Does the atmosphere at the ACC cost the Leafs?

[GhostofPotvin29]

Is their record any better or worse during weeknight games compared with Saturday night games at the ACC?  Or basically even?

 

[nutman]

I think the point Nik was trying to make was that if the crowd at the ACC is quieter and less excited than those in other stadiums, it doesn't seem to affect the chances of the Leafs winning the game.

That is to say, if we had the loudest building in the league, we'd still be in the midst of a long playoff drought.

Exactly. We can go back and forth about whether a louder arena is a more enjoyable experience but if it doesn't have any outcome on the games themselves it's really just a matter of personal preference.

The noise is a big part of the experience, at any sporting event. like I said if you want a Quiet game sit home or go watch it at a coffee shop. me, the louder the better, it make you feel part of it. I remember lots of games at MLG and the ACC that were loud and crazy, I wouldnt trade that experience for anything. maybe your just getting old and cranky. ;D

 

[nutman]

hope your not one of them fans who are way to quiet for our building.

 

[cw]

I've posted about this before. The ACC has a flat roof, sound baffles, some sound absorbing surfaces and a design to help it serve as a concert venue. If too much sound is bouncing around, then the sound quality suffers for those attending concerts there. (although quieter than the original direct sound, the same sound may arrive at the same place at different times after it's reflected from a hard surface because it's traveled a longer distance) Obviously, places like Massey Hall are better acoustically. But the ACC has compromised the loud sporting experience with their acoustics so that it's not a bad place to listen to a concert.

The Gardens didn't have that and with fewer fans there, those same fans could make it a pretty noisy place. I've attended some pretty loud games at the ACC (loud mainly during playoff games is my impression).

EDIT: My sister had front row seats to the Beatles when they played at MLG and with the poor sound system and all the screaming in that venue, she barely heard a note.

But I think one needs to take what they've done to the acoustics of the ACC into account when considering this issue.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I've posted about this before. The ACC has a flat roof, sound baffles, some sound absorbing surfaces and a design to help it serve as a concert venue. If too much sound is bouncing around, then the sound suffers for those attending concerts there. Obviously, places like Massey Hall are better acoustically. But the ACC has compromised the loud sporting experience with their acoustics so that it's not a bad place to listen to a concert.  .

The Gardens didn't have that and with fewer fans there, those same fans could make it a pretty noisy place. I've attended some pretty loud games at the ACC (loud mainly during playoff games is my impression).

But I think one needs to take what they've done to the acoustics of the ACC into account when considering this issue.

I thought I had heard of something like that about the ACC.  Thanks.

 

[nutman]

I've posted about this before. The ACC has a flat roof, sound baffles, some sound absorbing surfaces and a design to help it serve as a concert venue. If too much sound is bouncing around, then the sound quality suffers for those attending concerts there. (the same sound may arrive at different times after it's reflected from a hard surface) Obviously, places like Massey Hall are better acoustically. But the ACC has compromised the loud sporting experience with their acoustics so that it's not a bad place to listen to a concert.  .

The Gardens didn't have that and with fewer fans there, those same fans could make it a pretty noisy place. I've attended some pretty loud games at the ACC (loud mainly during playoff games is my impression).

But I think one needs to take what they've done to the acoustics of the ACC into account when considering this issue.

Ok.. but I have heard it rock in there, and noise wise it will never hold a candle to MLG. thanks for the info cw, it will go a long ways to explaining the lack of noise in there.

 

[PG]

Habs fans boo routine icing calls, it's embarrassing.

I agree with most of the points made in here, the ACC is fine. I hate when some idiots feel that a sporting event is carte blanche for boorish behaviour.

The way the team plays should never be dependent on the fans' excitement. It should only ever be the other way around.

 

[nutman]

well you guys and your quiet at the game attude is what makes the acc such a joke to be in. MLG was never quiet and it was the best place I ever watched games. it made you part of it.

 

[Jay-Mar]

well you guys and your quiet at the game attude is what makes the acc such a joke to be in. MLG was never quiet and it was the best place I ever watched games. it made you part of it.

I agree where going to a game where you feel part of something will make the experience that much better. The crowds in Winnipeg are amazingly loud and are quite intelligent with the Chants they come up with (when Washington visited they had the," Crosby's Better" chant aimed at Ovie). Having the crowd behind you ,whether your up by 4 goals or down by 3, will always motivate their players to give that extra effort.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I think the point Nik was trying to make was that if the crowd at the ACC is quieter and less excited than those in other stadiums, it doesn't seem to affect the chances of the Leafs winning the game.

That is to say, if we had the loudest building in the league, we'd still be in the midst of a long playoff drought.

Exactly. We can go back and forth about whether a louder arena is a more enjoyable experience but if it doesn't have any outcome on the games themselves it's really just a matter of personal preference.

