General Leafs Talk

[Kin]

Someone else who knows more about it than I can shed some light on it, but base on his GA/TA #'s, Blocked shots and hits, I'd imagine that he's pretty good to good defensively, and failing that, just plain responsible with the puck (leading to increased possession for his team).

I don't think that defense has been quantified to that extent but I think something that's a really good and basic start is PK time. Now, on that level Clarkson clearly comes up short so I don't know what we can read from his defensive ability there but Bolland does reasonably well there as Quenneville has trusted him with PK time in the past.

That doesn't necessarily make it an upgrade, Grabo also had some time on the PK, but considering the other guys on the Blackhawks who Bolland was fighting for PK time with I'd say being their #2 center on the PK is a pretty good endorsement of his defensive responsibility.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Someone else who knows more about it than I can shed some light on it, but base on his GA/TA #'s, Blocked shots and hits, I'd imagine that he's pretty good to good defensively, and failing that, just plain responsible with the puck (leading to increased possession for his team).

I don't think that defense has been quantified to that extent but I think something that's a really good and basic start is PK time. Now, on that level Clarkson clearly comes up short so I don't know what we can read from his defensive ability there but Bolland does reasonably well there as Quenneville has trusted him with PK time in the past.

That doesn't necessarily make it an upgrade, Grabo also had some time on the PK, but considering the other guys on the Blackhawks who Bolland was fighting for PK time with I'd say being their #2 center on the PK is a pretty good endorsement of his defensive responsibility.

Fair enough. Looking more into the GA/TA idea as being responsible with the puck and playing a better possession game Clarkson and Bolland's #'s are better than what's departed.

Clarkson and Bolland are +125 (more takeaways than giveaways). Grabbo and Mac are a -98 (more giveaways than takeaways).

I'm not saying it's an exact science, but it's something...

 

[mr grieves]

What don't people understand about Clarkson and Bolland being better defensive forwards than the players they replaced?

The reason the Leafs lost isn't only because the defense needed upgrading, but the forwards too.

But among the reasons the Leafs gave Boston a tough time is because they used their speed. And -- with Grabbo, MacArthur, Frattin, maybe Franson out -- the team's slower.

 

[Kin]

But among the reasons the Leafs gave Boston a tough time is because they used their speed. And -- with Grabbo, MacArthur, Frattin, maybe Franson out -- the team's slower.

There are lots of reasons Toronto gave Boston trouble but very, very few of them had anything to do with Grabo and Frattin. Considering that we don't know really know who'll be the third or fourth line wingers yet it's premature to say that the team will be slower right now.

 

[mr grieves]

Someone else who knows more about it than I can shed some light on it, but base on his GA/TA #'s, Blocked shots and hits, I'd imagine that he's pretty good to good defensively, and failing that, just plain responsible with the puck (leading to increased possession for his team).

I don't think that defense has been quantified to that extent but I think something that's a really good and basic start is PK time. Now, on that level Clarkson clearly comes up short so I don't know what we can read from his defensive ability there but Bolland does reasonably well there as Quenneville has trusted him with PK time in the past.

That doesn't necessarily make it an upgrade, Grabo also had some time on the PK, but considering the other guys on the Blackhawks who Bolland was fighting for PK time with I'd say being their #2 center on the PK is a pretty good endorsement of his defensive responsibility.

Fair enough. Looking more into the GA/TA idea as being responsible with the puck and playing a better possession game Clarkson and Bolland's #'s are better than what's departed.

Clarkson and Bolland are +125 (more takeaways than giveaways). Grabbo and Mac are a -98 (more giveaways than takeaways).

I'm not saying it's an exact science, but it's something...

It's not nothing. But I've seen it suggested that "giveaways" are actually a measure of good possession. As in: you can't give the puck away unless you have it. Phil Kessel gives the puck away a lot; I'm guessing that's at least partly because he brings it into the zone a lot and is either converged upon by D or misses short side and it goes around the boards where a Dman retrieves it. In any case, a lot of the guys with high "giveaways" are pretty elite offensive players.

And, in the other direction, a "takeaway" is counted "when pressure from the defending team results in a defending player taking possession of the puck." I take that to mean if you have or retrieve the puck in the neutral zone or attacking zone, you don't get credited with a takeaway.

The latter, to me, sounds pretty useless for measuring the sort of possession that includes offensive pressure and results in goals. Sounds good for saying you're good in your own end.

And the recording of realtime stats is notoriously hinky.

 

[brothert]

we have 10.8 million left to sign Kadri Colborne Gunner Fraser Franson.  The defense consists of Phaneuf, Liles, Gardiner, holzer and Brennan.  So we have three defensemen who are weak when we get penned in our own end one with potential who showed he has a lot to learn.  Is there enough money to give to those remaining five?  I figure gunner will be the odd man out, but is he tradeable or are we giving the asset away again?  Of those five Kadri and Franson are must haves.  It still doesn't leave much money to bring in a good top 4 defensive D man.  None of our Dmen are particularly good at taking the puck off the other team.  We usually recover the puck after a save or a dump in and thats about it.

