Grabovski Bought Out

[Zee]

Meanwhile, his agent thinks the Leafs "made a mistake" (to let Grabbo go)...

I?ve been with this kid from the beginning of his pro career and I know what he can do,? Greenstin said Friday. ?He?s a fighter, OK? I believe they made a mistake.?

Source:  Sportsnet

I really expected Grabovski's agent to say "great move by the Leafs everyone in the league knew my client was overpaid "

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I wonder why his offensive numbers were down this season?

 

[Andy007]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Btw. if we let MacArthur just walk it is also pure management, or is he also untradable?

I still don't get this line of thinking. So you are under the impression Nonis made an active decision to NOT trade Grabovski, despite there being a market for him? Is there are theory as to why a GM would rather pay a player off for 8 years and get nothing in return as opposed to getting an asset back and not paying them anything for 8 years?

This argument is like someone saying I'd rather give away 5 dollars than receive 10. It's absolute lunacy.

 

[drummond]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Btw. if we let MacArthur just walk it is also pure management, or is he also untradable?

I still don't get this line of thinking. So you are under the impression Nonis made an active decision to NOT trade Grabovski, despite there being a market for him? Is there are theory as to why a GM would rather pay a player off for 8 years and get nothing in return as opposed to getting an asset back and not paying them anything for 8 years?

This argument is like someone saying I'd rather give away 5 dollars than receive 10. It's absolute lunacy.

No. My way of thinking was that Nonis may have wanted to wait till deadline to trade Grabo or in general be more patient/prudent/conservative which were the features which have characterized him so far, but the man in charge Tim Lewieke said, hell no, I want star players, make an overhaul and Nonis acted.

 

[brothert]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Nonis apologists?  Just a minute...

Nonis indicated that it was tough to figure out what to do with Grabovski.
?This was not an easy decision to make as Mikhail made numerous contributions to our hockey club,? he said in a statement. ?This is a roster move that will give us salary cap flexibility moving forward.?

Source:  Sportsnet

See these are the statements I have hated from the Leafs management over the years. Its like the draft days of old "Fret not Leaf fans, sure we were brutal this year but we have a really high draft pick and we are going to pick a winner like Rob Pearson or Drake Berehowsky". The leafs have a terrible,TERRIBLE track record with this style of approach. We went from small steady increments under Burke to the clear the decks approach of the past.  Are we really going for another rebuild here where we don't see playoff hockey for another 5 years.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I get that Grabovski  is upset and is a hot head but he really should have taken the high road here. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Normally, I agree wholeheartedly. But in this particular case, it reminded some of Grabbo as a player. When he got knocked down, as he often did, he got back up feisty and charged back into the fray. He doesn't have great command of the language and I think he's wears his heart on his sleeve. So I'm cutting him some slack.

Between the defensive role forced on him, his situation & drop in ice time he was given and his intestine issues (losing weight, etc), I'm prepared to cut him a bit of a mulligan. I do not believe this season fairly represents his ability and it wasn't all his fault.

I think he'll come back and do decently as a 2nd line scoring center.

As for the knock on his not dishing the puck, he is a shooting center. But the offensive chaos the Kulemin-Grabbo-MacArthur line created in transition in seasons past led MacArthur & Kulemin to career highs offensively and I sincerely question that Grabbo doesn't deserve some credit for that.

I just look at the contrast with Komisarek being bought out and Grabovski. Komisarek could have moaned and groaned he wasn't given a shot this season in only 4 games but he acted with class.  Never like when someone burns bridges like that. Grabovski will do fine.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Different situations.  Komisarek, on the one hand, was expected to be bought out and never made any on-ice contributions to the Leafs in his time here.  Grabovski, on the other hand, was not expected to be bought out and a good chunk of Leafs fans loved the guy.  So for Komisarek, this was something he was likely expecting and was prepared, and probably hoping, for.  For Grabovski?  He's getting married the next day and likely isn't expecting to be bought out, so for him to talk to the media he's probably still in shock mode.

 

[Zee]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Nonis apologists?  Just a minute...

