How have the Leafs made out this off-season?

[OldTimeHockey]

Well, that's the most optimistic take you can put on it, I guess.  As I see it, JVR is a big question mark and McClement's impact will be modest at best.  The goaltending is even weaker going in than last year, and, for all the knocks on Schenn, the D is arguably weaker as well.  Those 2 factors right there would lead me to predict that we could have a year like MTL did last year.

Not turning this into another referendum on Burke, but on the narrow question posed by the thread, his performance this offseason has been pretty thin.

And Nutman: you may be right about Carlyle, though.  That is an X-factor -- Wilson definitely held the team back.  If Carlyle gets the team playing cohesively like PHX does, then they might challenge for an 8th spot.

While I agree with most of what you said, how is the goaltending weaker than last year? Is there really a difference between Reimer/Gustavsson and Reimer/Scrivens?

i personally prefer Scrivens over Gustavsson. And in fact, like I've stated before, I think Scriven may even have a brighter future than Reimer(again, just my opinion).

So that leaves the question mark that is Reimer. I think many Leaf fans and the local media, played too much into Reimer's run at the end of the the 10/11 season. He was a question mark coming into last year and is once again one coming into this year.

 

[Mike1]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

 

[Redleaf]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

How can anyone say Luke Schenn didn't provide any value? This deal could still end up being one sided in a few years, and the winner won't necessarily be Toronto.

 

[Mike1]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

Because the team still has the same holes & shows an inability to address them. Do you know the next time there will be a no.1 center in Leafs line-up? How about a quality goalie? I dont....neither does anyone else.

With that in mind how can I honestly think they are headed in the right direction?

 

[drummond]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

How can anyone say Luke Schenn didn't provide any value? This deal could still end up being one sided in a few years, and the winner won't necessarily be Toronto.

Shipping out Luke Schenn also means opportunity for Holzer who may be the first Leaf since Dmitri Yushkevich not being afraid to clear bodies in front of the net.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

Because the team still has the same holes & shows an inability to address them. Do you know the next time there will be a no.1 center in Leafs line-up? How about a quality goalie? I dont....neither does anyone else.

With that in mind how can I honestly think they are headed in the right direction?

I guess the question I would have for you is:

Was there a #1 centre available?

Was there a #1 goalie available?

What would you have given up to get both of them?



As for Schenn adding value.....Yes, he did add value. He added the value of being able to acquire JVR.

5/6 dmen are not without value. They are just easier to move than a top 4 dman.

 

[moon111]

I wonder if Ron Wilson didn't drive Kadri to dig deeper and develop more.
Could he or someone like Colborne make the roster?  Imagine the Leafs
developing their own talent.  What a concept.

 

[Kin]

I guess the question I would have for you is:

Was there a #1 centre available?

Was there a #1 goalie available?

What would you have given up to get both of them?

Well, A) that's three questions and B) rthey seem to be sort of beside the point(although the obvious answer to the goalie question is yes).

But leaving aside who isn't or isn't available, largely because nobody can speak to that authoritatively without being an NHL GM, it's not really relevant if we're talking about a team's direction. The criticism is that the Leafs have holes at those two crucial positions and seem unable to address them. Is that abated by saying that acquiring them isn't easy? Or that those players haven't simply fallen into the team's lap? I think what it highlights is that the strategy of trying to acquire those players via trade or free agency is a lousy one because it depends so much on the decisions of people who have no vested interest in the Maple Leafs(to say nothing of the self-imposed handicap Burke put on the team when looking for FA's).

I mean, if you car runs out of gas, you can give all sorts of reasons as to why. Maybe you didn't pass a station, maybe you don't have enough money to pay for it. That all might be true, and maybe you think it means you're not to blame, but regardless it's pretty safe to say your car isn't going in the right direction.

As for Schenn adding value.....Yes, he did add value. He added the value of being able to acquire JVR.

Ok, so doesn't that mean that both players are of roughly equal value? So there's no clear net positive? I mean, you can dismissively call Schenn a 5/6 defenseman just like I can call JVR a third line winger, but they were traded straight up for each other.

 

[Rebel_1812]

wow Nik has negative 60 karma.  How does he do it ? ;-)

 

[Redleaf]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

How can anyone say Luke Schenn didn't provide any value? This deal could still end up being one sided in a few years, and the winner won't necessarily be Toronto.

