Goaltending Showdown - Reimer vs. Bernier

[Bender]

I will put the defence at 80% to blame because of there bad play but Reimer needs to stop with the rebounds. If Bernier closes the door on col Reimer may have some time to work on his rebound control.

The same defence were out there when Bernier came in.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I will put the defence at 80% to blame because of there bad play but Reimer needs to stop with the rebounds. If Bernier closes the door on col Reimer may have some time to work on his rebound control.

The same defence were out there when Bernier came in.

Doesn't mean they played as bad.  They were all over the place early in the game.

 

[Zee]

I will put the defence at 80% to blame because of there bad play but Reimer needs to stop with the rebounds. If Bernier closes the door on col Reimer may have some time to work on his rebound control.

The same defence were out there when Bernier came in.

Doesn't mean they played as bad.  They were all over the place early in the game.

Sometimes the play starts from the net out as the goalie can have a positive influence on the rest of the team.  Was that Spezza goal the defense's fault?  Reimer was battling the puck all night long and was a rebound machine.

 

[lc9]

Sometimes the play starts from the net out as the goalie can have a positive influence on the rest of the team.  Was that Spezza goal the defense's fault?  Reimer was battling the puck all night long and was a rebound machine.

I agree with this.  Once Bernier came in the Leafs played with more confidence.  Bernier nullified some of the errors with good saves, and more importantly, not many rebounds.  His rebound control is very good, Reimers is very bad.

 

[Zee]

Sometimes the play starts from the net out as the goalie can have a positive influence on the rest of the team.  Was that Spezza goal the defense's fault?  Reimer was battling the puck all night long and was a rebound machine.

I agree with this.  Once Bernier came in the Leafs played with more confidence.  Bernier nullified some of the errors with good saves, and more importantly, not many rebounds.  His rebound control is very good, Reimers is very bad.

Reimer is a battler, and he's played many good games with the Leafs, but Saturday wasn't one of them.  I'd say at least 2 if not 3 goals were his fault on Saturday.  Let's not sugar coat it here and blame the entire team play when he can't stop a routine shot without giving up a rebound.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I will put the defence at 80% to blame because of there bad play but Reimer needs to stop with the rebounds. If Bernier closes the door on col Reimer may have some time to work on his rebound control.

The same defence were out there when Bernier came in.

Doesn't mean they played as bad.  They were all over the place early in the game.

Sometimes the play starts from the net out as the goalie can have a positive influence on the rest of the team.  Was that Spezza goal the defense's fault?  Reimer was battling the puck all night long and was a rebound machine.

Well it was still just one goal.  The one right before his defenseman knocked him over - was that Reimer's fault?

We could do this all day, but at the end of it, Bernier's going to have games like this too, especially if he continues to play behind a D with a 19 year old, an offensive-minded 23 year old, and a guy fresh off 4 years out of the NHL.

 

[Zee]

I will put the defence at 80% to blame because of there bad play but Reimer needs to stop with the rebounds. If Bernier closes the door on col Reimer may have some time to work on his rebound control.

The same defence were out there when Bernier came in.

Doesn't mean they played as bad.  They were all over the place early in the game.

Sometimes the play starts from the net out as the goalie can have a positive influence on the rest of the team.  Was that Spezza goal the defense's fault?  Reimer was battling the puck all night long and was a rebound machine.

Well it was still just one goal.  The one right before his defenseman knocked him over - was that Reimer's fault?

We could do this all day, but at the end of it, Bernier's going to have games like this too, especially if he continues to play behind a D with a 19 year old, an offensive-minded 23 year old, and a guy fresh off 4 years out of the NHL.

Defenseman knocked him over but there should have never been a rebound on the initial shot, it was weak.  First 2 Sens goals had odors on them as well, weak shots beating him on the left side and just trickling it.  Take your pick, but he was bad on a number of goals.

Edit: Actually I just watched the replay again, nobody knocked him down he flopped after giving up the rebound.

Leafs are actually in good shape here.  He should have stopped that shot with no rebound.  Instead, the reboud goes out, Reimer flops down trying to cover it and the scramble ensues.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I will put the defence at 80% to blame because of there bad play but Reimer needs to stop with the rebounds. If Bernier closes the door on col Reimer may have some time to work on his rebound control.

The same defence were out there when Bernier came in.

Doesn't mean they played as bad.  They were all over the place early in the game.