Nonis indicated that it was tough to figure out what to do with Grabovski.
?This was not an easy decision to make as Mikhail made numerous contributions to our hockey club,? he said in a statement. ?This is a roster move that will give us salary cap flexibility moving forward.?

Source:  Sportsnet

See these are the statements I have hated from the Leafs management over the years. Its like the draft days of old "Fret not Leaf fans, sure we were brutal this year but we have a really high draft pick and we are going to pick a winner like Rob Pearson or Drake Berehowsky". The leafs have a terrible,TERRIBLE track record with this style of approach. We went from small steady increments under Burke to the clear the decks approach of the past.  Are we really going for another rebuild here where we don't see playoff hockey for another 5 years.

Another rebuild?  Exactly what did Grabovski contribute to the team's success in making the playoffs while playing on the 3rd line?  He was a passenger most of the season, Boland can easily replace what he brought on the 3rd line.  They didn't need Grabovski's offense since Kadri emerged, so quit being so dramatic.  The core of the team is still in tact, this is hardly a complete tear down.

 

[Zee]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Btw. if we let MacArthur just walk it is also pure management, or is he also untradable?

I still don't get this line of thinking. So you are under the impression Nonis made an active decision to NOT trade Grabovski, despite there being a market for him? Is there are theory as to why a GM would rather pay a player off for 8 years and get nothing in return as opposed to getting an asset back and not paying them anything for 8 years?

This argument is like someone saying I'd rather give away 5 dollars than receive 10. It's absolute lunacy.

Another thing I forgot to mention about the Horcoff/Grabovski contracts, although the cap hit is the same, the actual money is far from it.  Horcoff was on a back diving contract and stands to make $4M this year and $3M next year, so a total payable of only $7M over 2 years.  Grabovski's salary was $6M this upcoming season alone.  So for about the same price of 2 years of Horcoff you get 1 year of Grabovski in actual money you have to pay.  Add to that fact that Grabovski was still owed $21.5M over 4 years it makes the situations totally different.  A team having to pay $7M vs. $21.5M is a no brainer.

 

[Corn Flake]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Btw. if we let MacArthur just walk it is also pure management, or is he also untradable?

The problem with your position is you assume Nonis is incompetent.  Up until now most have been relatively happy with his approach and his decisions.  Dumping Grabbo is a very unpopular move - clearly - but was it the right one?

The Horcoff comparison suggests that if Grabbo couldn't be traded and Horcoff could, then there's probably some very well known problem with Grabbo that we don't know the half of that no team would touch the guy. Nonis even offered to keep salary in a deal but couldn't find a trade partner.

Let me turn this around.. If he's as good as the Grabbo apologists say he is then why didn't he get scooped up on waivers or via a trade like Horcoff was?  Since he wasn't, what are we missing here? Perhaps either a) he is extremely overrated, b) his bad season was so bad that no team would risk it happening again or c) his health issues are significant enough they are expected to limit his ability to play at his peak if not worse for the rest of his career.

To me, if some team throws $25 mil at him today then we will know the reality of the situation. But they could have done so via picking him up on waivers and saved themselves a bidding war.  Didn't happen.  Soooooo... how do you conclude from all this that Nonis is the incompetent one who didn't try hard enough to trade him?

 

[brothert]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Nonis apologists?  Just a minute...

Nonis indicated that it was tough to figure out what to do with Grabovski.
?This was not an easy decision to make as Mikhail made numerous contributions to our hockey club,? he said in a statement. ?This is a roster move that will give us salary cap flexibility moving forward.?

Source:  Sportsnet

See these are the statements I have hated from the Leafs management over the years. Its like the draft days of old "Fret not Leaf fans, sure we were brutal this year but we have a really high draft pick and we are going to pick a winner like Rob Pearson or Drake Berehowsky". The leafs have a terrible,TERRIBLE track record with this style of approach. We went from small steady increments under Burke to the clear the decks approach of the past.  Are we really going for another rebuild here where we don't see playoff hockey for another 5 years.

