Gustavsson

[ZBBM]

I think this is a better (but dated) read than Cox:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/whats-really-wrong-with-jonas-gustavsson/article1877422/page1/

In this coach's opinion, they should have let him develop in the AHL much more.  I think in hindsight we can all agree to that. 

And he thinks Allaire may not be the best coach for Gustavsson.

But with all the troubles he still thinks this:

It probably really frustrates him because he clearly has the potential to be an elite NHL goaltender. He just needs more time. If the Leafs will stay patient and positive with him, he can be a full-time starting goalie in the NHL.

That's what's intriguing about Gustavsson.  He's got skills that are potentially not just good, but could be elite.  I don't know if I would go that far, but I'd like to see them give him this season as a last chance.  Heck, they've been at least that patient and forgiving with the head coach.

 

[Stebro]

I agree that it's tough criticism, but that's why I wrote "If I'm gonna be extremly critical". He should have remembered what happend the last time, and kept that in mind. But yes, one may not be able to expect this vs one of the best players of all time.

No, but think about what Tigger is saying. Gus absolutely kept it in mind but the question is whether or not he should have cheated to ensure he didn't score in a similar way. When you've got as many tricks as Jagr does scoring one goal one way doesn't really tell you how he's going to go the next time. The one Gus stopped proved that Jagr isn't averse to the deke either.

Well what Jagr did on both goals were basically to wait until Gustavsson acted, wouldn't that be considered as cheating

 

[maplesyrup]

I think this is a better (but dated) read than Cox:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/whats-really-wrong-with-jonas-gustavsson/article1877422/page1/

In this coach's opinion, they should have let him develop in the AHL much more.  I think in hindsight we can all agree to that. 

And he thinks Allaire may not be the best coach for Gustavsson.

But with all the troubles he still thinks this:

It probably really frustrates him because he clearly has the potential to be an elite NHL goaltender. He just needs more time. If the Leafs will stay patient and positive with him, he can be a full-time starting goalie in the NHL.

That's what's intriguing about Gustavsson.  He's got skills that are potentially not just good, but could be elite.  I don't know if I would go that far, but I'd like to see them give him this season as a last chance.  Heck, they've been at least that patient and forgiving with the head coach.

Okay...if patience it the key, why not put him in the AHL? A move that in my opinion should have happened long ago. 

 

[Kin]

Well what Jagr did on both goals were basically to wait until Gustavsson acted, wouldn't that be considered as cheating

I guess we may just see those goals differently. I don't know that Gus "acted" on either goals rather than reacted to Jagr's shot.

 

[Tigger]

I think this is a better (but dated) read than Cox:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/whats-really-wrong-with-jonas-gustavsson/article1877422/page1/

In this coach's opinion, they should have let him develop in the AHL much more.  I think in hindsight we can all agree to that. 

And he thinks Allaire may not be the best coach for Gustavsson.

But with all the troubles he still thinks this:

It probably really frustrates him because he clearly has the potential to be an elite NHL goaltender. He just needs more time. If the Leafs will stay patient and positive with him, he can be a full-time starting goalie in the NHL.

That's what's intriguing about Gustavsson.  He's got skills that are potentially not just good, but could be elite.  I don't know if I would go that far, but I'd like to see them give him this season as a last chance.  Heck, they've been at least that patient and forgiving with the head coach.

Okay...if patience it the key, why not put him in the AHL? A move that in my opinion should have happened long ago.

Waivers.

 

[Tigger]

I agree that it's tough criticism, but that's why I wrote "If I'm gonna be extremly critical". He should have remembered what happend the last time, and kept that in mind. But yes, one may not be able to expect this vs one of the best players of all time.

No, but think about what Tigger is saying. Gus absolutely kept it in mind but the question is whether or not he should have cheated to ensure he didn't score in a similar way. When you've got as many tricks as Jagr does scoring one goal one way doesn't really tell you how he's going to go the next time. The one Gus stopped proved that Jagr isn't averse to the deke either.

Well what Jagr did on both goals were basically to wait until Gustavsson acted, wouldn't that be considered as cheating

I'll have to watch the replays but I don't remember it quite that way.

 

[maplesyrup]

I think this is a better (but dated) read than Cox:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/whats-really-wrong-with-jonas-gustavsson/article1877422/page1/

In this coach's opinion, they should have let him develop in the AHL much more.  I think in hindsight we can all agree to that. 

And he thinks Allaire may not be the best coach for Gustavsson.

But with all the troubles he still thinks this:

It probably really frustrates him because he clearly has the potential to be an elite NHL goaltender. He just needs more time. If the Leafs will stay patient and positive with him, he can be a full-time starting goalie in the NHL.

