Game of Thrones (S7)

[Kin]

I sort of fall in between, I guess. I think she's still heading north(because I don't see the point in the encounter making her head south but leaving that ambiguous) but I think the significance of her meeting with the Wolf is going to play out later when she gets back home and realizes there's nothing for her there now that she(and the rest of her family) has changed so much.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I sort of fall in between, I guess. I think she's still heading north(because I don't see the point in the encounter making her head south but leaving that ambiguous) but I think the significance of her meeting with the Wolf is going to play out later when she gets back home and realizes there's nothing for her there now that she(and the rest of her family) has changed so much.

Yeah, that seems like a fair suggestion. It'd be a bit of a shame for her to get so close and not have the payoff of meeting Sansa (she might not stick around long enough to see Jon).

Her and Littlefinger's interactions would be interesting too. We might get some confirmation about whether he recognized her all those seasons ago when she was serving Tywin.

 

[Deebo]

Sansa knows Arya is still alive right?

IIRC, Brienne told her that she saw her with the hound before Arya went to Braavos

I'm imagining Arya showing up in Winterfell and telling everyone that she killed ALL the Freys.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Sansa knows Arya is still alive right?

IIRC, Brienne told her that she saw her with the hound before Arya went to Braavos

I'm imagining Arya showing up in Winterfell and telling everyone that she killed ALL the Freys.

Yeah, and when Sansa and Jon reunited last season she talked about how Winterfell was their home (and Arya's and Bran's and Rickon's) when trying to convince Jon to fight the Boltons.

 

[Zee]

Theon being Theon. Don't be Theon.

I half expected him to mutter "my name is Reek!" right before jumping. You could see the transformation back to him going on in his eyes.

edit: Although I will say this, that was probably the smart thing to do vs. getting killed or captured.

No balls Theon.

 

[herman]

Theon was horrifically traumatized, and it came to a head when facing his mad nuncle. His abandoning ship (which is probably more culturally faux-pas for an Ironborn) at the height of Yara's need looks like despicable cowardice.

However, what would have happened if he were brave Theon instead? Yara would be immediately dead, Theon would be likely to suffer the same fate, and they would both be heads presented to Cersei. It's a similar theme to what Sansa touched upon when imploring Jon to be better than Ned and Robb were, and what Olenna told Danaerys to do (principles get you killed). 

I think he accidentally found the optimal solution against a maniacal deus ex machina.

 

[Bill_Berg]

The character is broken. Even Yara didn't look surprised or disappointed when he jumped ship. Wonder if he'll have a Gollum type role at the end of it all.

 

[Zee]

Herman is right though, he lives to see another day.  Had he done the brave thing and charged at the uncle they'd both be dead (him and Yara)  Just sad to see what a state that character is in.  Also I hate the fact that I'm seeing all this on screen before reading it in the books since I was a book reader long before the series ever hit TV. 

 

[Kin]

Theon was horrifically traumatized, and it came to a head when facing his mad nuncle. His abandoning ship (which is probably more culturally faux-pas for an Ironborn) at the height of Yara's need looks like despicable cowardice.

However, what would have happened if he were brave Theon instead? Yara would be immediately dead, Theon would be likely to suffer the same fate, and they would both be heads presented to Cersei. It's a similar theme to what Sansa touched upon when imploring Jon to be better than Ned and Robb were, and what Olenna told Danaerys to do (principles get you killed). 

I think he accidentally found the optimal solution against a maniacal deus ex machina.

I recognize that there's a certain extent to which we have to turn off our brains here but why should we assume that if Theon tried to save his sister she'd be dead in a way she wouldn't be regardless? His Uncle had won, he still had numbers and clearly his interest wasn't in straight up killing his niece and nephew despite his repeatedly stated intentions. Otherwise, why hold the axe to her throat instead of just killing her? Or let Theon's masterful "jump 5 feet away from the boat" escape plan work?

I appreciate that what this may be doing is setting up Theon for some sort of redemption later but outside of seeing the plot machinations at work I'm not sure there's much in the way of logic going on here.

 

[bustaheims]

Theon jumping also works as a call back to season one, when he killed a wildling that had a knife to Bran's throat, and got scolded by Robb for risking Bran's life, as, if he had missed, the wildling would have slit Bran's throat without hesitation. So, maybe, it's an indication that he's learned from his past?

 

[herman]

I recognize that there's a certain extent to which we have to turn off our brains here but why should we assume that if Theon tried to save his sister she'd be dead in a way she wouldn't be regardless? His Uncle had won, he still had numbers and clearly his interest wasn't in straight up killing his niece and nephew despite his repeatedly stated intentions. Otherwise, why hold the axe to her throat instead of just killing her? Or let Theon's masterful "jump 5 feet away from the boat" escape plan work?

I appreciate that what this may be doing is setting up Theon for some sort of redemption later but outside of seeing the plot machinations at work I'm not sure there's much in the way of logic going on here.