Sometimes the play starts from the net out as the goalie can have a positive influence on the rest of the team.  Was that Spezza goal the defense's fault?  Reimer was battling the puck all night long and was a rebound machine.

Well it was still just one goal.  The one right before his defenseman knocked him over - was that Reimer's fault?

We could do this all day, but at the end of it, Bernier's going to have games like this too, especially if he continues to play behind a D with a 19 year old, an offensive-minded 23 year old, and a guy fresh off 4 years out of the NHL.

Defenseman knocked him over but there should have never been a rebound on the initial shot, it was weak.  First 2 Sens goals had odors on them as well, weak shots beating him on the left side and just trickling it.  Take your pick, but he was bad on a number of goals.

You can have the last two, it's subjective, we'll beat the horses until they're dust.

1st goal - Franson gives it away, rest of Leafs watch the puck and take nobody.  Puck is passed out in front and Reimer reacts to the first Sens player attempting a shot, but the puck bounces by that player and onto Turris' stick who is behind 2 players.  Reimer never even sees this shot because he's already reacted to the initial attempt.

2nd goal - Turris is 1 on 5 and no one touches him.  Puck goes in front of the net onto Franson's stick - he goes to move it and is bumped and the puck is shot by Conacher in one motion.  The puck is past Reimer and off the post before he's even reacted to a shot that a half-second before wasn't even there - puck hits the post, hits him and trickles in.

On the first 3 goals I pin equal or more blame on the defensive coverage, but if you saw it differently so be it.

 

[Zee]

I will put the defence at 80% to blame because of there bad play but Reimer needs to stop with the rebounds. If Bernier closes the door on col Reimer may have some time to work on his rebound control.

The same defence were out there when Bernier came in.

Doesn't mean they played as bad.  They were all over the place early in the game.

Sometimes the play starts from the net out as the goalie can have a positive influence on the rest of the team.  Was that Spezza goal the defense's fault?  Reimer was battling the puck all night long and was a rebound machine.

Well it was still just one goal.  The one right before his defenseman knocked him over - was that Reimer's fault?

We could do this all day, but at the end of it, Bernier's going to have games like this too, especially if he continues to play behind a D with a 19 year old, an offensive-minded 23 year old, and a guy fresh off 4 years out of the NHL.

Defenseman knocked him over but there should have never been a rebound on the initial shot, it was weak.  First 2 Sens goals had odors on them as well, weak shots beating him on the left side and just trickling it.  Take your pick, but he was bad on a number of goals.

You can have the last two, it's subjective, we'll beat the horses until they're dust.

1st goal - Franson gives it away, rest of Leafs watch the puck and take nobody.  Puck is passed out in front and Reimer reacts to the first Sens player attempting a shot, but the puck bounces by that player and onto Turris' stick who is behind 2 players.  Reimer never even sees this shot because he's already reacted to the initial attempt.

2nd goal - Turris is 1 on 5 and no one touches him.  Puck goes in front of the net onto Franson's stick - he goes to move it and is bumped and the puck is shot by Conacher in one motion.  The puck is past Reimer and off the post before he's even reacted to a shot that a half-second before wasn't even there - puck hits the post, hits him and trickles in.

On the first 3 goals I pin equal or more blame on the defensive coverage, but if you saw it differently so be it.

Hey I get you like Reimer, but to not see the difference in the game between when he played and when Bernier played, that's just wearing blinders.  Sure you can say the team suddenly played better when Bernier came in and Bernier had to make 0 tough saves, or you can say Bernier made the tough saves look easy, was able to settle everything down and the team played better because of it.  I like Reimer as much as the next guy, but he was bad on Saturday.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Hey I get you like Reimer, but to not see the difference in the game between when he played and when Bernier played, that's just wearing blinders.  Sure you can say the team suddenly played better when Bernier came in and Bernier had to make 0 tough saves, or you can say Bernier made the tough saves look easy, was able to settle everything down and the team played better because of it.  I like Reimer as much as the next guy, but he was bad on Saturday.

He wasn't typical Reimer, but those goals were equal parts defensive lapses though. That's how I saw it.

 

[Corn Flake]

Hey I get you like Reimer, but to not see the difference in the game between when he played and when Bernier played, that's just wearing blinders.  Sure you can say the team suddenly played better when Bernier came in and Bernier had to make 0 tough saves, or you can say Bernier made the tough saves look easy, was able to settle everything down and the team played better because of it.  I like Reimer as much as the next guy, but he was bad on Saturday.

