke's tenure as such a failure as you do.  I think it still has to be played out and I'm not ready to give up on the guy yet.

 

[Rebel_1812]

Burke has something Holland doesn't... balls.

 

[applecheeks]

Reason #4: History. This organization has no issues with playing 18 year olds when they are deemed to be good enough for the NHL.

So, you're going to use the team's history but completely ignore Burke's? He left Bobby Ryan in junior and the AHL for 2 full seasons before he got a sniff of the the NHL roster. In his time as GM or the Nucks and the Ducks, the only player to play in the NHL the season following their draft was Ryan Kesler. Burke has a pretty extensive history of leaving prospects in junior/their European league for at least one full season after their draft year, and, in most cases, 2 or 3.

And for the record, Rielly is the fourth 1st-round pick Burke has made since arriving and if he does not play for the Leafs, he will be the fourth of those picks to not play for the Leafs as an 18-year old.

They want this kid to go back to the WHL and dominate, work on his leadership, play in the WJC's (where I believe he is also considered as a possible captain) and do all the things you should do when you are 18.

I agree and will throw in my $25 cents worth. If he plays in the Bigs after the jr. deadline for staying up or going down. They won?t make that mistake again.  So Yeah, I hope he makes it difficult, but they stay true to the better development of the kid. i?m in.

 

[Kin]

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here.  I was against the Kessel trade because of all the draft picks we would give up. 

But the issue still isn't being addressed. There still doesn't seem to be a plan in place for landing an elite centre outside having one fall out of the sky. We're still crossing our fingers and hoping the members of the 2013 or '14 UFA classes don't sign extensions. There seems to be a legitimate interest in trading for Roberto Luongo's awful contract so the team can make the playoffs next year.

 

[jonlleafs]

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here.  I was against the Kessel trade because of all the draft picks we would give up. 

But the issue still isn't being addressed. There still doesn't seem to be a plan in place for landing an elite centre outside having one fall out of the sky. We're still crossing our fingers and hoping the members of the 2013 or '14 UFA classes don't sign extensions. There seems to be a legitimate interest in trading for Roberto Luongo's awful contract so the team can make the playoffs next year.

I would personally like to trade for Tim Thomas, if and only if, he agrees to play next season.  I think he would be a good stop gap before Reimer/Scrivens are ready.

 

[KW Sluggo]

Some support for Burke's statement (and a bit more) courtesy of Howard Berger:

Having been sidelined by illness from the NHL draft on the weekend, I?ve done much follow-up work over the phone. Earlier today, I was provided ? virtually word-for-word ? the following appraisal of Burke and his scouting staff by the general manager of a Western Conference team and the chief amateur scout of an Eastern opponent:

?Don?t be surprised if Leafs had the best draft of any team,? offered my two contacts. ?When Burke said his scouts had Morgan Rielly rated No. 1 overall, I believed him because the kid may very well have been the first pick had he not torn up his knee early in the [junior hockey] season. His talent level is equal to [Nail] Yakupov and he?s the best skater ? bar none ? of any player in the draft. But, grabbing Matt Finn in the second round was nothing less than thievery. He should have gone in the middle of the first round. Both of these young men will ultimately be impact players for Toronto.?

 

[Redleaf]

But you're saying he's doing a bad job, but maybe he can't do any better.  Maybe he wants Sidney Crosby, but Pittsburgh won't trade him.

But that's the whole point. Because of the decisions he's made in the past he's in a situation where in order to land a #1 centre he's entirely at the mercy of other teams. That's why the shortcuts he took hurt the team so much. That's why favouring short term efforts to improve the club over doing poorly and reaping the benefits of higher draft picks is a bad plan. That's why it was crucial for someone who was taking over the team at the stage Burke did needed to say "Man, this team has nothing" and look to add those huge pieces by sucking and drafting high.

The Leafs are in a tough position, yes, but that's the position Burke put them in. He's the one who misread the team's ability to improve via the UFA market. He's the one who started adding complimentary pieces before the major pieces were in place. Now he's in a position where taking real corrective measures would involve admitting to his bosses that he's not really further along than he was when he started and, realistically, he can't do that without getting fired.

I thought we went down this path in the Burke thread a few months ago, and concluded Burke was at the mercy of an MLSE decision when he started this job. They were the ones that dictated a quick rebuild instead of the slower more traditional kind. NOT Burke.

"Stripping down to the chassis and rebuilding it is certainly not what ownership has asked me to do. We're not rebuilding here, we're retooling." - Burke

 

[Kin]

I thought we went down this path in the Burke thread a few months ago, and concluded Burke was at the mercy of an MLSE decision when he started this job.

i'm going to guess that we, you and I, did not arrive at the same conclusion.

 

[jonlleafs]

But you're saying he's doing a bad job, but maybe he can't do any better.  Maybe he wants Sidney Crosby, but Pittsburgh won't trade him.

But that's the whole point. Because of the decisions he's made in the past he's in a situation where in order to land a #1 centre he's entirely at the mercy of other teams. That's why the shortcuts he took hurt the team so much. That's why favouring short term efforts to improve the club over doing poorly and reaping the benefits of higher draft picks is a bad plan. That's why it was crucial for someone who was taking over the team at the stage Burke did needed to say "Man, this team has nothing" and look to add those huge pieces by sucking and drafting high.

The Leafs are in a tough position, yes, but that's the position Burke put them in. He's the one who misread the team's ability to improve via the UFA market. He's the one who started adding complimentary pieces before the major pieces were in place. Now he's in a position where taking real corrective measures would involve admitting to his bosses that he's not really further along than he was when he started and, realistically, he can't do that without getting fired.

