Grabovski Bought Out

[GhostofPotvin29]

Considering Kadri and Franson still need to be signed and the Leafs have very little cap space less was keeping Grabovski over Bozak and having that extra 1.3 million on the books even an option?

Well, the compliance buyout that was used on Grabvoski could have been used on Liles instead.  So, although you'd lose $1.3 mil on the difference between Grabovski and Bozak, it would nonetheless have given at least another $2.55 to split between Franson and Kadri.

So lose Liles and Bozak for Grabovski with the hopes he turns it around?(btw, I'm pretty sure I read that some wanted to keep that compliance incase Graboski didn't turn it around)..And, without a compliance buyout left(if they did indeed use it on Liles), the Leafs would then somehow shed Grabovski's 5.5million a year salary next year if he remained a 3rd liner with little to no upside on either side of the puck? Which IMO was inevitable as Carlyle doesn't like the way he plays(and I can't really blame him).

What don't you like about the way he plays?  He was quite successful as a player during his time in Toronto.

 

[mr grieves]

I was referring to the next Stajan contract -- where Calgary signed him as a not-good but cheap, and probably moveable, 40-55 point center.

Right. Which he wasn't able to maintain. The poster in question, however, mentions Bozak as a 40-55 point center and how tradeable he'll be. I think it kind of goes without saying that if someone's production falls off a cliff that they'll be harder to trade *coughGrabocough*

As 40 point center on a first line at $4.2m, I don't think he'd be very tradeable. Relative to his contract, Stajan's production didn't really fall 'off a cliff' -- last season he was on pace for 43 points -- and, though Calgary was selling parts off, he wasn't moved. That Bozak isn't crippling his elite wingers' ability to score and is on a decent contract doesn't make him someone you'd trade for to be in your top six, I don't think.

However given Bozak's fairly consistent production over the course of his career, his age and Carlyle's seeming dedication to keeping him on the first line that doesn't seem to be all that serious a problem. 

The 'course of his career' is a half season as a rookie, an underwhelming sophomore campaign, a 47-point full season, and a 48-game season where you can project he might've got 49 points. It's not an extensive track record, really. And his 'age' is 'at the end of his prime.' But, agreed -- as long as Carlyle's committed to keeping him on a top line and nothing awful happens to JVR, Lupul, or Kessel, I don't think any severe drop off (30 point season, say) is very likely. 

Yeah, except I'm still not sure what attributes anyone's seen that'd suggest he's some sort of defensive stalwart.

You've made that pretty clear.

Wins face-offs, but somehow no one around him can maintain possession of the puck. Ends fewer shifts in the offensive zone than he starts there, so doesn't seem particularly good at moving the puck in the right direction. Is routinely beaten on the back-check by Phil Kessel. No noticeable aptitude for breaking up plays. Weak along the boards. He's made a few nice first passes to spring his wingers, and does well when he breaks away on the PK, but, yeah, overall I have a pretty good list of reasons to think he isn't well equipped to be an 'ideal' 3C.

Even if there were such a thing as an 'ideal' 3C making $4m.

 

[mr grieves]

Perhaps unsurprisingly, Brian Burke approves of the Caps signing Grabo:

General Manager George McPhee reached out to one of his mentors for an honest opinion on the 29-year-old center.
?We exchanged emails and I told him what I thought,? former Maple Leafs general manager Brian Burke said Monday at KCI, where he is attending the U.S. Olympic orientation camp as USA Hockey?s director of player personnel. ?I think Mikhail Grabovski is just a class act, he?s a warrior on the ice, he?s a gym rat off the ice. His preparation is unbelievable, he?s very serious about being a good hockey player and he was a joy while I had him in Toronto. He was a joy to have on the team.?

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capitals-insider/wp/2013/08/26/brian-burke-mikhail-grabovski-is-just-a-class-act/

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'd actually be very curious to hear Burke's thoughts on what Nonis has done this summer. I doubt he'd ever speak openly on the subject for professional and personal reasons though. But just from that you'd think he probably wouldn't have agreed with buying out Grabbo.

