Jays Roster Discussion

[sickbeast]

They didn?t either rebuild or build around what they had. Became less competitive and squandered assets. This discussion has been had.

Well, sorry if you've had this conversation, because every time I see something like the above, I literally think of all the people who used to say "the Leafs can never rebuild". The Jays have pretty clearly been rebuilding.

They tried to hedge on Donaldson and it blew up in their face, but if Donaldson had gotten back to MVP form in St Louis, it might have accelerated the Jays rebuild, but would have been heartbreaking. If he'd gotten back to that form here, then who knows...

Did you see Donaldson's comments about the Blue Jays training staff, and also Shapiro somewhat indirectly?

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/mlb/unveiled-in-atlanta-ex-blue-jay-josh-donaldson-takes-shot-at-former-team?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1543415812

We had probably the best GM in the game and then Rogers basically replaced him by hiring Shapiro to try and save money.  That should tell you all you need to know as a fan.  Attendance was good, the organization was profitable.  Prior to Shapiro being hired the Blue Jays had a great vibe from Beeston all the way down.  Shapiro has systematically gutted pretty much all of that from the organization at this point.  It's hard to watch as fan.  You guys can talk about the rebuild and this and that.  IMO that's all nonsense.  The bottom line is that the team is poorly run from the top down.  Donaldson makes a good point.  Why did Shapiro fire the former training staff?  The same goes for the large number of Canadian employees within the organization that he has fired so he can replace them with his American cronies.  This is all about power, control, and manipulation and I will not support it as a fan.  Our family has cancelled our seasons tickets and we had four of them.  You guys will see, that place will be a ghost town this season.  All because the soul of the team has been sucked out by greedy ownership and a sleazy shill of a team president.

What did you think was going to happen to ?the soul of the team??Donaldson should be focused on staying on the park, because if he can?t, he?s not getting another $23M deal next year.

Even if Anthropolous has stayed - and remember, he wasn?t fired - he had traded all his chips for those 2 runs, and then left rather than deal with the fallout.

That your family chooses not to support the team via season tickets anymore now is a fair use of your money. As far as I can see - and feel free to demonstrate where I?m wrong, but it not Donaldson, it?s not Encarnacion, and it?s ceronot the training staff - the Jays are being run in a sensible manner and dealing with the necessity of re-invigorating their 40 man roster to be competitive... if that costs them the support of a certain bracket of fans, that?s only to be expected.

Agreed. It will be a ghost town because the Jays aren't the Leafs - winning changes everything. And I'm sorry to say the window for the team that AA built was a few years at most and the prospect pool was empty when he left.

JD can say what he likes but he should prove it on the field this year before blaming different staff.

I call BS they had 3 top prospects in Osuana, Sanchez, and Stroman on their roster. They were in a great place and Shapiro neither added the right pieces or recouped anything. Worst rebuild ever. Total buzz kill from day one and complete inept job done to date. A complete PR disaster to boot.

You call BS and all I have to do is call Syndergaard. I'll have to do more research to add more to the conversation but that's how I recall things playing out - we doubled down on a roster with a small window.

Everyone is angry at Shapiro for having to clean up AA's mess and for the team not being very good once he bailed when he realized the writing was on the wall. Like many other people that are revered by others,  he wasn't around long enough to fail. If AA were here now he'd be just as loathed as Shapiro because, like I said, winning changes everything and they haven't been winning.

Yep Shapiro been great... we're definitely on track...

That?s the thing. And Shapiro basically admitted that they should have started the rebuild earlier but there were external factors. The team is poorly run, let?s face it. I can name at least five major assets that they mismanaged. Excellent assets that they could have parlayed into very nice prospects that would have put us into a position similar to the Houston Astros. Now we?re stuck with a handful of very good to elite prospects. I don?t think it will be enough. Not against the Yankees and the Red Sox. I don?t see the endgame here. That?s the sad part. At least when the Leafs tanked they did it right and we had hope. I?m really down about the Jays and I?m a really huge fan. It was pretty upsetting for us to sell the season tickets. We did not take the decision lightly.