Shipping out Luke Schenn also means opportunity for Holzer who may be the first Leaf since Dmitri Yushkevich not being afraid to clear bodies in front of the net.

My point was that JVR may continue to have an injury riddled career and turn into a liability. Whereas Luke Schenn may become the stud defenseman for Philadelphia a lot of us thought he could be in Toronto. Of course I hope that is not the case, but right now it could go either way.

 

[caver]

And after a season or 2 we can look back and see how JVR and Schenn have performed, but Nik's take on it is valid. 2 NHL GM's thought the players were of approximately equal value and swapped them. For now it may seem to strengthen both teams by filling positional needs but each team got a player and lost a player.

 

[Mike1]

I guess the question I would have for you is:

Was there a #1 centre available?

Was there a #1 goalie available?

What would you have given up to get both of them?

Well, A) that's three questions and B) both of them seem to be sort of beside the point(although the obvious answer to the goalie question is yes).

But leaving aside who isn't or isn't available, largely because nobody can speak to that authoritatively without being an NHL GM, it's not really relevant if we're talking about a team's direction. The criticism is that the Leafs have holes at those two crucial positions and seem unable to address them. Is that abated by saying that acquiring them isn't easy? Or that those players haven't simply fallen into the team's lap? I think what it highlights is that the strategy of trying to acquire those players via trade or free agency is a lousy one because it depends so much on the decisions of people who have no vested interest in the Maple Leafs(to say nothing of the self-imposed handicap Burke put on the team when looking for FA's).

Exactly. I dont know how you build a quality organization on just trades but thats the Leafs strategy. The question we should be asking is why arent we getting anything of quality out of the other two areas of team building? Free Agency is self-explanatory. Name me a player for any organization that signed as a free agent for 5 years & left offers of 10+ years on the table to sign with that team. If their is a list, its pretty short. The draft is an area where the team has struggled for a long time. In a salary-cap era, it kills you when you cant find talent. The team tends to draft players who have an average upside.

When you start putting these things together. You realize how flawed the organizational plan is. Trying to trade your way to a quality team, limiting FA spending & poor drafting isnt going to produce anything. The front office needs to stop over thinking things & get back to the basics.

 

[Mack674]

JVR is someone that isn't afraid to stand in front of the net and take punishment. He isn't a small dude either. That combination is something the Leafs have been lacking for a few years and if utilized properly he could really make a big difference in a number of ways.

Overall I think JVR will contribute more to the overall success of the team than Schenn did.

Alot of question marks again this year but I for one think it's not outside the realm of possibility that the Leafs could make the playoffs this year, perhaps even 6th or better.

Should Reimer have a good year (as long as we keep Gionta away from him), Kulemin return to form, Kadri make the team and have an impact, Colbourne, Gardiner imrpove over last year etc... any one or two of those scenarios could have an impact.

At least with Van Riemsdyk we have a legit first line for once. Lupul JVR and Kessel is as decent as most other teams top lines in the league. Im sure Tyler Bozak is a nice kid but uh... go back to the 3rd/4th line please.

 

[KW Sluggo]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

Because the team still has the same holes & shows an inability to address them. Do you know the next time there will be a no.1 center in Leafs line-up? How about a quality goalie? I dont....neither does anyone else.

With that in mind how can I honestly think they are headed in the right direction?

I guess the question I would have for you is:

Was there a #1 centre available?

Was there a #1 goalie available?

What would you have given up to get both of them?



As for Schenn adding value.....Yes, he did add value. He added the value of being able to acquire JVR.

5/6 dmen are not without value. They are just easier to move than a top 4 dman.

And just how many years now have we needed and been promised a #1 centre and improved goal tending (last summer was the only one in recent memory that the Leafs did not say better goal tending was needed -- and look how well that turned out)????

My estimation is in accord with that of Mike 1 and Nik3.

Mike1 is bang on in his assessment as to the flawed strategy of this latest edition of Leaf mismanagement.

Since Lockout 1, there have been very few decent UFAs -- by which I mean any UFA that could transform a roster --- and of those who did come available, we have netted zero.

It is clear that talent and cap space are the two most valuable assets. We  misspend and we misspend to the cap - every year too!

Yet we consistently miss the playoffs.