Another rebuild?  Exactly what did Grabovski contribute to the team's success in making the playoffs while playing on the 3rd line?  He was a passenger most of the season, Boland can easily replace what he brought on the 3rd line.  They didn't need Grabovski's offense since Kadri emerged, so quit being so dramatic.  The core of the team is still in tact, this is hardly a complete tear down.

We've gotten rid of our 1C our 2C. We've traded a serviceable winger for a backup goalie(with potential). We let another winger hit free agency. We let our biggest hitter return to the KHL .  But wehave gobs of money saved up to spend on a group of mediocre free agents. In my viewing experience a high percentage of free agents don't perform to their contract. Heck our other buyout is a good example.  You can't buy team loyalty with money it has to be grown. Of course grabbo and all the others were dead weight and had nothing to do with the teams success  :

 

[TML fan]

Kadri is our 2C.

 

[Zee]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Nonis apologists?  Just a minute...

Nonis indicated that it was tough to figure out what to do with Grabovski.
“This was not an easy decision to make as Mikhail made numerous contributions to our hockey club,” he said in a statement. “This is a roster move that will give us salary cap flexibility moving forward.”

Source:  Sportsnet

See these are the statements I have hated from the Leafs management over the years. Its like the draft days of old "Fret not Leaf fans, sure we were brutal this year but we have a really high draft pick and we are going to pick a winner like Rob Pearson or Drake Berehowsky". The leafs have a terrible,TERRIBLE track record with this style of approach. We went from small steady increments under Burke to the clear the decks approach of the past.  Are we really going for another rebuild here where we don't see playoff hockey for another 5 years.

Another rebuild?  Exactly what did Grabovski contribute to the team's success in making the playoffs while playing on the 3rd line?  He was a passenger most of the season, Boland can easily replace what he brought on the 3rd line.  They didn't need Grabovski's offense since Kadri emerged, so quit being so dramatic.  The core of the team is still in tact, this is hardly a complete tear down.

We've gotten rid of our 1C our 2C. We've traded a serviceable winger for a backup goalie(with potential). We let another winger hit free agency. We let our biggest hitter return to the KHL .  But wehave gobs of money saved up to spend on a group of mediocre free agents. In my viewing experience a high percentage of free agents don't perform to their contract. Heck our other buyout is a good example.  You can't buy team loyalty with money it has to be grown. Of course grabbo and all the others were dead weight and had nothing to do with the teams success  :

Grabovski wasn't our 2C.  So right off you missed my point, he played the entire season as 3C and the Leafs were in the playoffs.  Kadri is his replacement as 2C.  Sure Frattin was a good winger but we have a young potential great goalie now to battle with Reimer.  MacArthur is a good winger as well and he still *could* re-sign with the Leafs, if not they'll have to look elsewhere.

Bozak although being the 1C by default on the Leafs, will never be a 1C on any other team in the league, he's just not that good.  He needs Kessel to produce his points not the other way around.  So to make some Leafs fans happy you'd want to re-sign Bozak to 8 years $5M+?  Please.

 

[brothert]

Kadri is our 2C.

For about 35 games he was. I am hoping that he can finally pull off a full season next year.

 

[armche123]

Kadri is our 2C.

HM: Grabo (thanks for playing this role for the last 4-5 years)

 

[Redleaf]

"I'm [expletive] happy right now," he told TSN.ca

"Of course I feel [expletive] sad," he continued...

You stay classy, Grabo-diego

The passions that unites us all?

 

[Zee]

Kadri is our 2C.

For about 35 games he was. I am hoping that he can finally pull off a full season next year.

The funny thing is everyone talks about Grabovski not getting enough ice-time, he average 15:34/game during the season, Kadri average 16:03 or just 30 seconds more per game, yet Kadri was able to produce regardless of the wingers he played with.  He actually seemed to develop chemistry with various players you played him with and almost put up a point a game.  Grabovski started the year as 2C and did nothing with it.  Then in the playoffs, Grabovski averaged 19:06/game -- 3rd most ice time of all forwards and still did nothing.  2 assists in 7 games and a -10.  Kadri only got 13:34/game in the playoffs and still managed 4 points in 7 games including a goal and was a +5.