 

[mr grieves]

But among the reasons the Leafs gave Boston a tough time is because they used their speed. And -- with Grabbo, MacArthur, Frattin, maybe Franson out -- the team's slower.

There are lots of reasons Toronto gave Boston trouble but very, very few of them had anything to do with Grabo and Frattin. Considering that we don't know really know who'll be the third or fourth line wingers yet it's premature to say that the team will be slower right now.

Yeah, most of it did seem to start with lining up the best defensemen we had.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Someone else who knows more about it than I can shed some light on it, but base on his GA/TA #'s, Blocked shots and hits, I'd imagine that he's pretty good to good defensively, and failing that, just plain responsible with the puck (leading to increased possession for his team).

I don't think that defense has been quantified to that extent but I think something that's a really good and basic start is PK time. Now, on that level Clarkson clearly comes up short so I don't know what we can read from his defensive ability there but Bolland does reasonably well there as Quenneville has trusted him with PK time in the past.

That doesn't necessarily make it an upgrade, Grabo also had some time on the PK, but considering the other guys on the Blackhawks who Bolland was fighting for PK time with I'd say being their #2 center on the PK is a pretty good endorsement of his defensive responsibility.

Fair enough. Looking more into the GA/TA idea as being responsible with the puck and playing a better possession game Clarkson and Bolland's #'s are better than what's departed.

Clarkson and Bolland are +125 (more takeaways than giveaways). Grabbo and Mac are a -98 (more giveaways than takeaways).

I'm not saying it's an exact science, but it's something...

It's not nothing. But I've seen it suggested that "giveaways" are actually a measure of good possession. As in: you can't give the puck away unless you have it. Phil Kessel gives the puck away a lot; I'm guessing that's at least partly because he brings it into the zone a lot and is either converged upon by D or misses short side and it goes around the boards where a Dman retrieves it. In any case, a lot of the guys with high "giveaways" are pretty elite offensive players.

And, in the other direction, a "takeaway" is counted "when pressure from the defending team results in a defending player taking possession of the puck." I take that to mean if you have or retrieve the puck in the neutral zone or attacking zone, you don't get credited with a takeaway.

The latter, to me, sounds pretty useless for measuring the sort of possession that includes offensive pressure and results in goals. Sounds good for saying you're good in your own end.

And the recording of realtime stats is notoriously hinky.

Most of that seems true. Interesting as I'm checking up that Crosby, Malkin, Thornton have more giveaways than take-aways while great 2 way guys like Datsyuk, Toews and Bergeron have a lot more take-aways than giveaways.

Anyway I think the difference in the 2 numbers speaks more to how often a player will retrieve the puck and do something good with it as opposed to send the other team off on a chance (possession of the puck is always good for keeping the other team from scoring).

Bolland and Clarkson are better at that than Grabbo and Mac. Maybe less offensive upside because of it (though not necessarily) but maybe less of a defensive liability at the same time

 

[princedpw]

Take-aways, give-aways, hits and blocks are all stats that are probably best ignored.

 

[princedpw]

What about Paul Ranger for a low-cost defenseman to help fill out the roster. I wonder if he'd agree to play in the NHL this year.

 

[Palmateer29]

What don't people understand about Clarkson and Bolland being better defensive forwards than the players they replaced?

The reason the Leafs lost isn't only because the defense needed upgrading, but the forwards too.

But among the reasons the Leafs gave Boston a tough time is because they used their speed. And -- with Grabbo, MacArthur, Frattin, maybe Franson out -- the team's slower.

You didn't just seriously use Franson as an example of speed?

 

[hockeyfan1]

They also never really bothered to address their weaknesses. Lack of toughness was not the reason we lost to the Bruins. Our defense hasn't been upgraded, at center we got worse or have committed to the status quo, which was a problem. David Clarkson isn't going to stop this team from getting constantly outshot or prevent them from spending way too much time in their own end.

Not very impressed with Dave Nonis at all. He completely missed the boat on what this team needed. He wasted assets/depth & cap space upgrading what really didn't need upgrading. Why add a goalie when the one you have got you the playoffs? Why give a winger a big 7-year contact when there are a plethora of wingers out there you could signed for less dollars/term & similar production? Why buy-out a center & then keep another one who has a worse offensive ceiling?

This has not been a good off-season at all...it's not like my expectations were sky high. Lord only knows, for the Leafs, they never are.

Wnat would Burke have done (differently)?

 

[hockeyfan1]

Frazer Mclaren @Frazermclaren68
Really excited to be back in the greatest hockey city for 2 more years. #leafs.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Take-aways, give-aways, hits and blocks are all stats that are probably best ignored.

Then Clarkson, Bolland and McClement are terrible players to have on the team.