That's what's intriguing about Gustavsson.  He's got skills that are potentially not just good, but could be elite.  I don't know if I would go that far, but I'd like to see them give him this season as a last chance.  Heck, they've been at least that patient and forgiving with the head coach.

Okay...if patience it the key, why not put him in the AHL? A move that in my opinion should have happened long ago.

Waivers.

 

[Stebro]

Well what Jagr did on both goals were basically to wait until Gustavsson acted, wouldn't that be considered as cheating

I guess we may just see those goals differently. I don't know that Gus "acted" on either goals rather than reacted to Jagr's shot.

The way I saw it Gus goes down just before Jagr's shot, and I think that it was just what Jagr was waiting for, and that's what I meant by him cheating.

 

[maplesyrup]

Okay, so I have a goalie who might become a good one but he needs playing time bit I can't put him in the "A" because I might lose him to waivers and I can't play him because he hasn't exactly been great. Isn't the wise thing to do then is field offers for him?

 

[jonlleafs]

I've been in this guy's corner for a while, but now with Reimer, his shine has worn off.  I think he should have been able to stop both of Hartnell's goals.  Yes, there were defensive lapses on one where Hartnell force his way into the crease, but Gustavsson needs to find a way to keep his leg there.  The 2nd Hartnell goal should have been stopped.  It's not a rocket of a shot.  Just a one-timer that was fairly easy to see.  He just missed it.  I think Reimer makes that save because he's bigger and positionally sound.

 

[Tigger]

Well what Jagr did on both goals were basically to wait until Gustavsson acted, wouldn't that be considered as cheating

I guess we may just see those goals differently. I don't know that Gus "acted" on either goals rather than reacted to Jagr's shot.

The way I saw it Gus goes down just before Jagr's shot, and I think that it was just what Jagr was waiting for, and that's what I meant by him cheating.

The first goal there was really no movement from either Goose or Jagr, just a clean shot, the second goal Jagr gave a faint fake glove side before he shot blocker and it looks like Jonas took the bait to me.

 

[Kin]

The way I saw it Gus goes down just before Jagr's shot, and I think that it was just what Jagr was waiting for, and that's what I meant by him cheating.

I just can't agree. I don't think Gus went "down" in any meaningful way on the first one at any point.

 

[Tigger]

I've been in this guy's corner for a while, but now with Reimer, his shine has worn off.  I think he should have been able to stop both of Hartnell's goals.  Yes, there were defensive lapses on one where Hartnell force his way into the crease, but Gustavsson needs to find a way to keep his leg there.  The 2nd Hartnell goal should have been stopped.  It's not a rocket of a shot.  Just a one-timer that was fairly easy to see.  He just missed it.  I think Reimer makes that save because he's bigger and positionally sound.

He made a huge toe save before Hartnell fell on him and scored, one could make an argument that Hartnell should have got a penalty there, snow angels'r'us wouldn't have helped him.

The one timer was a quick play, lots of goalies would have trouble with that, no stick from the Toronto defender ( Gardiner? ) on a nice back hand pass.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Jaromir Jagr, currently 12th in all time goals scored in the NHL, probably will move up to 11th by Christmas.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/careerstats.htm?fetchKey=00002ALLSAHAll&sort=goals&viewName=careerLeadersAllSeasons

Sure, he's lost a step or two, but one on one against ANY goalie EVER I would bet Jagr every single time.

 

[jonlleafs]

I've been in this guy's corner for a while, but now with Reimer, his shine has worn off.  I think he should have been able to stop both of Hartnell's goals.  Yes, there were defensive lapses on one where Hartnell force his way into the crease, but Gustavsson needs to find a way to keep his leg there.  The 2nd Hartnell goal should have been stopped.  It's not a rocket of a shot.  Just a one-timer that was fairly easy to see.  He just missed it.  I think Reimer makes that save because he's bigger and positionally sound.

He made a huge toe save before Hartnell fell on him and scored, one could make an argument that Hartnell should have got a penalty there, snow angels'r'us wouldn't have helped him.

The one timer was a quick play, lots of goalies would have trouble with that, no stick from the Toronto defender ( Gardiner? ) on a nice back hand pass.

Yes, Gus did make a nice toe save just before that, but he must realize he has to keep his legs pressed hard against the goal post.  It was way too flimsy there.  I know it's easier said than done, but these guys are pros and they workout.  They should have the strength to do that.  Or at least do something.

The one-timer I still believe should have been stopped regardless if the defenseman put his stick in the way.  I was pretty pissed that went in. 