I thought we went down this path in the Burke thread a few months ago, and concluded Burke was at the mercy of an MLSE decision when he started this job. They were the ones that dictated a quick rebuild instead of the slower more traditional kind. NOT Burke.

"Stripping down to the chassis and rebuilding it is certainly not what ownership has asked me to do. We're not rebuilding here, we're retooling." - Burke

Ah, ya.  I found that quote too:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/blog/_/name/lebrun_pierre/id/4311471/toronto-maple-leafs-recent-moves-not-part-rebuilding-process

So, I guess it's not all Burke's doing but MLSE getting their hands into the mess of things again.  Maybe Burke decided mid-ship to undo that after showing MLSE that a retool does not work. 

 

[Redleaf]

I thought we went down this path in the Burke thread a few months ago, and concluded Burke was at the mercy of an MLSE decision when he started this job.

i'm going to guess that we, you and I, did not arrive at the same conclusion.

What conclusion do you arrive at when reading that quote?

 

[Kin]

What conclusion do you arrive at when reading that quote?

That Brian Burke's tenure as GM of the Maple Leafs has largely been a failure but that his failure began with an inability to convince the board of the right course of action.

 

[Redleaf]

What conclusion do you arrive at when reading that quote?

That Brian Burke's tenure as GM of the Maple Leafs has largely been a failure but that his failure began with an inability to convince the board of the right course of action.

So you have inside information that that decision was up for debate and Burke failed to change their opinion on the matter. Ok.

 

[jonlleafs]

What conclusion do you arrive at when reading that quote?

That Brian Burke's tenure as GM of the Maple Leafs has largely been a failure but that his failure began with an inability to convince the board of the right course of action.

Hmmm... I think that's a bit harsh when you take into account that he's rebuilt the cupboard and the Marlies went all the way to the Calder Cup finals and lost to a superior team but was also really short handed with a few of their top players out with injuries.  I'd say that's an accomplishment.  Isn't that what you said?  Build from within?  So building from within would mean that you first build up from the farm team up into the main club.  So if the Marlies are doing well, it will eventually translate to the main club doing well.  Isn't that sound logic?  If so, then Burke has not failed.  It's too early to say he's failed when again I think we're in mid-stride of his tenure.

 

[Kin]

So you have inside information that that decision was up for debate and Burke failed to change their opinion on the matter. Ok.

I think you're engaging in a fairly revisionist history of how Brian Burke came to be GM of the Leafs. He wasn't jobless and desperate, hoping to latch onto any GM job so that he could provide for his family. The Leafs pursued him. He was gainfully employed as a NHL GM who probably had a pretty good degree of job security. If they came to him and offered him the job but refused to allow him to build the team as he saw fit he could have told them to get stuffed. He held all of the cards there.

 

[Kin]

So if the Marlies are doing well, it will eventually translate to the main club doing well.  Isn't that sound logic? 

Do the players who lead the AHL in scoring eventually go on to lead the NHL in scoring?

 

[jonlleafs]

So if the Marlies are doing well, it will eventually translate to the main club doing well.  Isn't that sound logic? 

Do the players who lead the AHL in scoring eventually go on to lead the NHL in scoring?

So what are you basically saying?  You're really confusing here.  You want to build from within, but you don't see success at the AHL level to mean anything toward the success of the main club?  I think at this point, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.  And I don't agree with your statement that Burke is already a failure.  There's more to just being a GM than to get your team into the playoffs especially from where Burke started from roster-wise.  You have to view the success/failure of the GM on all of the things he does including restocking the cupboard and while yeah we don't have any elite Crosby-type stars on our team right now, he has definitely moved this club in the right direction.  Whether you believe it or not, this is definitely apparent.

This is the roster the Leafs had before Burke took over in 2009 (these are the guys who played at least a game with the main club):
Nik Antropov Brad May
Jason Blake Jamal Mayers
Carlo Colaiacovo John Mitchell
Andre Deveaux Dominic Moore
Boyd Devereaux Kris Newbury
Jeff Finger Ben Ondrus
Jonas Frogren Phil Oreskovic
Martin Gerber Justin Pogge
Mikhail Grabovski Alexei Ponikarovsky
Niklas Hagman Luke Schenn
Jeff Hamilton Jaime Sifers
Christian Hanson Matt Stajan
Jay Harrison Tim Stapleton
Ryan Hollweg Alex Steen
Curtis Joseph Lee Stempniak
Tomas Kaberle Anton Stralman
Pavel Kubina Jiri Tlusty
Nikolai Kulemin Vesa Toskala
Jeremy Williams Mike Van Ryn
Ian White

This is the roster we have as of last season minus JVR:
Colby Armstrong Jonas Gustavsson
Carter Ashton Ryan Hamilton
Keith Aulie Nazem Kadri
Darryl Boyce Phil Kessel
Tyler Bozak Mike Komisarek
Mike Brown Nikolai Kulemin
Joe Colborne John-Michael Liles
Tim Connolly Matthew Lombardi
Joey Crabb Joffrey Lupul
Philippe Dupuis Clarke MacArthur
Cody Franson Colton Orr
Matt Frattin Dion Phaneuf
Jake Gardiner James Reimer
Mikhail Grabovski Jay Rosehill
Carl Gunnarsson Jussi Rynnas
Luke Schenn Ben Scrivens
David Steckel

Aside from say Kaberle and the guys still on the team, that 2009 team is a sad bunch.  The main club is markedly better AND the Marlies went to the final.  I'd say that's progress.