General Leafs Talk: Post-Olympics Edition
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
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GhostofPotvin29
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Phaneuf averaged the most ES/TOI per game in those seasons. Mirtle is talking about specific defensive deployment (i.e. toughest competition) versus time on ice, so depends how you define a #1 and #2.
bustaheims
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Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Well, not the one you're suggesting. He's saying the Leafs need to use Phaneuf less and provide him with teammates that can shoulder some of the load. He's not saying they need to push him behind stay at home guys or sacrifice mobile young defencemen to acquire them. What he's really trying to say here is that the Leafs need another top pairing type guy - which has been obvious for a while.
GhostofPotvin29
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bustaheims said:
Mirtle also suggests this, which I'd be in favour of trying:
bustaheims
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Potvin29 said:
As long as those defensive D have decent mobility. Being able to skate well is so important in the game these days.
Potvin29 said:
Phaneuf essentially played the role Gardiner is right now. And I think that suits him more. He's not bad defensively, but I think he's a better offensive defenceman than he is a defensive defenceman.
Rebel_1812
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bustaheims said:Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Mirtle's stating a fact, not suggesting a strategy.
Blame the coach.
GhostofPotvin29
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CarltonTheBear said:
Yeah, you're probably going to get more value out of his contract if you're playing him in a way that can unleash his offensive abilities. Even with his tough deployment the last few years he's put up some pretty good offensive numbers, and that's with a PP where he's rarely set up for a one-timer as everything is fed through Kessel (and one-timers on the PP were a huge part of his early success in Calgary).
RedLeaf said:
If Leafs probably go 6-1-1 to end the season and wind up with 93 points, I think their chances of sneaking in are relatively good. The loss can be against Boston. They need wins against the teams they are battling for position with.
Fewer than 93 points and they are really starting to bank on a fortuitous collection of results that involves several of the teams around them playing pretty poorly for the remainder of the season. Certainly not impossible but I wouldn't want to bet on it.
ZBBM
Active member
bustaheims said:
That would be a defensive load, yes? And you would want a good defensive player to carry it, yes? So tell me, how are you going to get such a player?
And remember, what I've said all along is that I'd rather get rid of Phaneuf than Gardiner. By ten country miles I'd rather. What gets your dander up is my crazy suggestion that, if management is not going to trade Phaneuf, then the next most valuable, most-tradeable asset on defense is Gardiner. Unless you'd rather trade Rielly.
And hey, if they can trade somebody from the forward group to get the kind of top-drawer stay-at-home they need, then I'm all ears.
bustaheims
Active member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:Excellent, we've all come round to my POV then.8)
:-X ;D
No. None of us have come around to your view on trading Gardiner for a defensive defenceman.
This comes from the "very unlikely to actually happen" playbook but it would be interesting to muse about trading Phaneuf to Edmonton in a combination that returns Edmonton's top pick this year. Such a trade might suit both teams.
Edmonton has had hoards of top draft picks and their problems are that (a) all of their talent is young, and (b) good defensement take a long time to develop. Nurse, Klefbom, Maracin may turn out to be great but it is going to take a few years. The fan base has been suffering for a long time. A guy like Phaneuf may make a huge difference.
Of course, trading Phaneuf makes Toronto's weakest position (or may be center is their weakest position) weaker in the short term. If they made such a move, they would be a disaster next year in all likelihood. Still, Toronto may be a little closer to developing a good defense with an emerging Rielly and Gardiner and a reliable Gunnarsson. It may be a little easier for Toronto to find a free agent or two to plug its holes than Edmonton. I don't really know the draft, but perhaps Edmonton's pick could be used to obtain a center with high-end potential that could begin to contribute significantly 3 years from now.
Something like Phaneuf + our first for Klefbom + Edmonton's first would be interesting to consider. I'm not sure that's exactly the right value of balance. (It means Edmonton's absorbing a huge amount of cap and they might want to dump someone like Ference on us to balance it out.)
Anyway, a Phaneuf trade would hurt Toronto now and kill a couple of years at Kessel's peak. It might set us up for a really terrible year next year but then our core might be: Bernier, Gardiner, Rielly, Kadri, JVR, edmonton pick, our picks this year, next year's picks -- all players who might be peaking 3-4 years from now. Along with Kessel who would be 30-31 and hopefully aging like a fine St. Louis '83. A huge benefit of Kessel's non-contact style should hopefully be his resilience to injury.
Now, because this would make the team substantially worse in the short term, Nonis just won't do it but it might interesting to discuss.
In such a scenario, it would also make sense to shed Lupul to the highest bidder for futures.
(As an aside, in ~5-7 years time, one would expect that Buffalo would become a perennial powerhouse if they make the right deals to support their incoming hoards of high draft picks with the right veterens.)