He wasn't typical Reimer, but those goals were equal parts defensive lapses though. That's how I saw it.

Not "typical" Reimer... how do you not be your best on opening night at home??

Bernier came in and his play calmed everything down, IMO.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Not "typical" Reimer... how do you not be your best on opening night at home??

Bernier came in and his play calmed everything down, IMO.

You'll have to ask Reimer, but he didn't think his performance was terrible. I'm sure his intention was to be strong in the home opener, but his defensemen didn't help him out that much. I think Reimer should have had the 4th goal, but the others were a combination of his weak play and team defense.

That's just how I saw it.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Hey I get you like Reimer, but to not see the difference in the game between when he played and when Bernier played, that's just wearing blinders.  Sure you can say the team suddenly played better when Bernier came in and Bernier had to make 0 tough saves, or you can say Bernier made the tough saves look easy, was able to settle everything down and the team played better because of it.  I like Reimer as much as the next guy, but he was bad on Saturday.

The team did play better when Bernier came in, if looking at nothing else besides the shots on goal each goalie faced.  Reimer faced more in less game action, suggesting the Leafs were playing a worse game while he was in net and giving up more chances.

I'm saying I don't know if Bernier played better and made the team better or if the team just started to play better once their backs were to the wall.  There is evidence in the internets that suggests when teams get down by a few goals that they drive play more often.

He wasn't bad, he was average and made to look worse by the team in front of him.  I never said Bernier made 0 tough saves, but I don't think the team ran around with it's head cut off in their own end as much either.  Maybe Ottawa let off the gas.

I'm just spreading the blame around, and truly don't think he was as bad as is being portrayed.

 

[Redleaf]

Not "typical" Reimer... how do you not be your best on opening night at home??

Bernier came in and his play calmed everything down, IMO.

You'll have to ask Reimer, but he didn't think his performance was terrible. I'm sure his intention was to be strong in the home opener, but his defensemen didn't help him out that much. I think Reimer should have had the 4th goal, but the others were a combination of his weak play and team defense.

That's just how I saw it.

If it's any consolation, I believe Riemer could've rebounded and held down the fort until the Leafs found their game and eventually came back. We've seen it many, many times from him in the past. He's able to put a bad goal or two behind him, refocus, and stop everything else that night. He just won't be given those opportunities as much this year with Bernier waiting in the wings.

 

[Zee]

Hey I get you like Reimer, but to not see the difference in the game between when he played and when Bernier played, that's just wearing blinders.  Sure you can say the team suddenly played better when Bernier came in and Bernier had to make 0 tough saves, or you can say Bernier made the tough saves look easy, was able to settle everything down and the team played better because of it.  I like Reimer as much as the next guy, but he was bad on Saturday.

The team did play better when Bernier came in, if looking at nothing else besides the shots on goal each goalie faced.  Reimer faced more in less game action, suggesting the Leafs were playing a worse game while he was in net and giving up more chances.

Shots on goal dictate that the team played better when Bernier came in?  How about the extra shots Reimer faced because he allowed the rebound out when he should have smothered the puck?  Do those count against the defense?

 

[Bender]

Hey I get you like Reimer, but to not see the difference in the game between when he played and when Bernier played, that's just wearing blinders.  Sure you can say the team suddenly played better when Bernier came in and Bernier had to make 0 tough saves, or you can say Bernier made the tough saves look easy, was able to settle everything down and the team played better because of it.  I like Reimer as much as the next guy, but he was bad on Saturday.

The team did play better when Bernier came in, if looking at nothing else besides the shots on goal each goalie faced.  Reimer faced more in less game action, suggesting the Leafs were playing a worse game while he was in net and giving up more chances.

I'm saying I don't know if Bernier played better and made the team better or if the team just started to play better once their backs were to the wall.  There is evidence in the internets that suggests when teams get down by a few goals that they drive play more often.

He wasn't bad, he was average and made to look worse by the team in front of him.  I never said Bernier made 0 tough saves, but I don't think the team ran around with it's head cut off in their own end as much either.  Maybe Ottawa let off the gas.

I'm just spreading the blame around, and truly don't think he was as bad as is being portrayed.

True but at 3-2 that fourth goal was a backbreaker, especially since it went through him. I'd be a nervous defenseman too if my goalie couldn't settle the puck down.

Minutes after the game started I said to a friend that Reimers play is going to give me a heart attack, and this was before any goals were scored.

