How have the Leafs made out this off-season?

[#1PilarFan]

Well, you have to remember, those rankings are based on Rielly's injured season, whereas Burke's comments and the comments from the guy from CSS are based on what they feel about where he would have been had he been healthy all season. You're not going to see Rielly up there in the pre-draft rankings, because of the injury, but that doesn't mean a number of the scouts who created those rankings don't think that A) a healthy Rielly could have been the top ranked defenceman in the draft or B) a healthy Rielly could have been the top ranked player in the draft. The fact that he remained so high in the rankings even after missing 2/3 of the season shows just how highly he was thought of.

Sure, and again I'm not saying he's a talented guy. But like I said, nobody else seemed to be inclined to pick him with the first overall pick, so regardless of what one or two scouts may have said or whether it was injuries that prevented him from going higher, it still makes Burke's original statement at best unnecessary and at a worst, an all-out lie.

 

[#1PilarFan]

I'd offer the Leafs record since the last lockout in response.

It's terrible sure, but I'm not sure I follow your point. You said Burke has to sell the game and he does it by spewing nonsense on a pretty regular basis. The fact that he's fortunate to work in a market that won't be seriously threatened by several years of mediocre to awful teams doesn't change the fact that wins sell the game of hockey.

 

[#1PilarFan]

Actually it kind of does based on what I broke down below.  The catch being the Leafs still have yet to make it, but as suggested, sneaking in doesn't really mean a lot.  A long run of playoffs and maybe a significant run or two does.

I'm not 100% sure I'm following but if you're arguing that limited success is no better than no success, then I'd be inclined to disagree.

 

[Corn Flake]

Actually it kind of does based on what I broke down below.  The catch being the Leafs still have yet to make it, but as suggested, sneaking in doesn't really mean a lot.  A long run of playoffs and maybe a significant run or two does.

I'm not 100% sure I'm following but if you're arguing that limited success is no better than no success, then I'd be inclined to disagree.

I'm saying I'd rather see something built for long term success than get a "blip" of it like a few of those 9 expansion teams did, then fade off into struggles again for years. 

Are the Leafs built for long-term success? Jury certainly still out on that.  All I know is it takes a while to build a team from very little to work with to a consistent playoff team and eventual contender.

 

[Tigger]

I'd offer the Leafs record since the last lockout in response.

It's terrible sure, but I'm not sure I follow your point. You said Burke has to sell the game and he does it by spewing nonsense on a pretty regular basis. The fact that he's fortunate to work in a market that won't be seriously threatened by several years of mediocre to awful teams doesn't change the fact that wins sell the game of hockey.

I hate to say this but just the fact that people hang on his every word and dissect it to no end bears out the use of his soundbites, almost like the anti-JFJ. You asked if I would understand why statements like that would bother people ( which I answered ) not what sells hockey but in fact those sort of statements in this market do sell hockey, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it, nonsense or no.

I understand your pov but I don't agree with it, or rather, I don't see the need to care about what Burke says or doesn't say on any given day like that, there is no tree for that kind of plastic fruit.

 

[#1PilarFan]

That's where we disagree CF, I think it's clear the Leafs aren't built for long-term success. They have a few guys with bright futures ahead of them, but system, while deep, doesn't have the high-end talent you would expect from a team languishing in mediocrity for the better part of a decade. JFJ is to blame for a good chunk of that, but so Burke is not without blame. I mean, Burke retooled more than he rebuilt, which would be fine if it worked, but it didn't.

I just don't know how anyone can be overly optimistic about this team's present or future. 

 

[maplesyrup]

I just don't know how anyone can be overly optimistic about this team's present or future.

I agree with the present... That said, I disagee with the future. I really think there are a handful of intriguing prospects now. The fact that one if them probably isn't a #1 centre troubles me sure, but not to the point where I throw my hands up at the whole lot.   

 

[Corn Flake]

That's where we disagree CF, I think it's clear the Leafs aren't built for long-term success. They have a few guys with bright futures ahead of them, but system, while deep, doesn't have the high-end talent you would expect from a team languishing in mediocrity for the better part of a decade. JFJ is to blame for a good chunk of that, but so Burke is not without blame. I mean, Burke retooled more than he rebuilt, which would be fine if it worked, but it didn't.