The noise is a big part of the experience, at any sporting event. like I said if you want a Quiet game sit home or go watch it at a coffee shop. me, the louder the better, it make you feel part of it. I remember lots of games at MLG and the ACC that were loud and crazy, I wouldnt trade that experience for anything. maybe your just getting old and cranky. ;D

Sure it makes for a better fan experience, it just doesn't make a difference to the team's win-loss record.

 

[nutman]

I think the point Nik was trying to make was that if the crowd at the ACC is quieter and less excited than those in other stadiums, it doesn't seem to affect the chances of the Leafs winning the game.

That is to say, if we had the loudest building in the league, we'd still be in the midst of a long playoff drought.

Exactly. We can go back and forth about whether a louder arena is a more enjoyable experience but if it doesn't have any outcome on the games themselves it's really just a matter of personal preference.

The noise is a big part of the experience, at any sporting event. like I said if you want a Quiet game sit home or go watch it at a coffee shop. me, the louder the better, it make you feel part of it. I remember lots of games at MLG and the ACC that were loud and crazy, I wouldnt trade that experience for anything. maybe your just getting old and cranky. ;D

Sure it makes for a better fan experience, it just doesn't make a difference to the team's win-loss record.

If i'm shelling out the coin to watch a game and treat my wife and kids, I think the fan experience is a must. if I wanted quiet I would take them to a chess match.

 

[TimKerr]

I think the point Nik was trying to make was that if the crowd at the ACC is quieter and less excited than those in other stadiums, it doesn't seem to affect the chances of the Leafs winning the game.

That is to say, if we had the loudest building in the league, we'd still be in the midst of a long playoff drought.

Exactly. We can go back and forth about whether a louder arena is a more enjoyable experience but if it doesn't have any outcome on the games themselves it's really just a matter of personal preference.

The noise is a big part of the experience, at any sporting event. like I said if you want a Quiet game sit home or go watch it at a coffee shop. me, the louder the better, it make you feel part of it. I remember lots of games at MLG and the ACC that were loud and crazy, I wouldnt trade that experience for anything. maybe your just getting old and cranky. ;D

Sure it makes for a better fan experience, it just doesn't make a difference to the team's win-loss record.

If i'm shelling out the coin to watch a game and treat my wife and kids, I think the fan experience is a must. if I wanted quiet I would take them to a chess match.

But surely you realize that is the experience that YOU want right?
Just because you enjoy it constantly loud and everyone yelling doesn't mean that is the only way to enjoy a game.
I'm sure you understand that everyone in the world isn't like you and has different tastes.
I think that is all people are trying to say.

For me, I can't go to Raptors games anymore. It is way too loud and there is always some noise being blasted into my ear. Whether it is that annoying music when the team is playing defence or crappy dance music whenever there is a break in the play or just constant bass pumping, it just makes for a horrible fan experience for ME.

 

[nutman]

Ya I do get it, but  sporting events have always been loud and a bit wild. it is what it is, and this is what makes for a time to remember. as we all age noise can get to us, some more then others, and this is why some can't enjoy the game. me I will be 80 and still love the noise, that my frend is a big part of the game. and quiet fans are ok but to many ruin it.

 

[Deebo]

Ya I do get it, but  sporting events have always been loud and a bit wild. it is what it is, and this is what makes for a time to remember. as we all age noise can get to us, some more then others, and this is why some can't enjoy the game. me I will be 80 and still love the noise, that my frend is a big part of the game. and quiet fans are ok but to many ruin it.

Ruins it for you maybe. I dont really care if people are screaming thier heads of when nothing compelling is happening on the ice.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I think the point Nik was trying to make was that if the crowd at the ACC is quieter and less excited than those in other stadiums, it doesn't seem to affect the chances of the Leafs winning the game.

That is to say, if we had the loudest building in the league, we'd still be in the midst of a long playoff drought.

Exactly. We can go back and forth about whether a louder arena is a more enjoyable experience but if it doesn't have any outcome on the games themselves it's really just a matter of personal preference.

The noise is a big part of the experience, at any sporting event. like I said if you want a Quiet game sit home or go watch it at a coffee shop. me, the louder the better, it make you feel part of it. I remember lots of games at MLG and the ACC that were loud and crazy, I wouldnt trade that experience for anything. maybe your just getting old and cranky. ;D

Sure it makes for a better fan experience, it just doesn't make a difference to the team's win-loss record.

If i'm shelling out the coin to watch a game and treat my wife and kids, I think the fan experience is a must. if I wanted quiet I would take them to a chess match.

If I shell out coin, the only thing I want is a win. And beer.

 

[lc9]

Sure it makes for a better fan experience, it just doesn't make a difference to the team's win-loss record.

Actually, it doesn't tell us anything.  I see what Nik did here, but it really has no relevance in creating a less muddied picture.  Comparing different teams with similar points from year to year gives no indication one way or the other.  There are way too many variables to even try and glean any information from this. 