 

[Kin]

Whatever the process is, it isn't over. They can still move Smoak and other players this year. They're going to have the 11th pick in the draft next year and probably another high pick the year after. They can sign mid-tier UFAs and move them as well.

And, again, they still have one of the best farm systems in baseball with maybe the single best prospect in baseball. That is not a bad outcome of a rebuild.

 

[sickbeast]

Whatever the process is, it isn't over. They can still move Smoak and other players this year. They're going to have the 11th pick in the draft next year and probably another high pick the year after. They can sign mid-tier UFAs and move them as well.

And, again, they still have one of the best farm systems in baseball with maybe the single best prospect in baseball. That is not a bad outcome of a rebuild.

True, it's not bad, but it could have been *so* much better.  Look at it this way, until recently the Yankees had an equivalent or better farm system, they went to the playoffs, *and* they have endless cash and an ownership that wants to win.  That's what the Jays are up against.  And it doesn't even take the Red Sox into consideration.  The Jays only chance at contention is a stacked farm system that they can parlay into elite rentals like what AA did.

Also for all I know the Yankees could still have a farm system that's just as good as the Blue Jays.  They have been slowly emptying the cupboard and I don't know where they are at currently.

 

[Kin]

True, it's not bad, but it could have been *so* much better.  Look at it this way, until recently the Yankees had an equivalent or better farm system, they went to the playoffs, *and* they have endless cash and an ownership that wants to win.  That's what the Jays are up against.  And it doesn't even take the Red Sox into consideration.  The Jays only chance at contention is a stacked farm system that they can parlay into elite rentals like what AA did.

Also for all I know the Yankees could still have a farm system that's just as good as the Blue Jays.  They have been slowly emptying the cupboard and I don't know where they are at currently.

That midseason ranking had the Yankees at #10 overall but they've since traded away their top prospect in the James Paxton deal so odds are they're quite a bit lower.

I feel pretty confident that the best way for the Jays to compete is to actually use the farm system to get good players and then supplement those players with free agency and trades when it's appropriate. Not only do I think it will result in better teams than AA ever put together, they'll be competitive longer. The Jays won't ever be the Yankees when it comes to player acquisition but they're not the Rays either. When they need to, Rogers has proven they can spend akin to a mid-tier team which the Jays more or less are.

As to whether or not it could have been better than it currently is, outside of the Donaldson situation I don't see that as being true and as I've discussed on here before, I think they can be forgiven for hoping that Donaldson would bounce back this year and make himself a valuable deadline piece. He didn't, which sucks, but I'm not going to let that colour the fact that they've done a very good job rebuilding the farm system. Past that, I don't think there are any situations where they could have done a lot better than they did.

 

[sickbeast]

True, it's not bad, but it could have been *so* much better.  Look at it this way, until recently the Yankees had an equivalent or better farm system, they went to the playoffs, *and* they have endless cash and an ownership that wants to win.  That's what the Jays are up against.  And it doesn't even take the Red Sox into consideration.  The Jays only chance at contention is a stacked farm system that they can parlay into elite rentals like what AA did.

Also for all I know the Yankees could still have a farm system that's just as good as the Blue Jays.  They have been slowly emptying the cupboard and I don't know where they are at currently.

That midseason ranking had the Yankees at #10 overall but they've since traded away their top prospect in the James Paxton deal so odds are they're quite a bit lower.

I feel pretty confident that the best way for the Jays to compete is to actually use the farm system to get good players and then supplement those players with free agency and trades when it's appropriate. Not only do I think it will result in better teams than AA ever put together, they'll be competitive longer. The Jays won't ever be the Yankees when it comes to player acquisition but they're not the Rays either. When they need to, Rogers has proven they can spend akin to a mid-tier team which the Jays more or less are.

As to whether or not it could have been better than it currently is, outside of the Donaldson situation I don't see that as being true and as I've discussed on here before, I think they can be forgiven for hoping that Donaldson would bounce back this year and make himself a valuable deadline piece. He didn't, which sucks, but I'm not going to let that colour the fact that they've done a very good job rebuilding the farm system. Past that, I don't think there are any situations where they could have done a lot better than they did.

