General Leafs Talk

[TML fan]

Wow, I do not like this Cronin character.

Why, may I ask? 

Because after reading that article, I think he's an idiot and I don't like idiots. 

He can be as unequivocal as he wants. The Leafs got outpossessed last season...nearly every single game. He talks about counter attacking against tired legs, but doesnt account for what happens after 30 or 40 seconds in your end, when they turn it over on the 3rd shot, your team is too tired to counter attack.

What exactly do you have that proves that we were outpossessed almost every game last season? If you mean corsi and other advanced stats... those don't actually track it. They use other statistics to guess it. Sometimes they're close sometimes they're not.

He actually mentions at one point in the conversation that they do infact track possession and he alludes towards them actually stop watching it. And HE says with that exact information that they were infact not out possessed.

"GC: I want to ask you an innocent question. I know because, as a staff, we track this stuff. Who do you think had the puck the most against the Bruins?"

"AB: You don?t think the Leafs got outpossessed last season, and that shot differentials are not a good indicator of possession?

GC: Right. I unequivocally do not believe that.

AB: To be clear, you don?t believe the Leafs were outpossessed last season?

Nope."

Then alluding to the stop watch.

"These are things that we prioritize. We want the puck. I am not saying we have the right answer. I didn?t stopwatch the Chicago-Bruins series, but I know one thing; Chicago has the puck a lot."

So by reading that fully. The answer I'm receiving is that with the way they coach the team to hold the puck and only shoot when there's a high percentage chance available. And then on top of that having the goals for and high shooting %. I'd say that unless someone comes along with an actual timed per game possession stat from watching all 60+ minutes of every game and shows me that what he's saying is truely false... I just don't understand how you can call him a buffoon or idiot or whatever.

Maybe you could argue that they could coach the team to shoot more I suppose.

I don't care about how many shots they take. Again, I am basing this on watching them play. They may pride themselves on being a quality possession team, but they are not one. They are priding themselves on what they want to be, not what they actually are.

All I was saying is that I'd rather be the team that takes the low percentage shots but actually had the puck more often than the team that infrequently holds possession and generates few quality scoring chances and relies on a shooting percentage that is unlikely to be repeated.

They can get outshot every game for all I care. It's about how much time they spend with the puck, not how often they shoot it. On a per possession level, they might hold the puck longer, but the number of possessions per game is more important. That number was disproportionate last season.

 

[mr grieves]

Good interview, metrics or no metrics.  One thing is clear, just because a team takes more shots than the opposition does not mean that that team automatically is slated to win the game.  As Cronin mentioned, puck possession and the quality of shots taken is equally integral to the overall strategy of winning.

Except that's not really true. And if you can find poor possession teams who've made the playoffs, you can't find one in the last several years that's won a Cup. It's some sort of hubris that leads a man to look at Boston, LA, and Chicago and say "Eh... whatta they know?" Sort of like planning parade after not winning a single playoff round in the last decade.

 

[mr grieves]

I'm all in favour of quality possessions, but you need to have a lot of them. I'd rather be the team that takes 3 or 4 shots a possession than the one that plays the majority of the game without the puck.

Cronin seemed 'pained' to explain the mechanics that led to that collapse in Game 7.  All he should have said to summarize was to say that in those crucial minutes, the Leafs didn't take enough possession of the puck.  He did mention something along the lines of --

"I think were were looking at a group of players who gad never been in that situation before in their careers. Did the pressure get to them? I don?t think they?d be human if didn?t. I don?t give a crap what your background is, that?s an experience that you?ve never gone through before. Did they react poorly? No, I don?t think they reacted poorly, they didn?t react as maturely as if they had seen it before. Simple as that."

How many agree with that statement alone?

I think this guy is more like a buffoon. His statements on possession are blatantly false. He makes no attempt to say why they didn't use their timeout. He admits that they don't even try to gather as much statistical information as possible on how the team/players are performing. They may not use the info as gospel but come on man! Is this organization a ship of fools?

He also described the last minutes of the game incorrectly, citing a Grabo turnover behind the Bruins empty net as a turning point. And it probably would've been, had Grabovski actually turned the puck over behind the Bruins net...

 

[mr grieves]

I don't care about how many shots they take. Again, I am basing this on watching them play. They may pride themselves on being a quality possession team, but they are not one. They are priding themselves on what they want to be, not what they actually are.

All I was saying is that I'd rather be the team that takes the low percentage shots but actually had the puck more often than the team that infrequently holds possession and generates few quality scoring chances and relies on a shooting percentage that is unlikely to be repeated.

They can get outshot every game for all I care. It's about how much time they spend with the puck, not how often they shoot it. On a per possession level, they might hold the puck longer, but the number of possessions per game is more important. That number was disproportionate last season.

Yes, and as was mentioned above, the Corsi numbers that rely on shot counts aren't necessarily an argument for taking any low percentage shot you can. They're the use of shot data to measure possession, and those who've correlated that data with measured zone and possession times have found that the shot-based Corsi numbers correspond pretty well to possession time. They don't measure what you want to measure directly, but they do seem to succeed in measuring that thing.

And, yeah, if you just watched the games, without the bias of the game plan you had in your head and thought you must be executing, you'd pretty easily see the Leafs didn't have the puck very much at all last season. 

 

[mr grieves]

So by reading that fully. The answer I'm receiving is that with the way they coach the team to hold the puck and only shoot when there's a high percentage chance available. And then on top of that having the goals for and high shooting %. I'd say that unless someone comes along with an actual timed per game possession stat from watching all 60+ minutes of every game and shows me that what he's saying is truely false... I just don't understand how you can call him a buffoon or idiot or whatever.