Yeah Grabovski competed hard in the playoffs, skated hard, got knocked around, but in the end he didn't produce.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Nonis apologists?  Just a minute...

Nonis indicated that it was tough to figure out what to do with Grabovski.
?This was not an easy decision to make as Mikhail made numerous contributions to our hockey club,? he said in a statement. ?This is a roster move that will give us salary cap flexibility moving forward.?

Source:  Sportsnet

See these are the statements I have hated from the Leafs management over the years. Its like the draft days of old "Fret not Leaf fans, sure we were brutal this year but we have a really high draft pick and we are going to pick a winner like Rob Pearson or Drake Berehowsky". The leafs have a terrible,TERRIBLE track record with this style of approach. We went from small steady increments under Burke to the clear the decks approach of the past.  Are we really going for another rebuild here where we don't see playoff hockey for another 5 years.

Another rebuild?  Exactly what did Grabovski contribute to the team's success in making the playoffs while playing on the 3rd line?  He was a passenger most of the season, Boland can easily replace what he brought on the 3rd line.  They didn't need Grabovski's offense since Kadri emerged, so quit being so dramatic.  The core of the team is still in tact, this is hardly a complete tear down.

Interesting that you're okay with getting rid of Grabovski after one poor season where he apparently didn't contribute offensively to them making the playoffs (which ignores his defensive minutes freeing up others to focus offensively as well) when the biggest reason they made the playoffs was goaltending.  But how are we okay jettisoning Grabovski after one poor half-season offensively, but at the same time are fine with it because of Kadri who has yet to play enough or produce consistently enough to say anything definitive about him?  Grabovski was the best C we had, and as that usage graphic I posted above shows, always produced when being put in a reasonable position to be offensive.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Kadri is our 2C.

For about 35 games he was. I am hoping that he can finally pull off a full season next year.

The funny thing is everyone talks about Grabovski not getting enough ice-time, he average 15:34/game during the season, Kadri average 16:03 or just 30 seconds more per game, yet Kadri was able to produce regardless of the wingers he played with.  He actually seemed to develop chemistry with various players you played him with and almost put up a point a game.  Grabovski started the year as 2C and did nothing with it.  Then in the playoffs, Grabovski averaged 19:06/game -- 3rd most ice time of all forwards and still did nothing.  2 assists in 7 games and a -10.  Kadri only got 13:34/game in the playoffs and still managed 4 points in 7 games including a goal and was a +5.

Yeah Grabovski competed hard in the playoffs, skated hard, got knocked around, but in the end he didn't produce.

No, everyone talks about how Grabovski was not given enough offensive minutes. I and others pointed it out a hundred times this season. Look at the graphic above its clear as day the difference in his offensive zone starts. Look up his PP time last season compared to previous seasons.

It's a shortsighted move based on poor usage in a short season with small sample size.

 

[Zee]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Nonis apologists?  Just a minute...

Nonis indicated that it was tough to figure out what to do with Grabovski.
?This was not an easy decision to make as Mikhail made numerous contributions to our hockey club,? he said in a statement. ?This is a roster move that will give us salary cap flexibility moving forward.?

Source:  Sportsnet

See these are the statements I have hated from the Leafs management over the years. Its like the draft days of old "Fret not Leaf fans, sure we were brutal this year but we have a really high draft pick and we are going to pick a winner like Rob Pearson or Drake Berehowsky". The leafs have a terrible,TERRIBLE track record with this style of approach. We went from small steady increments under Burke to the clear the decks approach of the past.  Are we really going for another rebuild here where we don't see playoff hockey for another 5 years.

Another rebuild?  Exactly what did Grabovski contribute to the team's success in making the playoffs while playing on the 3rd line?  He was a passenger most of the season, Boland can easily replace what he brought on the 3rd line.  They didn't need Grabovski's offense since Kadri emerged, so quit being so dramatic.  The core of the team is still in tact, this is hardly a complete tear down.