 

[Bender]

I'd actually be very curious to hear Burke's thoughts on what Nonis has done this summer. I doubt he'd ever speak openly on the subject for professional and personal reasons though. But just from that you'd think he probably wouldn't have agreed with buying out Grabbo.

Yeah but would he agree with any of the buyouts?

 

[Kin]

As 40 point center on a first line at $4.2m, I don't think he'd be very tradeable. Relative to his contract, Stajan's production didn't really fall 'off a cliff' -- last season he was on pace for 43 points -- and, though Calgary was selling parts off, he wasn't moved. That Bozak isn't crippling his elite wingers' ability to score and is on a decent contract doesn't make him someone you'd trade for to be in your top six, I don't think.

Well, A) Stajan's production absolutely did fall off a cliff. That it rebounded slightly last year doesn't make that less true and B) I think it also goes without saying that if Bozak's production is at the lower end of that spectrum he'll be harder to move however given that his production in his three good years has him as mentioned at 53.6 points per 82 games I think it's probably safe to assume that he's going to be more at the high end than the low end. Unless of course you think the team is going to bring Joey Crabb back to play with him and Kessel.

The 'course of his career' is a half season as a rookie, an underwhelming sophomore campaign, a 47-point full season, and a 48-game season where you can project he might've got 49 points.

Ah yes, that old rule from Math class: 49.9 rounds up unless you're psychotically obsessed with denigrating Tyler Bozak's hockey career in which case 49.9 should probably be expressed as 49.

It's not an extensive track record, really. And his 'age' is 'at the end of his prime.' But, agreed -- as long as Carlyle's committed to keeping him on a top line and nothing awful happens to JVR, Lupul, or Kessel, I don't think any severe drop off (30 point season, say) is very likely. 

I don't think 27 is at the end of a player's prime. I think most people would say that it represents the beginning of an athlete's prime or at least close to it. That said I think you're drastically underestimating just who can and will be traded in the NHL. This year threw that perception off a bit because the cap was dropping and teams were more reluctant than usual to add salary but a team adding Bozak as a 2/3 center, the kind of guy who can contribute positively in a top 6 or a 3rd line role wouldn't surprise me in the least, even if his production tails off into the lower end of what he's show capable of.

Wins face-offs, but somehow no one around him can maintain possession of the puck.

Winning face-offs is still seen as a positive quality around the league.

Ends fewer shifts in the offensive zone than he starts there, so doesn't seem particularly good at moving the puck in the right direction.

Actually, Bozak has ended shifts in the offensive zone more than he's started in two of his four seasons and last year he missed that distinction by .6% which probably amounts to...what one face-off? That said:

Evgeni Malkin hasn't finished more face-offs in the offensive zone than he's started in the last three years. Is Evgeni Malkin not good at moving the puck in the right direction? How about Phil Kessel. The same was true of him this year. Was Phil Kessel not good at moving the puck up ice? Patrick Kane and Jon Toews, bad puck movers? Anze Kopitar? The Sedin Twins? They know which end of the rink they're supposed to skate to?

Is routinely beaten on the back-check by Phil Kessel.

One of the fastest players in the league.

No noticeable aptitude for breaking up plays. Weak along the boards.

So just so we're clear...is this the place where people are supposed to have read a post where you routinely misrepresent Bozak's statistical record, choose to present his raw point totals rather than express them as per game like you do for the players you favour, make the claim that a random stat he shared last year with some of the best offensive players in the league is a negative indicator of his abilities and then think to themselves..."Yeah, I bet his subjective analysis of Tyler Bozak's defense is probably coming from a fair and impartial place."

He's made a few nice first passes to spring his wingers, and does well when he breaks away on the PK, but, yeah, overall I have a pretty good list of reasons to think he isn't well equipped to be an 'ideal' 3C.

Even if there were such a thing as an 'ideal' 3C making $4m.