I just don't know how anyone can be overly optimistic about this team's present or future.

Well the only thing there I can sort of agree with you on is what I see  missing from the overall stockpile of players is a truly elite "franchise" player, but in the drafts or opportunities to acquire players who have changed hands since Burke took over, I'm not seeing where the opportunity to land that player has come around.  There might only be 15 of them in the league to begin with. 

That said, I think Kessel gets unfairly looked down upon because of "the trade" and Phaneuf takes far more negative heat about his defensive game than he deserves, with most of the stats supporting that fact - both obviously key cogs in what Burke is trying to build.  I think both players are legit and while they aren't "franchise" players in the literal sense they are guys that can be big parts of a team that does do some damage.

IMO, if you dropped a #1 centre and a #1 goaltender into the mix of what is there today and developing, I think things change dramatically for the better and makes every player around those two key pieces better, especially the goalie. Neither of those two missing pieces has to be a super elite player either. 

Retool/Rebuild... I think Burke set out to retool but ended up in a rebuild, not so much by choice but due to how free agency shaped up the first two summers he had here. So if that means it was a failure by your criteria then call it what you need to. 

 

[Kin]

I just don't know how anyone can be overly optimistic about this team's present or future.

I think the key word there is overly. I think there are reasons to be intrigued by the Leafs going forward but in general I agree. The team as currently constructed doesn't seem to either be thought by many to be right on the precipice of contention nor does there seem to be any sort of widespread belief that the farm system is something to be reckoned with.

Maybe it's just me but I sort of feel as though the last few years have been waiting for the other shoe to drop, like eventually we're going to see what's going to kick this whole process into high gear only to find out that, sadly, this is high gear.

 

[TML fan]

There are 29 other teams to choose from.

 

[#1PilarFan]

There are 29 other teams to choose from.

So I can't be a Leafs fan because I think Burke's done a poor job of building a competitive team?

 

[Fanatic]

There are 29 other teams to choose from.

People always say that and of course it is true.... but in many ways I don't feel like I could ever really be a "fan" of another hockey team the way that I have been for the Leafs for about 40 years. I watch other teams with varying degrees of interest each year. In fact I was a "fan" of the Ducks the year that they won and ya that was sorta fun I suppose, but if the Leafs won the Cup that would be a whole different level of excitement.

For better or worse I think a lot of people are Leafs fans whether they still want to be or not. 

 

[Kin]

People always say that and of course it is true.... but in many ways I don't feel like I could ever really be a "fan" of another hockey team the way that I have been for the Leafs for about 40 years.

And I think some people forget that being a fan of an out of market team comes with real sacrifices/costs. Unless the only way you experience hockey fandom is via buying merchandise and watching games alone at home then there really aren't alternatives. Being a Leafs fan is part of the communal experience of living in this city/province.

 

[ZBBM]

To get back to the topic of this thread: Have we advanced at all toward being competitive for a playoff spot?  The consensus of pundits/experts I've read is clear -- not one is predicting us to make the playoffs this year, and many think other nonplayoff teams from last year will be passing us.

The bottom line is that we haven't advanced the current lineup much if at all.

 

[Redleaf]

There are 29 other teams to choose from.

So I can't be a Leafs fan because I think Burke's done a poor job of building a competitive team?

I guess it sort of depends on what makes you a fan of this team. It is the management, the current collection of players or the distant past accomplishments?

 

[TML fan]

There are 29 other teams to choose from.

So I can't be a Leafs fan because I think Burke's done a poor job of building a competitive team?

Sure you can.

 

[Corn Flake]

To get back to the topic of this thread: Have we advanced at all toward being competitive for a playoff spot?  The consensus of pundits/experts I've read is clear -- not one is predicting us to make the playoffs this year, and many think other nonplayoff teams from last year will be passing us.

The bottom line is that we haven't advanced the current lineup much if at all.

Ah the experts. Where would we be without them telling us that Philli will win the cup pretty much every year. 