 

[drummond]

Frazer Mclaren @Frazermclaren68
Really excited to be back in the greatest hockey city for 2 more years. #leafs.

With Parros in Montreal he will - no doubt - have full fists of work

 

[Redleaf]

I wonder if Nonis was in on the Bobby Ryan discussions, before the price got too steep. Perhaps Clarkson was the consolation prize?

 

[drummond]

There is also one aspect of recent Nonis acquisitions which should not go unnoticed: increased heat on Carlyle. Nonis ultimatelly got the players Carlyle likes (I am almost inclined to use the term wanted) and fit his system. The Leafs completely subjected the whole team to Carlyle style. Right now it is up to Carlyle to deliver.

This is pretty telling: ?The good news for me is it?s not my problem anymore,? Nonis said of solidifying his forwards for a hand off to coach Randy Carlyle in the fall. ?It?s up to Randy. I?ve done what I can do.? I find it pretty strong worded, don?t you think?

The good news is, if Carlyle delivers (meaning the Leafs make playoffs, ideally get beyond first round), we all be happy and superexcited and most likely Leafs new acquisitions will play important part in the process.

The bad news is, if Carlyle fails and the Leafs won?t make the playoffs, I can assume Lewieke and company will push Nonis hard to fire Carlyle and new coach inherits this team all signed long term...

 

[TML fan]

They also never really bothered to address their weaknesses. Lack of toughness was not the reason we lost to the Bruins. Our defense hasn't been upgraded, at center we got worse or have committed to the status quo, which was a problem. David Clarkson isn't going to stop this team from getting constantly outshot or prevent them from spending way too much time in their own end.

Not very impressed with Dave Nonis at all. He completely missed the boat on what this team needed. He wasted assets/depth & cap space upgrading what really didn't need upgrading. Why add a goalie when the one you have got you the playoffs? Why give a winger a big 7-year contact when there are a plethora of wingers out there you could signed for less dollars/term & similar production? Why buy-out a center & then keep another one who has a worse offensive ceiling?

This has not been a good off-season at all...it's not like my expectations were sky high. Lord only knows, for the Leafs, they never are.

I disagree with pretty much all of this.

While its true that they haven't upgraded the defensive personnel, aside from a legitimate top pairing player, they are pretty much on par with the rest of the league in that regard. Outside of Letang, who the Leafs obviously couldn't afford, nobody of that calibre was readily available. The off season isn't over but the likelihood of the Leafs acquiring such a player this season is remote.

At centre, I believe the Leafs significantly upgraded. While Grabovski is quite a talented player, where does he fit? You Can't just look at raw numbers when building a team. It takes more than just talent. You have to find the right mix of role players and skill to balance your team. Grabovski was an outcast. He lost his job to Kadri and couldn't fill the role that management believes Bolland can. While Bozak may not have the offensive potential that Grabovski does, he FITS better in his role on that line and with the team in general. It's better for overall team chemistry.

The reason the Leafs got outshot so much last season is because they played so much without the puck. Turnover machines like Grabovski and MacArthur didn't help that cause, and they didn't produce enough offence to make those turnovers something easy to ignore. The idea of acquiring players like Clarkson and Bolland is to possess the puck more, generate turnovers and just generally spend more time in the offensive zone. After all, the easiest way to play defence is to spend the majority of the game with the puck in the other team's end.

Nonis definitely addressed the team's needs. Not all of them, mind you, but that's not really a simple task to complete. I think Nonis was bang on in identifying the Leafs' weaknesses and he did a decent job addressing them. Only time will tell whether or not he was successful.

As for Bernier, he's insurance. Reimer has to fight for his job. Scrivens never really provided a challenge. This can only serve to prove whether or not Reimer is actually a number 1 goalie.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Grabovski vs Bozak may be debatable, but we're saving 1.3 million with Bozak, and who knows how much of an impact the Bozak signing will make next year resigning Kessel.

What do you think would have happened last season if we had Bolland instead of Grabovski as the third line centre against Boston?

There's also got to be some hope that Kadri steps up and takes the number 1 centre role.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Turnover machines like Grabovski and MacArthur didn't help that cause, and they didn't produce enough offence to make those turnovers something easy to ignore. The idea of acquiring players like Clarkson and Bolland is to possess the puck more, generate turnovers and just generally spend more time in the offensive zone.

I agree with this.  If you read over my opinions of MacArthur over the last couple of years, I was never frustrated with his heart and output.  It was his hockey IQ that drove me nuts.  Skating behind the net and blindly throwing the puck in the slot hoping a Leaf would be there, drop passes on a promising play to no one, just getting rid of the puck when pressured rather than waiting the extra split second to let the opposing skate by over commiting... 

When it worked in 2010-11, I kept holding my breath waiting for it to fall apart as most of the plays that line were doing were so predictable.  That season his hustle and forecheck was accredited with 116 hits.  The following season it dropped significantly to 60 hits.