Wins face-offs, good on the PK, can chip in offensively, generally decent defensively, throws the occasional hit. Provided that a team isn't using their #3 center in a strictly defensive role he fits the mold pretty well. 4.2 million is a lot of money, yeah, but if you look at what Boyd Gordon got to be an actual #3 center it's not like they're coming all that cheaper on the open market. If Bozak gets to a point where the team is looking to shop him it'll probably be with only a few years left on the deal by which time the cap will have risen significantly and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Boyd Gordon's of the world making Bozak type money as UFA's. For Bozak, a guy you can sell as a competent #3 with top 6 upside, moving him would be one of the least shocking shocking things I've experienced in my time as a hockey fan.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Considering Kadri and Franson still need to be signed and the Leafs have very little cap space less was keeping Grabovski over Bozak and having that extra 1.3 million on the books even an option?

Well, the compliance buyout that was used on Grabvoski could have been used on Liles instead.  So, although you'd lose $1.3 mil on the difference between Grabovski and Bozak, it would nonetheless have given at least another $2.55 to split between Franson and Kadri.

So lose Liles and Bozak for Grabovski with the hopes he turns it around?(btw, I'm pretty sure I read that some wanted to keep that compliance incase Graboski didn't turn it around)..And, without a compliance buyout left(if they did indeed use it on Liles), the Leafs would then somehow shed Grabovski's 5.5million a year salary next year if he remained a 3rd liner with little to no upside on either side of the puck? Which IMO was inevitable as Carlyle doesn't like the way he plays(and I can't really blame him).

What don't you like about the way he plays?  He was quite successful as a player during his time in Toronto.

I said Carlyle doesn't like the way he plays and I can't really blame him(for feeling the way he did). From what Carlyle saw there was nothing deserving of better than 3rd line minutes.

I said a page ago that I like Grabovski.

 

[princedpw]

Considering Kadri and Franson still need to be signed and the Leafs have very little cap space less was keeping Grabovski over Bozak and having that extra 1.3 million on the books even an option?

Well, the compliance buyout that was used on Grabvoski could have been used on Liles instead.  So, although you'd lose $1.3 mil on the difference between Grabovski and Bozak, it would nonetheless have given at least another $2.55 to split between Franson and Kadri.

So lose Liles and Bozak for Grabovski with the hopes he turns it around?(btw, I'm pretty sure I read that some wanted to keep that compliance incase Graboski didn't turn it around)..And, without a compliance buyout left(if they did indeed use it on Liles), the Leafs would then somehow shed Grabovski's 5.5million a year salary next year if he remained a 3rd liner with little to no upside on either side of the puck? Which IMO was inevitable as Carlyle doesn't like the way he plays(and I can't really blame him).

What don't you like about the way he plays?  He was quite successful as a player during his time in Toronto.

I said Carlyle doesn't like the way he plays and I can't really blame him(for feeling the way he did). From what Carlyle saw there was nothing deserving of better than 3rd line minutes.

I said a page ago that I like Grabovski.

Carlyle and the Leafs management staff should not be so short-sighted as to base their opinions on one unusual, lockout-shortened season as opposed to the bulk of a player's career over the last several years.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Considering Kadri and Franson still need to be signed and the Leafs have very little cap space less was keeping Grabovski over Bozak and having that extra 1.3 million on the books even an option?

Well, the compliance buyout that was used on Grabvoski could have been used on Liles instead.  So, although you'd lose $1.3 mil on the difference between Grabovski and Bozak, it would nonetheless have given at least another $2.55 to split between Franson and Kadri.

So lose Liles and Bozak for Grabovski with the hopes he turns it around?(btw, I'm pretty sure I read that some wanted to keep that compliance incase Graboski didn't turn it around)..And, without a compliance buyout left(if they did indeed use it on Liles), the Leafs would then somehow shed Grabovski's 5.5million a year salary next year if he remained a 3rd liner with little to no upside on either side of the puck? Which IMO was inevitable as Carlyle doesn't like the way he plays(and I can't really blame him).

What don't you like about the way he plays?  He was quite successful as a player during his time in Toronto.

I said Carlyle doesn't like the way he plays and I can't really blame him(for feeling the way he did). From what Carlyle saw there was nothing deserving of better than 3rd line minutes.

