General Leafs Talk: Post-Olympics Edition

[OldTimeHockey]

He would probably counter that having poor teams is the 'price' in that instance.

So, the additional price that Burke's Leafs teams paid?

Burke paid with his job.

 

[mc]

He would probably counter that having poor teams is the 'price' in that instance.

So, the additional price that Burke's Leafs teams paid?

Burke paid with his job.

Am not sure he was let go because of the Kessel deal. Am sure he was let go because he didn't share the same vision he had for this team with the new Rogers/Bell executives. Right?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

He would probably counter that having poor teams is the 'price' in that instance.

So, the additional price that Burke's Leafs teams paid?

Burke paid with his job.

Am not sure he was let go because of the Kessel deal. Am sure he was let go because he didn't share the same vision he had for this team with the new Rogers/Bell executives. Right?

I think they just didn't like him.  I'm sure the difference between him and Nonis isn't that great considering how often they have worked together.

 

[Jalili]

It's scary to think where this team would be right now with both Kessel and Seguin in the lineup.

Two guys who may both finish top 5 in points.

 

[Kin]

He did pay more of a price by getting a great young player who had already been developed. It's true, clearly Kessel had to mature a bit more as a player to get to where he is right now, but he did have three years on Boston to speed up that process for the Leafs.

But there's a trade-off there. Kessel had 3 more developed years but also three fewer years of control. I think that's a fairly important distinction here because contrary to the way I'm reading your post, I don't think "speeding up the process" was desirable in any way. To me it says that there was something about the next three years that really needed Kessel's participation and, as we saw, that just wasn't the case.

So while you can choose to be sympathetic to the idea that Burke simply goofed in his evaluation of the team regarding how valuable the draft picks were I think the idea that Burke so badly misread the team that he not only thought they wouldn't be a terrible team that year but also that they would be serious contenders within three years really speaks to just how poor a job he did of running the club.

I thought Burke also admitted on record that he misjudged the team when he acquired Kessel and didn't realize that they were going to be a terrible hockey team. That's not ideal, but it makes the price a little bit more reasonable from his end.

I mean, I understand what you're saying but the Clarkson contract is pretty reasonable from Nonis' end if you take into account that he similarly misjudged Clarkson. I don't think that'll make too many people look at it any less harsh considering that properly evaluating these things is what GM's are paid to do.

 

[Kin]

I thought Burke also admitted on record that he misjudged the team when he acquired Kessel and didn't realize that they were going to be a terrible hockey team. That's not ideal, but it makes the price a little bit more reasonable from his end.

Yeah, especially the goaltending.  He was shocked how bad Toskala was.

Really? He was shocked by how bad a goalie was after he'd put up an .894 SV% the year before? Anyone on this board could have told him that relying on Toskala as the team's #1 was a one-way ticket to Basement-ville.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Courtesy of Mirtle, a comparison of the Leafs this season versus the last season they missed the playoffs:

 

[Highlander]

Burke was fired as the stiff shirts at Bell/Rogers didn't like a guy who was full of swagger, bluster a veritable loose cannon with that slightly ruffled boozed out look, didnt fit coporate image, outside of his genius at hockey ops?but the plan all along was to leave us with Nonis, just happened sooner than later. 

 

[Kin]

Burke was fired as the stiff shirts at Bell/Rogers didn't like a guy who was full of swagger, bluster a veritable loose cannon with that slightly ruffled boozed out look, didnt fit coporate image, outside of his genius at hockey ops?but the plan all along was to leave us with Nonis, just happened sooner than later.

I think the people at Bell/Rogers would hire just about anyone if they thought they were able to properly monetize MLSE's most valuable asset. Burke got into a dispute with the board and was fired because the only thing that would serve him as ammunition in such a fight, a successful track record with running the hockey club, was something he didn't have.

 

[Highlander]

I guess winning a cup out west doesnt count?

 

[Kin]

I guess winning a cup out west doesnt count?

Considering I said "the hockey club" instead of "a hockey club" then no, not really. If you get into a dispute with your boss and haven't been very good at your job, how far do you think "but I was good at my previous job" would get you?

 

[Highlander]

But the problem was, that Burke was very good at his job, he took his time to put the pieces together, we can't dispute his trade record, getting rid of Stajan and the rest, Beachmin for Gardner and Lupul, Schenn for JVR.  Come on know, if they had given Burke one more year of his 5 year plan then his building would have become clear.  Thank god he left us with Nonis

 

[bustaheims]

I guess winning a cup out west doesnt count?

Running a sports team is very much a "what have you done for me lately" job. Winning the Cup in 2007 for someone else isn't exactly going to help the Leafs now.