The whole thing with Donaldson was shortsighted.  They were offered the eventual rookie of the year pitcher for him.  They should have taken it.  Anyone in their right mind would have.

Then there is Bautista, a franchise icon, who was unceremoniously shown the door when they could have had him for under a million last season.  He should have been made a coach IMO.  Some kind of role within the organization.

The whole Edwin negotiation was botched completely and really I think he had more value to the club than people realize.  Super great clubhouse guy.  My family got to meet him as seasons ticket holders.  Super nice guy with a great sense of humor.

There were other moves also.  I just think if they had gone with a scorched earth rebuild a year or two ago they would have gotten full value for a number of assets that they wound up getting little to nothing for.

In my own way I respect Shapiro as a penny pinching scrooge but I don't think he suits the Jays market or what they need.  When they got him I thought he might do great with a higher payroll than he had in Cleveland but so far all I have seen him do is slash and burn and make some boneheaded moves also.

The thing is also, and this is my own bias coming into play, I really liked AA.  Moreso than any Blue Jays GM I can remember since the glory days when they made the playoffs.  There was something about the way he conveyed himself and interacted with the players.  Shapiro seems fake and untrustworthy in comparison.  AA was warm, personable, enthusiastic, and most importantly, Canadian.  Worked his way to the top from the very bottom of the organization.  That's the kind of culture I would want within the team.  Not this slash and burn, fire everyone and replace them with people from Cleveland.  What message does that send the staff?  What motivation do they have to do their best or work hard if they don't have a realistic chance of moving up?

Anyhow this is flogging a dead horse, as usual.  We are going to have to agree to disagree.  Shapiro is one of the biggest idiots I have ever seen.  If you see it differently, good for you.

 

[Kin]

The whole thing with Donaldson was shortsighted.  They were offered the eventual rookie of the year pitcher for him.  They should have taken it.  Anyone in their right mind would have.

This is not true. They weren't offered the eventual rookie of the year. The player they were offered for him, Jack Flaherty, eventually finished 5th in rookie of the year voting by virtue of getting a couple of fifth place votes. .

Should they have taken the deal? Obviously with hindsight, yes. Is it a catastrophe? No. Was it unreasonable to bet on him to have a good walk year? No.

Then there is Bautista, a franchise icon, who was unceremoniously shown the door when they could have had him for under a million last season.  He should have been made a coach IMO.  Some kind of role within the organization.

He was done as a player, his year proved that, but he still wanted to play. Part of rebuilding is giving at-bats to younger players and Hernandez and Grichuk were here for that very reason. If Bautista wants to move into coaching, that's one thing but big league coaching jobs shouldn't be legacy roles. He should earn it with coaching at lower levels.

The whole Edwin negotiation was botched completely and really I think he had more value to the club than people realize.  Super great clubhouse guy.  My family got to meet him as seasons ticket holders.  Super nice guy with a great sense of humor.

I'm sure Edwin is a lovely fellow. That said, I don't think the deal he wanted to sign made sense and I don't think trading him during the 2016 season made sense either. They got a comp pick for him, they used it smartly on Pearson who is now a very good prospect. I don't think that counts as completely botching the situation.

In my own way I respect Shapiro as a penny pinching scrooge but I don't think he suits the Jays market or what they need.  When they got him I thought he might do great with a higher payroll than he had in Cleveland but so far all I have seen him do is slash and burn and make some boneheaded moves also.

And build one of the better farm systems in baseball. I will take a carpet bagger who will build the team and not sacrifice things for short term gains.

 

[sickbeast]

Well if Shapiro brings us a winner I will eat my hat *and* my shorts.  I feel it is far more likely he is going to run the franchise into the ground and Rogers Centre will be a ghost town.  You'll see.

 

[dappleganger]

Just wanted to say this, It was Encarnacion's camp that botched the negotiations, not the Jays. Seems the Jays were pretty spot on.