I said a page ago that I like Grabovski.

Carlyle and the Leafs management staff should not be so short-sighted as to base their opinions on one unusual, lockout-shortened season as opposed to the bulk of a player's career over the last several years.

Perhaps. Perhaps Grabovski took his 3rd line minutes much the way he took getting bought out and lashed out throughout the season.

 

[mr grieves]

Perhaps. Perhaps Grabovski took his 3rd line minutes much the way he took getting bought out and lashed out throughout the season.

Except there's, like, no evidence of that. The worst the rumors get is that he and Carlyle weren't on speaking terms.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Perhaps. Perhaps Grabovski took his 3rd line minutes much the way he took getting bought out and lashed out throughout the season.

Except there's, like, no evidence of that. The worst the rumors get is that he and Carlyle weren't on speaking terms.

And who would want a player on their team that wasn't on speaking terms with the coach?

 

[Highlander]

All I know is he is going to come back and bite us on the ass...Playing Washington just got a lot more interesting.

 

[Bullfrog]

All I know is he is going to come back and bite us on the ass...Playing Washington just got a lot more interesting.

Possibly, quite literally.

 

[Redleaf]

Of all the Leaf players, I really believe Grabo had the most passion for the game. But, from the sounds of it, Clarksons not a withering flower either. If we look at it as a trade, which or course it was not, I'd trade Grabbo for Clarkson any day of the week.

 

[Leafaholic99]

All I know is he is going to come back and bite us on the ass...Playing Washington just got a lot more interesting.

Possibly, quite literally.

;D

 

[Highlander]

Funny forgot about that finger thing when I wrote it.  :

 

[Leafaholic99]

Giving a tour to some big wigs from Washington, DC this morning at work that are looking to buy power from us, wearing my Leafs hoodie!! I wonder if they are hockey fans, hmmm.

 

[mr grieves]

As 40 point center on a first line at $4.2m, I don't think he'd be very tradeable. Relative to his contract, Stajan's production didn't really fall 'off a cliff' -- last season he was on pace for 43 points -- and, though Calgary was selling parts off, he wasn't moved. That Bozak isn't crippling his elite wingers' ability to score and is on a decent contract doesn't make him someone you'd trade for to be in your top six, I don't think.

Well, A) Stajan's production absolutely did fall off a cliff. That it rebounded slightly last year doesn't make that less true and B) I think it also goes without saying that if Bozak's production is at the lower end of that spectrum he'll be harder to move however given that his production in his three good years has him as mentioned at 53.6 points per 82 games I think it's probably safe to assume that he's going to be more at the high end than the low end. Unless of course you think the team is going to bring Joey Crabb back to play with him and Kessel.

But most of these reasons, as well as others, to feel confident that Bozak's production won't nosedive were true of Stajan when he signed his contract with Calgary. In some ways, there was more reason to be confident that Stajan would continue producing at a similar rate: he was younger, had a better PPG rate over the prior 2 and 3 seasons, and had another season playing with his team's top offensive talent. His PP time did get cut, but that's the sort of thing I expect will happen to Bozak too if Kadri's faceoff ability ever improves.

 

[Kin]

But most of these reasons, as well as others, to feel confident that Bozak's production won't nosedive were true of Stajan when he signed his contract with Calgary.

Not really. In the off-season after Stajan came to Calgary, the Flames added two veteran offensive centers, both of whom were more accomplished than Stajan. The idea that Stajan wasn't going to see a reduction of his ice-time in an offensive role when the team added Jokinen and Morrison doesn't seem particularly realistic and, in fact, that's exactly what happened. That hasn't happened in Toronto as the only new center is Bolland who, while a good player, is not expected to bump Bozak from his role. In fact, most of the summer you've argued the opposite. That Carlyle's determination to use Bozak in the same role is driving the decision making process. You can't have it both ways. Either Carlyle is amenable to the idea that Bozak isn't the best fit where he is or he isn't.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Wait, when did Grabovski get bought out?