There is really no way to answer the question Nik proposed, with any statistical significance, unless you compare apples to apples. 

Last year, in their first season in Winnipeg, the Jets went 23-13-5 at home and 14-22-5 on the road, a stark difference.  I only mention this because of where they finished in the standings; out of the playoffs.  It would serve a purpose to look at the difference in winning percentage between home and away for teams near the bottom of the playoffs or out of the playoffs consistently, the bigger the gap the more playing at home effects win/loss record.  Again, you have to compare the team to itself over a period of time, in this case I did 4 years:

Teams Win % dif H/A NYI 14.6% Columbus 13.4% Atlanta/Jets 7.9% Edmonton 7.3% Toronto 2.4%

You will see that I chose 5 teams that have performed poorly the last 4 seasons, and then measured their win percentage at home and on the road, then I calculated their win % difference between home and away.  As you can see the Leafs have only a 2.4 % increase at home compared to on the road over a 4 year span.  The next closest team is Edmonton at 7.3%.  All of these teams missed out on the playoffs all years, with the exception of Columbus who made the 8th seed one season.  Even given their poor finishes, all of these teams perform better at home then on the road compared to the leafs, by a wide margin.  This doesn't show causality, but I think it does tell us that the Leafs, compared to other bottom dwellers, need to pick it up at home.

 

[Kin]

Actually, it doesn't tell us anything.  I see what Nik did here, but it really has no relevance in creating a less muddied picture.  Comparing different teams with similar points from year to year gives no indication one way or the other.  There are way too many variables to even try and glean any information from this. 

There is really no way to answer the question Nik proposed, with any statistical significance, unless you compare apples to apples.

Obviously I disagree. I think you need to have some sort of similarity between the clubs in terms of actual ability to establish sort of a baseline competency. With what you've done, you've measured teams that can have differences of 20-25 points from the Leafs in any given year which essentially makes teams like the Columbus as "like" the Leafs last year as the Sharks or Kings. 

That'd be fine if the question were some sort of relative difference between home and road winning percentages but in this case you'll be counting teams who have worse home records than the Maple Leafs as having performed better at home than the Maple Leafs. Really, all that does is confuse the issue because the difference in percentages can just as easily be argued to be a result of the Leafs being better on the road than those other teams.

 

[lc9]

Obviously I disagree. I think you need to have some sort of similarity between the clubs in terms of actual ability to establish sort of a baseline competency. With what you've done, you've measured teams that can have differences of 20-25 points from the Leafs in any given year which essentially makes teams like the Columbus as "like" the Leafs last year as the Sharks or Kings. 

That'd be fine if the question were some sort of relative difference between home and road winning percentages but in this case you'll be counting teams who have worse home records than the Maple Leafs as having performed better at home than the Maple Leafs. Really, all that does is confuse the issue because the difference in percentages can just as easily be argued to be a result of the Leafs being better on the road than those other teams.

Well I guess my question becomes: Why don't the Leafs play better at home then on the road relative to teams of equal futility over a given stretch.  I won't explain myself again, because I am sure you see exactly how I derived my data. 

What this does show is that for teams that are bad it seems like they are especially bad on the road, which is why they miss out on the playoffs or a higher seeding.  For the Leafs, they seem to play the same on the road as at home, meaning there is little to no home ice advantage, which the data shows there hasn't been for at least 4 seasons.  Is this just because this team is poor and plays that same poor style whether home or away?  Is it because the Leafs are a better than thought team but can't perform at home?  This isn't clear.  What is clear though is that poor teams find a way to play better at home, the Leafs don't. 

 

[Kin]

Well I guess my question becomes: Why don't the Leafs play better at home then on the road relative to teams of equal futility over a given stretch.  I won't explain myself again, because I am sure you see exactly how I derived my data.

No, I did. I just dispute the idea that two teams are equally bad by virtue of them both missing the playoffs. 

What this does show is that for teams that are bad it seems like they are especially bad on the road, which is why they miss out on the playoffs or a higher seeding.  For the Leafs, they seem to play the same on the road as at home, meaning there is little to no home ice advantage, which the data shows there hasn't been for at least 4 seasons.  Is this just because this team is poor and plays that same poor style whether home or away?  Is it because the Leafs are a better than thought team but can't perform at home?  This isn't clear.  What is clear though is that poor teams find a way to play better at home, the Leafs don't.

Except, again, as my data showed teams that tend to perform at the actual level that the Leafs have performed at, tend to have fairly similar home-road splits. By comparing them exclusively to the bottom feeders, I think what you've done is sort of magnified the baseline home-road advanatage that's going to apply to every team in the league which will look more pronounced because of just how dreadful a really terrible team is on the road.

 

[Joe S.]

I think this thread may win the award responding to the title and not the post of the OP.