 

[Kin]

But the problem was, that Burke was very good at his job, he took his time to put the pieces together, we can't dispute his trade record, getting rid of Stajan and the rest, Beachmin for Gardner and Lupul, Schenn for JVR.  Come on know, if they had given Burke one more year of his 5 year plan then his building would have become clear.  Thank god he left us with Nonis

I mean, I can't dispute his trade record if the only trades you count are the ones that you like and not the ones that didn't work out. His trade record is also giving away Tlusty for nothing and the Kessel deal and getting rid of Kubina for nothing and trading away a 1st and a high 2nd to move up 8 spots in the draft. There's also his free agent deals, two of which cost the Leafs their amnesties.

At the end of it, even the most optimistic and kind reading of his tenure here would be that he ran the team for 4 seasons, never made the playoffs and left behind a middling team with a middling prospect base.

edit to add: There's also his choices for coaches which, at this point, bear a ton of scrutiny.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

So Leafs don't play Saturday night but play Sunday afternoon?  This violates our rights.

 

[Frank E]

So Leafs don't play Saturday night but play Sunday afternoon?  This violates our rights.

There's just something intrinsically wrong with hockey on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Good little summation on Lupul here by @Hope_Smoke, and how it may have a bearing on expectations for Bozak going forward:

Lupul broke out in Toronto following his arrival from the Anaheim Ducks. Originally thought to be a salary dump ?  whom the Leafs were forced to absorb in order to acquire Jake Gardiner ?  Lupul instantly became a factor alongside Phil Kessel for the remainder of the 2010-11 season. Lupul tallied 18 points in 28 games. Lupul provided Kessel with a talented partner that he had been long missing on that line. Through the next two years Lupul became an impact player. Over that stretch he recorded 85 points in 82 games. His 1.03 points per game average was a dramatic jump for a guy who had only registered a .57 through the first 449 games of his career. Had Lupul really taken that step into stardom that many in this town had bestowed upon him or did everything just go right for the guy?

This season Lupul has seen his numbers drop back down to earth. He has ?only? 39 points in 60 games and has seen his points per game average drop down to .65. Having looked at as many things as I could, I think the 2013-14 Lupul is the true version and the one for the two years prior wasn?t. Make no mistake, Lupul is still a very valuable member of the Leafs team and still a very capable scorer. I just think the days of him being a point per game elite player were short lived and in the past.

It isn?t a normal occurrence for a player to see such a dramatic spike in production at 28 years old like Lupul did and have it remain at that level. They may have a year where everything they touch turns to gold, but eventually they fall back down to who they were prior. It?s something that the Leafs are currently experiencing with Tyler Bozak. Bozak was a .56 point per game player through the first 238 games of his NHL career. He has ?emerged? into a .89 guy this season, but all signs point to him (just as Lupul did) regressing to his normal self sooner rather than later.

At first I thought Lupul?s struggles this season were due to him not going to the dirty areas like he was in the past, or that he wasn?t getting as many shots on net per game. Maybe it was his power play time or time on ice. There had to be a reason for his drop this season. It?s also not even about the points this year. Lupul just doesn?t look the same on the ice. Through those 85 games he was a dominant player. This season he has become a secondary guy in all facets of the game. This just hasn?t been the case though. Lupul?s shots per game this season are similar to the big years (11-12: 3.13, 12-13: 2.62 and 13-14: 2.83). As for where the shots are coming from, those numbers are very similar as well (11-12: 24.8′, 12-13: 26.3′ and 13-14: 26.8′). As for ice time, Lupul is averaging 19:36 this season (2:29 on the power play), 16:07 (2:29) in 2012-13 and 19:37 (3:16) in 2011-12. The big difference that I have found is Lupul?s inconsistency this year. Through 60 games this season Lupul has been held pointless 31 times. In the 85 games prior, he was held off the scoresheet 25 times.

So, what happened? Nothing unexpected really. Lupul had a dominant season alongside Kessel in 2011-12. He saw slightly more power play time that season, averaged slightly more shots per game and his average distance per shot was a little lower. Removing him from a line that featured one of the best scorers in the NHL was definitely going to effect his production. Last season, he had an unbelievable (and unsustainable) 26.2 shooting percentage. Lupul is now what he is probably going to be for the duration of his contract ($5.25 through 2017-18) a very good second line player capable of providing offensive support. The sooner we begin to accept Lupul as that and not the all-star winger and inspirational leader many have labelled him as the sooner we can be happy. Expecting anything more will probably lead to disappointment.

http://hopeinthebigsmoke.ca/familiar-position/

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

We're #1!

‏@TravisHeHateMe 

Toronto now holds the worst 5-on-5 shot-attempt differential in analytics era. 2007 ATL old record holder at -864.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

It feels good to cheer for a team that's first in something

 

[bustaheims]

It feels good to cheer for a team that's first in something

With 12 more games to expand their lead!