Well, I wonder what you make of this: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/6/10/4404388/not-so-close-after-all

 

[losveratos]

So by reading that fully. The answer I'm receiving is that with the way they coach the team to hold the puck and only shoot when there's a high percentage chance available. And then on top of that having the goals for and high shooting %. I'd say that unless someone comes along with an actual timed per game possession stat from watching all 60+ minutes of every game and shows me that what he's saying is truely false... I just don't understand how you can call him a buffoon or idiot or whatever.

Well, I wonder what you make of this: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/6/10/4404388/not-so-close-after-all

What I make of that is pretty simple. They're picking and choosing what possession stats they count. And again they're doing it in a way that they think shows the best hockey. What if a majority of the time the TML have their puck possession in the defending zone or neutral zone to tire the opponents before they attack into the offensive zone. I recall many times we passed the puck back into our own defensive zone instead of chipping the puck into the corner where maybe we'd lose it.

Everything that everyone is using for these arguements and for advanced stats just approximate the possession time. But if he is literally timing their puck possession with a stop watch for every second they have the puck in all zones and he says that they weren't out possessed last season... why argue with him? The man that obviously knows more about coaching and hockey than most of us. The man being paid for this job... the man who works with a Norris Trophy and Stanley cup winning coach who despite the odds of these advanced stats, gave us what we wanted.

The first playoff appearance in years.

I'd say we can look into this arguement next year when and if the advanced stats stay generally the same against us and we don't make the playoffs.

 

[TML fan]

So by reading that fully. The answer I'm receiving is that with the way they coach the team to hold the puck and only shoot when there's a high percentage chance available. And then on top of that having the goals for and high shooting %. I'd say that unless someone comes along with an actual timed per game possession stat from watching all 60+ minutes of every game and shows me that what he's saying is truely false... I just don't understand how you can call him a buffoon or idiot or whatever.

Well, I wonder what you make of this: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/6/10/4404388/not-so-close-after-all

What I make of that is pretty simple. They're picking and choosing what possession stats they count. And again they're doing it in a way that they think shows the best hockey. What if a majority of the time the TML have their puck possession in the defending zone or neutral zone to tire the opponents before they attack into the offensive zone. I recall many times we passed the puck back into our own defensive zone instead of chipping the puck into the corner where maybe we'd lose it.

Everything that everyone is using for these arguements and for advanced stats just approximate the possession time. But if he is literally timing their puck possession with a stop watch for every second they have the puck in all zones and he says that they weren't out possessed last season... why argue with him? The man that obviously knows more about coaching and hockey than most of us. The man being paid for this job... the man who works with a Norris Trophy and Stanley cup winning coach who despite the odds of these advanced stats, gave us what we wanted.

The first playoff appearance in years.

I'd say we can look into this arguement next year when and if the advanced stats stay generally the same against us and we don't make the playoffs.

All he's saying is he's timing their possessions. He's not saying how often they have possession. One possession for 1 minute is not better than 6 possessions for 30 seconds.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

It should be noted that the 29th place Leafs team of 2009 had some of the best Corsi numbers in the league.  (hint hint)

And we've been over that the 2009 team had truly terrible goaltending. It's not some magical one-stat to rule all others. You can't just win with possession if your goaltenders can't play even average hockey. 

All that does is suggests that perhaps that team was actually better than they ended up in the standings.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

So by reading that fully. The answer I'm receiving is that with the way they coach the team to hold the puck and only shoot when there's a high percentage chance available. And then on top of that having the goals for and high shooting %. I'd say that unless someone comes along with an actual timed per game possession stat from watching all 60+ minutes of every game and shows me that what he's saying is truely false... I just don't understand how you can call him a buffoon or idiot or whatever.

Well, I wonder what you make of this: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2013/6/10/4404388/not-so-close-after-all

What I make of that is pretty simple. They're picking and choosing what possession stats they count. And again they're doing it in a way that they think shows the best hockey. What if a majority of the time the TML have their puck possession in the defending zone or neutral zone to tire the opponents before they attack into the offensive zone. I recall many times we passed the puck back into our own defensive zone instead of chipping the puck into the corner where maybe we'd lose it.

Everything that everyone is using for these arguements and for advanced stats just approximate the possession time. But if he is literally timing their puck possession with a stop watch for every second they have the puck in all zones and he says that they weren't out possessed last season... why argue with him? The man that obviously knows more about coaching and hockey than most of us. The man being paid for this job... the man who works with a Norris Trophy and Stanley cup winning coach who despite the odds of these advanced stats, gave us what we wanted.

The first playoff appearance in years.

I'd say we can look into this arguement next year when and if the advanced stats stay generally the same against us and we don't make the playoffs.

Having possession in the neutral and defensive zone to wear teams out? That seems like a terrible strategy.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

So it appears Tyler Biggs will be going back to Oshawa for an overage year(he's 20 now so could play in the AHL).

He tweeted to one of his spitfire teammates.

@Tyler_Biggs 1m

Not too long until we reunite @Johnny_mac21 #spititout pic.twitter.com/ygdD0gK0D3

 

[CarltonTheBear]

So it appears Tyler Biggs will be going back to Oshawa for an overage year(he's 20 now so could play in the AHL).

He tweeted to one of his spitfire teammates.

@Tyler_Biggs 1m

Not too long until we reunite @Johnny_mac21 #spititout pic.twitter.com/ygdD0gK0D3

I think you're reading a little bit too much into that. They likely just hung out for the first time since their season finished or something. There's no way the Leafs would make that call before training camp.