Sure there were lapses in the D but even the last game he played I thought we were lucky to come out with a win based on how floppy and not in control he looked. Bernier comes in, stays sound and makes it all look pretty easy except for maybe one or two chances.

The flip side argument of saying the D left him out to dry is the goaltender is supposed to bail you out sometimes. Reimer didn't do that, Bernier did.

I'm not absolving the D of guilt but if rebounds are controlled and you're sound positionally then there should be fewer scrambles. This is almost exactly what happened.

 

[Bender]

Hey I get you like Reimer, but to not see the difference in the game between when he played and when Bernier played, that's just wearing blinders.  Sure you can say the team suddenly played better when Bernier came in and Bernier had to make 0 tough saves, or you can say Bernier made the tough saves look easy, was able to settle everything down and the team played better because of it.  I like Reimer as much as the next guy, but he was bad on Saturday.

The team did play better when Bernier came in, if looking at nothing else besides the shots on goal each goalie faced.  Reimer faced more in less game action, suggesting the Leafs were playing a worse game while he was in net and giving up more chances.

Shots on goal dictate that the team played better when Bernier came in?  How about the extra shots Reimer faced because he allowed the rebound out when he should have smothered the puck?  Do those count against the defense?

Or the fact that he can almost never handle the puck effectively?

Again not to slag on him, but I don't think the D played that much better with Bernier in net. Sometimes the goalie needs to carry a disproportionate amount of the load. A great example is the Leafs from 97/98 to 98/99. Pretty much the same personnel, same defensive issues, but Cujo bailed them out quite a lot. Is it fair?  Probably not, but those are the circumstances.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

If it's any consolation, I believe Riemer could've rebounded and held down the fort until the Leafs found their game and eventually came back. We've seen it many, many times from him in the past. He's able to put a bad goal or two behind him, refocus, and stop everything else that night. He just won't be given those opportunities as much this year with Bernier waiting in the wings.

At that point though, it was more of Carlyle saying "If your not going to play for him, I'm taking him out" That was the wake up call for not just Reimer, but for the other players also.

I have seen Reimer do what you're talking about, but I don't think it was going to happen Saturday night. That last goal did him in.

 

[Zee]

Hey I get you like Reimer, but to not see the difference in the game between when he played and when Bernier played, that's just wearing blinders.  Sure you can say the team suddenly played better when Bernier came in and Bernier had to make 0 tough saves, or you can say Bernier made the tough saves look easy, was able to settle everything down and the team played better because of it.  I like Reimer as much as the next guy, but he was bad on Saturday.

The team did play better when Bernier came in, if looking at nothing else besides the shots on goal each goalie faced.  Reimer faced more in less game action, suggesting the Leafs were playing a worse game while he was in net and giving up more chances.

I'm saying I don't know if Bernier played better and made the team better or if the team just started to play better once their backs were to the wall.  There is evidence in the internets that suggests when teams get down by a few goals that they drive play more often.

He wasn't bad, he was average and made to look worse by the team in front of him.  I never said Bernier made 0 tough saves, but I don't think the team ran around with it's head cut off in their own end as much either.  Maybe Ottawa let off the gas.

I'm just spreading the blame around, and truly don't think he was as bad as is being portrayed.

True but at 3-2 that fourth goal was a backbreaker, especially since it went through him. I'd be a nervous defenseman too if my goalie couldn't settle the puck down.

Minutes after the game started I said to a friend that Reimers play is going to give me a heart attack, and this was before any goals were scored.

Sure there were lapses in the D but even the last game he played I thought we were lucky to come out with a win based on how floppy and not in control he looked. Bernier comes in, stays sound and makes it all look pretty easy except for maybe one or two chances.

The flip side argument of saying the D left him out to dry is the goaltender is supposed to bail you out sometimes. Reimer didn't do that, Bernier did.

I'm not absolving the D of guilt but if rebounds are controlled and you're sound positionally then there should be fewer scrambles. This is almost exactly what happened.

There's a fine line between not blaming the goalie for ANY goal and blaming the goalie for EVERY goal.  Some goals are shared blame, some are totally on the D and some are totally on the goalie.  Like you mentioned though, sometimes when a team makes a mistake you rely on your goalie to bail you out with a huge save, this is something that Reimer didn't accomplish on Saturday.  Bernier did.

 

[Tigger]

Fwiw I blame Allaire for the whole debacle...