I'm certainly not saying Theon ran the calcs and made the tactical retreat as a cogent decision, as this was plot-requirement and character history colliding specifically for moments, rather than a logical, well-thought out scene. Par for the course as much of this back end of the Game of Thrones series has tended towards cliched climaxes, vs the pseudo-realism that Martin strove for early on.

 

[herman]

Theon jumping also works as a call back to season one, when he killed a wildling that had a knife to Bran's throat, and got scolded by Robb for risking Bran's life, as, if he had missed, the wildling would have slit Bran's throat without hesitation. So, maybe, it's an indication that he's learned from his past?

This was such a callback-heavy episode, and I completely missed that. Confident-Theon vs Reek.

 

[Kin]

I'm certainly not saying Theon ran the calcs and made the tactical retreat as a cogent decision, as this was plot-requirement and character history colliding specifically for moments, rather than a logical, well-thought out scene. Par for the course as much of this back end of the Game of Thrones series has tended towards cliched climaxes, vs the pseudo-realism that Martin strove for early on.

Right, but that's sort of my point. There's no real reason for Theon(or any of us) to think that jumping off the boat would lead to a substantially different outcome for anyone than staying and fighting. So when you ask "What would have happened if he were brave Theon" my answer is whatever the heck the writers would have wanted to happen. Maybe he kills his Uncle and executes his masterful escape plan with his Sister. Maybe his uncle bonks him on his head and takes them both to King's landing where whatever redemption awaits him happens there instead.

I get that in a larger sense what we take away from that scene is that whatever heroism Theon had shown in helping Sansa escape hasn't irrevocably shifted what had been done to him(or, if you like, that there never was a "brave" Theon) but I'm not sure I agree that we should look at his decision as having any real effect on the outcome of the situation(again, outside of whatever plot machinations the writers want out of any particular situation).

So when people say it looked like cowardice I suppose it's fair to argue about the idea of PTSD or the equivalent being akin to cowardice but I don't know that I'd buy that courage in that situation would have been any more or less futile than jumping into the water.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I'm certainly not saying Theon ran the calcs and made the tactical retreat as a cogent decision, as this was plot-requirement and character history colliding specifically for moments, rather than a logical, well-thought out scene. Par for the course as much of this back end of the Game of Thrones series has tended towards cliched climaxes, vs the pseudo-realism that Martin strove for early on.

Right, but that's sort of my point. There's no real reason for Theon(or any of us) to think that jumping off the boat would lead to a substantially different outcome for anyone than staying and fighting. So when you ask "What would have happened if he were brave Theon" my answer is whatever the heck the writers would have wanted to happen. Maybe he kills his Uncle and executes his masterful escape plan with his Sister. Maybe his uncle bonks him on his head and takes them both to King's landing where whatever redemption awaits him happens there instead.

I get that in a larger sense what we take away from that scene is that whatever heroism Theon had shown in helping Sansa escape hasn't irrevocably shifted what had been done to him(or, if you like, that there never was a "brave" Theon) but I'm not sure I agree that we should look at his decision as having any real effect on the outcome of the situation(again, outside of whatever plot machinations the writers want out of any particular situation).

So when people say it looked like cowardice I suppose it's fair to argue about the idea of PTSD or the equivalent being akin to cowardice but I don't know that I'd buy that courage in that situation would have been any more or less futile than jumping into the water.

What I don't get is how jumping is supposed to save him. Maybe he didn't expect that it would and figured drowning was better than facing his uncle, but he's going to be saved by a miracle now? I mean I expect him to live, but to your point, because that's what the writers want to happen.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

What I don't get is how jumping is supposed to save him. Maybe he didn't expect that it would and figured drowning was better than facing his uncle, but he's going to be saved by a miracle now? I mean I expect him to live, but to your point, because that's what the writers want to happen.

I originally guessed that Jon might spot him while sailing down to Dragonstone, but that wouldn't really make any sense since that battle would have happened south of Dragonstone and Jon is coming from the North.

Maybe he'll bump into Gendry and his row boat out there!

 

[herman]

Maybe he'll bump into Gendry and his row boat out there!

This is the only feasible solution.

 

[Bender]

GOT....Thoughts on last night's episode?

 

[bustaheims]

GOT....Thoughts on last night's episode?

Olenna Tyrell is the baddest B on the show.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

GOT....Thoughts on last night's episode?

Olenna Tyrell is the baddest B on the show.

Yeah, that was a terrific scene and a good send-off for her character. I'm a little surprised Jamie didn't stab her in the neck or something when she confessed about Joffrey.

 

[bustaheims]

GOT....Thoughts on last night's episode?

Olenna Tyrell is the baddest B on the show.

Yeah, that was a terrific scene and a good send-off for her character. I'm a little surprised Jamie didn't stab her in the neck or something when she confessed about Joffrey.

I was also sort of expecting him to run her through, but, at the same time, her confession justified the faith he put in Tyrion, so, maybe that was enough for him?