Edmonton has had hoards of top draft picks and their problems are that (a) all of their talent is young, and (b) good defensement take a long time to develop. Nurse, Klefbom, Maracin may turn out to be great but it is going to take a few years. The fan base has been suffering for a long time. A guy like Phaneuf may make a huge difference.
Of course, trading Phaneuf makes Toronto's weakest position (or may be center is their weakest position) weaker in the short term. If they made such a move, they would be a disaster next year in all likelihood. Still, Toronto may be a little closer to developing a good defense with an emerging Rielly and Gardiner and a reliable Gunnarsson. It may be a little easier for Toronto to find a free agent or two to plug its holes than Edmonton. I don't really know the draft, but perhaps Edmonton's pick could be used to obtain a center with high-end potential that could begin to contribute significantly 3 years from now.
Something like Phaneuf + our first for Klefbom + Edmonton's first would be interesting to consider. I'm not sure that's exactly the right value of balance. (It means Edmonton's absorbing a huge amount of cap and they might want to dump someone like Ference on us to balance it out.)
Anyway, a Phaneuf trade would hurt Toronto now and kill a couple of years at Kessel's peak. It might set us up for a really terrible year next year but then our core might be: Bernier, Gardiner, Rielly, Kadri, JVR, edmonton pick, our picks this year, next year's picks -- all players who might be peaking 3-4 years from now. Along with Kessel who would be 30-31 and hopefully aging like a fine St. Louis '83. A huge benefit of Kessel's non-contact style should hopefully be his resilience to injury.
Now, because this would make the team substantially worse in the short term, Nonis just won't do it but it might interesting to discuss.
In such a scenario, it would also make sense to shed Lupul to the highest bidder for futures.
(As an aside, in ~5-7 years time, one would expect that Buffalo would become a perennial powerhouse if they make the right deals to support their incoming hoards of high draft picks with the right veterens.)
bustaheims
Active member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Yes, the defensive load, but, that doesn't mean it has to be a stay-at-home guy (or guys) who help shoulder the load. In fact, I'd prefer if it wasn't. Outside of Gunnarsson, the defensive defencemen this team has had since the cap has been put in place have done more harm than good and would not help shoulder the defensive load at all. There really just aren't defensive defencemen out there that can be counted on for top pairing minutes. The guys that can are excellent on both sides of the puck and, as we've established, are not available (or, if they are, they'll cost more in assets than they'll provide to the team).
bustaheims said:Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:Excellent, we've all come round to my POV then.
No. None of us have come around to your view on trading Gardiner for a defensive defenceman.
I'm starting to wonder if the term "defensive defenceman" really just means "unskilled player you don't want around much." I mean the guys that really excell defensively like Chara and Doughty and Pronger and Pietrangelo also seem to put up a lot of points. It is probably hard to be really skilled at preventing goals without also having some skill in the scoring department.
Strangelove
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There aren't many defenceman in the league I would trade Gardiner for. For a one-dimensional defensive defenseman a la Luke Schenn? Absolutely never. Purely defensive guys are a dime a dozen and just don't have much value. You can teach defence, but not offence.
Highlander
Active member
The upside on Gardiner is too high, the sky is the limit really..in time he will learn to be better defensively but right now his offensive ability is unquestionable..
Strangelove
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Highlander said:
His defensive issues are hugely overblown as far as I'm concerned. His main problem, if you can call it that, is that the Leafs' forwards often don't have the minor hockey-level knowledge of when to back up their pinching D. But in terms of his play in the defensive end - his ability to move the puck, break out, get be in the right place positionally - he's one of the best, if not the best on the team. He's the only Leafs defenseman able to consistently move the puck up ice instead of getting hemmed in for extended periods of time.
OldTimeHockey
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princedpw said:bustaheims said:Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:Excellent, we've all come round to my POV then.
No. None of us have come around to your view on trading Gardiner for a defensive defenceman.
I'm starting to wonder if the term "defensive defenceman" really just means "unskilled player you don't want around much." I mean the guys that really excell defensively like Chara and Doughty and Pronger and Pietrangelo also seem to put up a lot of points. It is probably hard to be really skilled at preventing goals without also having some skill in the scoring department.
I wouldn't class Doughty, Pronger or Pietrangelo as all that defensive. They are just superstars. Their defensive numbers are great, as are their offensive because they're just that good.
Nik Lidstrom was a defensive star that put up great points because he was just that good...not because he was looking for offensive opportunities.
There's then players like Dan Girardi who isn't going to give you a lot of points but will give you a tonne of tough minutes and is a warrior. He may not be in the same class as the above 3 or 4 players but he's an extremely valuable piece on a hockey team.