We could get into a large discussion about how the other teams have fared but in summary, (IMO) MTL and NYI as the only teams who could technically pass the Leafs aren't going to. For teams ahead of Toronto I only see Carolina as one that made significant upgrades could be a legit playoff threat.  Wpg, Ott, Fla and Buf all stood still or regressed and much like Toronto are relying on young players to get better to make the difference. NJ and Philli either lost or lost out on acquiring difference makers. Philli has massive gaping holes on defense due to injury.

Of the non-playoff teams who made improvements via signing or trade this off season I could make the point the Leafs might be second behind Carolina.  The Hurricanes added an enigmatic sniper and a centre who we Leafs fans spent all last year arguing whether he was any better than an average #2.  The Leafs added JVR which in a different way could have as much impact at J Staal has on Carolina, maybe a touch more if he breaks out this year.

 

[Kin]

To get back to the topic of this thread: Have we advanced at all toward being competitive for a playoff spot?  The consensus of pundits/experts I've read is clear -- not one is predicting us to make the playoffs this year, and many think other nonplayoff teams from last year will be passing us.

The bottom line is that we haven't advanced the current lineup much if at all.

Through outside acquisitions, no. The Leafs have made two significant moves in terms of the big club and one of those is a trade that got mixed reviews.

It's harder to gauge the internal stuff but one notable area where the Leafs might be a step or two behind other clubs in a similar boat is that I don't even know how many guys are projected to even make the big club who weren't around last year. Holzer seems like a good bet. People seem pretty iffy on Kadri/Colborne.

Compare that to a situation like FLA where it seems pretty likely that Markstrom and/or Huberdeau make the team this year and I'm inclined to agree with that consensus.

 

[nutman]

last season we showed the mix was there to win but we lacked coaching. I think with Carlyle now in charge we have the coach to pull us out of that slump when needed. our d should also tighten up big time. the biggest hole the leafs had was at coach. as anyone knows we were top ten in scoring so crying for  a top center is a waist of time right now. I think colburne will fill that hole maybe not this season but next for sure.in a nut shell  its how our d and goaltending come together that will tell the tale.

as for pilerfan... hang in there. you sound very bitter with Burke, I hope in the end he proves you wrong.

 

[ZBBM]

To get back to the topic of this thread: Have we advanced at all toward being competitive for a playoff spot?  The consensus of pundits/experts I've read is clear -- not one is predicting us to make the playoffs this year, and many think other nonplayoff teams from last year will be passing us.

The bottom line is that we haven't advanced the current lineup much if at all.

Ah the experts. Where would we be without them telling us that Philli will win the cup pretty much every year. 

We could get into a large discussion about how the other teams have fared but in summary, (IMO) MTL and NYI as the only teams who could technically pass the Leafs aren't going to. For teams ahead of Toronto I only see Carolina as one that made significant upgrades could be a legit playoff threat.  Wpg, Ott, Fla and Buf all stood still or regressed and much like Toronto are relying on young players to get better to make the difference. NJ and Philli either lost or lost out on acquiring difference makers. Philli has massive gaping holes on defense due to injury.

Of the non-playoff teams who made improvements via signing or trade this off season I could make the point the Leafs might be second behind Carolina.  The Hurricanes added an enigmatic sniper and a centre who we Leafs fans spent all last year arguing whether he was any better than an average #2.  The Leafs added JVR which in a different way could have as much impact at J Staal has on Carolina, maybe a touch more if he breaks out this year.

Well, that's the most optimistic take you can put on it, I guess.  As I see it, JVR is a big question mark and McClement's impact will be modest at best.  The goaltending is even weaker going in than last year, and, for all the knocks on Schenn, the D is arguably weaker as well.  Those 2 factors right there would lead me to predict that we could have a year like MTL did last year.

Not turning this into another referendum on Burke, but on the narrow question posed by the thread, his performance this offseason has been pretty thin.

And Nutman: you may be right about Carlyle, though.  That is an X-factor -- Wilson definitely held the team back.  If Carlyle gets the team playing cohesively like PHX does, then they might challenge for an 8th spot.