Either way, I think the Hartnell goals could have been prevented and the outcome could have been different for the game.  Gus did make some great saves last night and kept them in the game in the 1st, but he just can't do it for the whole game.  I mean, Reimer gives the team a chance to win throughout the whole game.  Gus will give up a bad goal here or there.

 

[Bender]

I've been in this guy's corner for a while, but now with Reimer, his shine has worn off.  I think he should have been able to stop both of Hartnell's goals.  Yes, there were defensive lapses on one where Hartnell force his way into the crease, but Gustavsson needs to find a way to keep his leg there.  The 2nd Hartnell goal should have been stopped.  It's not a rocket of a shot.  Just a one-timer that was fairly easy to see.  He just missed it.  I think Reimer makes that save because he's bigger and positionally sound.

On the first Hartnell shot? It was cross crease and a desperation save. He can't be looked at to make every save all the time. It's a stone cold fact that if you give your opposition multiple chances (lets say three) in tight in the crease on the same play you run a much higher risk of getting scored on than having three shots from the perimeter.

He made the initial big save and his team did nothing to help him and the puck goes in, and it's a save that's tough to quantify because it was through sheer athleticism, it's hard to say who would and wouldn't be able to make that initial stop.

To blame Gus for that goal is just downright unfair.

 

[Kin]

One of the things that I think ends up sort of being a football that gets kicked back and forth in an attempt to fit a narrative is the idea of a "stoppable" goal. I think that when you like a goalie the definition becomes a goal that, if not stopped, is really sort of embarrassing and a play not worthy of a NHL goalie.

When you don't like a goalie though, I think the definition broadens to "any goal that a goalie would have been physically able to stop". I think the Hartnell goals from last night were a pretty good example of that. Both were goals that were in the realm of human possibility to stop but neither goal is an embarrassing goal to give up.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

He's fighting the puck too much and making the easy saves look like they were difficult.  It also looks like his confidence is low.  I do not know if this is temporary or if this will be a regular pattern, but what he needs is a game in which he faces a ton of shots and stops most of them.  One thought I have is playing him against ottawa on the 30th.  If he cannot get up for that game, I do not see much hope. 

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

One of the things that I think ends up sort of being a football that gets kicked back and forth in an attempt to fit a narrative is the idea of a "stoppable" goal. I think that when you like a goalie the definition becomes a goal that, if not stopped, is really sort of embarrassing and a play not worthy of a NHL goalie.

When you don't like a goalie though, I think the definition broadens to "any goal that a goalie would have been physically able to stop". I think the Hartnell goals from last night were a pretty good example of that. Both were goals that were in the realm of human possibility to stop but neither goal is an embarrassing goal to give up.

That's where the dzone coverage broke down on the goal Hartnell lunged and poked over the goal line.  He needed to be flattened or tied up before he had the opportunity to lunge at the puck.

 

[Tigger]

I've been in this guy's corner for a while, but now with Reimer, his shine has worn off.  I think he should have been able to stop both of Hartnell's goals.  Yes, there were defensive lapses on one where Hartnell force his way into the crease, but Gustavsson needs to find a way to keep his leg there.  The 2nd Hartnell goal should have been stopped.  It's not a rocket of a shot.  Just a one-timer that was fairly easy to see.  He just missed it.  I think Reimer makes that save because he's bigger and positionally sound.

He made a huge toe save before Hartnell fell on him and scored, one could make an argument that Hartnell should have got a penalty there, snow angels'r'us wouldn't have helped him.

The one timer was a quick play, lots of goalies would have trouble with that, no stick from the Toronto defender ( Gardiner? ) on a nice back hand pass.

Yes, Gus did make a nice toe save just before that, but he must realize he has to keep his legs pressed hard against the goal post.  It was way too flimsy there.  I know it's easier said than done, but these guys are pros and they workout.  They should have the strength to do that.  Or at least do something.

The one-timer I still believe should have been stopped regardless if the defenseman put his stick in the way.  I was pretty pissed that went in. 

Either way, I think the Hartnell goals could have been prevented and the outcome could have been different for the game.  Gus did make some great saves last night and kept them in the game in the 1st, but he just can't do it for the whole game.  I mean, Reimer gives the team a chance to win throughout the whole game.  Gus will give up a bad goal here or there.

Watch the replay, Hartnell actually fell on Goose after the remarkable save ( no one pushed him either ) It's tough to do much of anything in that position, in fact Goose tried to let the refs know that after.

I just don't agree with your view on the second one either, nifty back hand pass that fooled the defenseman ( the stick I was talking about was for the pass, not the shot ) and a quick release high blocker side, it's a toughie for most human goalies to stop.

If Reimer gave that performance I think people wouldn't be saying quite the same things, Goose played just fine.