 

[Kin]

Just wanted to say this, It was Encarnacion's camp that botched the negotiations, not the Jays. Seems the Jays were pretty spot on.

I just wish people were more realistic about what actually happened there. Edwin got paid and good for him but he got 60 million over three years and has put up seasons of 2.9 and 1.9 BWAR. Morales has been terrible, sure, but the difference is between being a 76 and a 79 win team one year and a 73 and 75 win team the next.

Having Edwin around would have been nice as he'll probably hit his 400th HR next year and that would have been a nice moment for the fans but by letting him walk the Jays got the pick and could develop Pearson rather than hoping that he maybe has a good enough year this year to get a good return.

It was a bloodless move, sure, but probably the right one for a rebuilding team.

 

[sickbeast]

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not going to be the saviour for this team.  Not even close.  The team would need at least 5 players like him to get them even remotely close to where they need to be.

The Blue Jays are currently a complete mess.  I'm not even going to watch the games for the foreseeable future.

 

[Deebo]

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not going to be the saviour for this team.  Not even close.  The team would need at least 5 players like him to get them even remotely close to where they need to be.

The Blue Jays are currently a complete mess.  I'm not even going to watch the games for the foreseeable future.

There haven't been 5 players rated as high as him across the league in 20 years.

They also have Bichette and Jansen.

How much do you actually know about the farm system?

 

[Kin]

First it was that they hadn't committed enough to the rebuild, now it's that they don't have enough good players on the big league club? It can't really be both. 

Like I said before, the rebuilding isn't over. They picked Groshans last year. They have the 11th pick coming up. They'll probably have at least another year of drafting fairly high. Guerrero is just the biggest prospect in a very good system that's going to get better.

 

[IJustLurkHere]

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.

Smoak put up an .808 OPS with little protection while being a finalist for a gold glove, so I don?t think his being #1 Jay is the damning indictment you are making out.

The team won 73 games in 2018, they?re obviously more than a single player away.

 

[sickbeast]

First it was that they hadn't committed enough to the rebuild, now it's that they don't have enough good players on the big league club? It can't really be both. 

Like I said before, the rebuilding isn't over. They picked Groshans last year. They have the 11th pick coming up. They'll probably have at least another year of drafting fairly high. Guerrero is just the biggest prospect in a very good system that's going to get better.

Smoak is just another example.  He should have been traded.  Why keep him?  Vladdy Jr. is projected to be more of a 1B anyways.  And Smoak has value.  I would say he had more value last season at the deadline.

And yes, that is the problem.  They tanked halfway.  Not even halfway.  A mini tank.  They basically had thoughts of competing and then panicked when that didn't work out.

 

[sickbeast]

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not going to be the saviour for this team.  Not even close.  The team would need at least 5 players like him to get them even remotely close to where they need to be.

The Blue Jays are currently a complete mess.  I'm not even going to watch the games for the foreseeable future.

There haven't been 5 players rated as high as him across the league in 20 years.

They also have Bichette and Jansen.

How much do you actually know about the farm system?

Enough to know that even if a bunch of those guys pan out they still won't be where they need to be.

The Yankees with their endless cash just had a farm system like that and good players on their roster also and they still didn't win it all.

The MLB as currently constructed is pay to win.  Rogers and Shapiro are too cheap to ever win in this market IMO.  They say they will raise payroll but it will never be enough to win it all IMO.

 

[sickbeast]

Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.

Smoak put up an .808 OPS with little protection while being a finalist for a gold glove, so I don?t think his being #1 Jay is the damning indictment you are making out.

The team won 73 games in 2018, they?re obviously more than a single player away.

I'd be interested to see a team with a worse best player on their roster.  I'd venture to guess there aren't too many.

 

[Kin]

Smoak is just another example.  He should have been traded.  Why keep him?  Vladdy Jr. is projected to be more of a 1B anyways.  And Smoak has value.  I would say he had more value last season at the deadline.

More value than when? Now? Or next year's deadline? How could you possibly know that?