Can anyone seriously contend that this is good management?

Can anyone seriously question that this is very bad management?

I mean, really.

Draft. Draft Draft. That's all.

Sure, you have got to draft well (duh!) but throwing away draft picks sure has not proven to work going as far back as Walt McKechnie.

No playoffs next spring I fear.

Then we change GMs and then another coach and the cycle starts again.

Damn.

 

[Rebel_1812]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

How can anyone say Luke Schenn didn't provide any value? This deal could still end up being one sided in a few years, and the winner won't necessarily be Toronto.

Shipping out Luke Schenn also means opportunity for Holzer who may be the first Leaf since Dmitri Yushkevich not being afraid to clear bodies in front of the net.

My point was that JVR may continue to have an injury riddled career and turn into a liability. Whereas Luke Schenn may become the stud defenseman for Philadelphia a lot of us thought he could be in Toronto. Of course I hope that is not the case, but right now it could go either way.

That doesn't mean he would have got better if Toronto kept him.  Sometimes a player needs a change to get things going.  I wish schenn the best.

 

[skrackle]

I'm not expecting the Leafs to improve through UFA signings.

That was JFJ's post '04 lockout folly. For some reason, he thought he had a roster with potential that he could top up with the likes of Lindros, Allison, Gill, Blake, Domi and whoever else, and somehow convert a non-playoff team into a contender.

Much to my dismay, Burke carried on a similar strategy upon his arrival as Leafs GM. All I now hope (and there is some supporting evidence), is that Burke has had a change in philosophy.

UFAs may be the missing piece, once you have a team that can win on it's own. It's usually bad strategy to just throw money at a problem, as the Minnesota Wild are likely to find out.

Trades are always a gamble. You win some, you lose some. As for Burke's drafting, the jury is out. I'm not aware of any future superstars in the Leafs system, but there may be a good young core of talent and toughness that will emerge as a winning Leafs team a few years from now. If that happens, Toronto will be an attractive destination for UFAs.

Right now, I'm ok with seeing how the Leafs develop from here on with Burke as GM. I'm also ok with ownership deciding to replace him, if they do. It would depend on who they have lined up for the GM job.

 

[Rebel_1812]

The only number 1 center that was available as UFA was Brad Richards.  Even if we did sign him people would complain that he isn't big or physical enough.  So no option is perfect.  Jeff Carter and Jordan Stall are the best centers to have been traded, but I think Burke didn't have the assets to make those trades.  In terms of drafting, Forsberg and Griego were available in this years draft and could have filled that role if they developed. However, they were passover for an offensive defensemen under the reasoning of best player available. 

I guess, if he is not willing to sign the long term deals for UFAs or pay the price for a trade, he needs to draft centers regardless of BPA mantra.  Because obviously other types of players are easier to accquire.

 

[moon111]

Whether Burke had signed the second coming of Gretzky or not... would it make a big difference?  Maybe the team makes the playoffs.  But with a 3rd line something similiar to that of Boyce, Brent, and Crabb, they would of fizzled out.  Although not as important as the #1 center role, a guy like Mike Brown as your 4th line right-wing might be exactly what a club needs in that role.  Maybe Jay McClement and Dave Steckel are the perfect 3rd and 4th centers.  So although some of the most glaring issues remain unsolved, I think the more Burke has fixed the little ones.  If the league has a lock-out, the Leafs sure would be in a good position next season to sign some free-agents.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

How can anyone say Luke Schenn didn't provide any value? This deal could still end up being one sided in a few years, and the winner won't necessarily be Toronto.

Shipping out Luke Schenn also means opportunity for Holzer who may be the first Leaf since Dmitri Yushkevich not being afraid to clear bodies in front of the net.

My point was that JVR may continue to have an injury riddled career and turn into a liability. Whereas Luke Schenn may become the stud defenseman for Philadelphia a lot of us thought he could be in Toronto. Of course I hope that is not the case, but right now it could go either way.

It's pretty early to say he has an 'injury riddled career' - he had an injury riddled season no doubt, but the 2 previous he played 78 and 75 games.  It could be a blip in the radar, and thus far in their respective careers, I think vanRiemsdyk has been more impressive and is likely to be immediately (and arguably in the future too) the better/more impactful player.

But sure he could get injured tons the rest of his career, it's impossible to say.