Interesting that you're okay with getting rid of Grabovski after one poor season where he apparently didn't contribute offensively to them making the playoffs (which ignores his defensive minutes freeing up others to focus offensively as well) when the biggest reason they made the playoffs was goaltending.  But how are we okay jettisoning Grabovski after one poor half-season offensively, but at the same time are fine with it because of Kadri who has yet to play enough or produce consistently enough to say anything definitive about him?  Grabovski was the best C we had, and as that usage graphic I posted above shows, always produced when being put in a reasonable position to be offensive.

It's a tough new reality for the NHL, contracts and perceived value of the team.  The biggest improvement for Leafs was goaltending and PK, both of which Grabovski has nothing to do with.  He doesn't kill penalties, Jay McClement does, and he was the biggest reason for the PK improvement along with the improved play of Reimer.  People have already said Grabovski isn't a checking center, so how can you trumpet his defensive play as " freeing up others to focus offensively".  Grabovski simply isn't that good as a defensive center.  Boland and McClement will now fill that role and at a much cheaper price.  It's really quite simple.  Kadri is younger and cheaper and has more upside than Grabovski.

 

[L K]

To all Nonis apologists that he surely tried as hell to trade Grabbo, but he did not find any takers because of his 5.5M per contract - how come Edmonton managed to trade Shawn Horcoff, who is 5 years older, has exact same cap hit and does have more or less similar numbers as Grabovski...

Btw. if we let MacArthur just walk it is also pure management, or is he also untradable?

The problem with your position is you assume Nonis is incompetent.  Up until now most have been relatively happy with his approach and his decisions.  Dumping Grabbo is a very unpopular move - clearly - but was it the right one?

The Horcoff comparison suggests that if Grabbo couldn't be traded and Horcoff could, then there's probably some very well known problem with Grabbo that we don't know the half of that no team would touch the guy. Nonis even offered to keep salary in a deal but couldn't find a trade partner.

Let me turn this around.. If he's as good as the Grabbo apologists say he is then why didn't he get scooped up on waivers or via a trade like Horcoff was?  Since he wasn't, what are we missing here? Perhaps either a) he is extremely overrated, b) his bad season was so bad that no team would risk it happening again or c) his health issues are significant enough they are expected to limit his ability to play at his peak if not worse for the rest of his career.

To me, if some team throws $25 mil at him today then we will know the reality of the situation. But they could have done so via picking him up on waivers and saved themselves a bidding war.  Didn't happen.  Soooooo... how do you conclude from all this that Nonis is the incompetent one who didn't try hard enough to trade him?

I'm pretty darn neutral on him at this point.  The Bernier trade certainly wasn't a bad one.  He didn't really overpay or underpay so it will play out based on performance.  The Bolland trade I certainly do like on the other hand.  I'm assuming Bolland will be good but I thought Versteeg was going to be a good fit too.


Besides that he really hasn't done much with the team at this point.  He got Cody Franson on a 1-year deal, signed Lupul to an ok contract and claimed Frazer McLaren on waivers. 
We need to see what he does with Franson and Kadri's RFA contracts.  He needs to fix a lot of holes in the roster still.  I don't think there is any reason to question Nonis at this point, but I think it is a little early to claim much good about him either. 

Creating the cap space from Grabovski's deal isn't terrible but he needs to do something with it first.

The roster as of today is:

JVR - Bolland - Kessel
Lupul - McClement - Kulemin
Orr - <blank> - <blank>
<blank> - <blank> - <blank>

Phaneuf - Gardiner
Liles - Holzer
<blank> - <blank>

Reimer
<blank>

RFAs - Jonathan Bernier (G), Nazem Kadri (C), Joe Colborne (C), Frazer McLaren (W), Carl Gunnarsson (D), Cody Franson (D), Mark Fraser (D)
UFAs - Tyler Bozak (C), Clarke MacArthur (W), Mike Kostka (D), Ryan O'Byrne (D)

The Leafs have a lot of cap space right now but if he goes and wastes it all on overpaying someone like Clarkson the team is going to be no better. 

I don't think Nonis didn't do due diligence on trying to trade Grabovski now.  I just think that he could have waited to find a deal at a later date.  I'm not convinced that he's going to find a magical #1C option at this point to be honest.