If Guerrero is ready to be a full time 1B when he gets called up, as opposed to DHing, they can trade Smoak then. Until then, they need warm bodies. Smoak isn't a huge difference maker and the return on him isn't going to be huge but it's not a big deal either way.

That said it is at least a little funny that you're lamenting the lack of good young players on the Blue Jays right now while not recognizing that it's precisely that lack of good young players which is why a rebuild was needed. If AA had done a decent job of drafting and developing players, there'd be better players on the Blue Jays than Smoak. Because he didn't, the Jays have to grow their own. You may not like it but that takes time.

 

[sickbeast]

Smoak is just another example.  He should have been traded.  Why keep him?  Vladdy Jr. is projected to be more of a 1B anyways.  And Smoak has value.  I would say he had more value last season at the deadline.

More value than when? Now? Or next year's deadline? How could you possibly know that?

If Guerrero is ready to be a full time 1B when he gets called up, as opposed to DHing, they can trade Smoak then. Until then, they need warm bodies. Smoak isn't a huge difference maker and the return on him isn't going to be huge but it's not a big deal either way.

That said it is at least a little funny that you're lamenting the lack of good young players on the Blue Jays right now while not recognizing that it's precisely that lack of good young players which is why a rebuild was needed. If AA had done a decent job of drafting and developing players, there'd be better players on the Blue Jays than Smoak. Because he didn't, the Jays have to grow their own. You may not like it but that takes time.

I would have traded Smoak at the first decent offer.  I'm sure he would have been of value to someone out there at some point.

I thought AA did fine with prospects.  Wasn't Vladdy Jr. his doing?  Didn't he send Edwin down there to recruit him?

Syndergaard was another good one.  Trading him for Dickey was AA's one true bonehead move.

Stroman, Sanchez, plus others.  The list goes on.  AA built up enough prospect capital to almost win it all in this market.  And pretty much all the pieces he traded away didn't pan out.

AA was a wily and creative thinker.  I quite like him.  It will be interesting to follow Atlanta now.

 

[Kin]

I thought AA did fine with prospects.  Wasn't Vladdy Jr. his doing?  Didn't he send Edwin down there to recruit him?

Then why don't the Jays have a lot of good young players? Why did so many of his draft picks not make a mark in the Major Leagues?

Here's the 2010 draft. AA taking Deck McGuire in the first round over Chris Sale and Christian Yelich:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Major_League_Baseball_draft

And on and on. From 2010 until he left the team, Stroman is the only the first round pick that made even the slightest impact on the team, including the multiple picks they blew on guys they couldn't even sign. Frankly, his record sucks.

Syndergaard was another good one.  Trading him for Dickey was AA's one true bonehead move.

Well, he also got nothing of significance back in the Halladay trade, got nothing worthwhile in the big Marlins trade, gave away Mike Napoli for nothing and saddled the Jays with the Tulowitzki contract but yeah, just the one boneheaded move.

 

[sickbeast]

I thought AA did fine with prospects.  Wasn't Vladdy Jr. his doing?  Didn't he send Edwin down there to recruit him?

Then why don't the Jays have a lot of good young players? Why did so many of his draft picks not make a mark in the Major Leagues?

Here's the 2010 draft. AA taking Deck McGuire in the first round over Chris Sale and Christian Yelich:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Major_League_Baseball_draft

And on and on. From 2010 until he left the team, Stroman is the only the first round pick that made even the slightest impact on the team, including the multiple picks they blew on guys they couldn't even sign. Frankly, his record sucks.

Syndergaard was another good one.  Trading him for Dickey was AA's one true bonehead move.

Well, he also got nothing of significance back in the Halladay trade, got nothing worthwhile in the big Marlins trade, gave away Mike Napoli for nothing and saddled the Jays with the Tulowitzki contract but yeah, just the one boneheaded move.

Did you even follow the team in 2015?  The Tulo trade turned the team around.  Jose Reyes is an idiot.  You seem to gravitate toward and admire these idiot types.  I can't stand them.