Kadri v.s. Holland

[2badknees]

I think people are getting a little too worked up about Holland.

No kidding. He's far from proven the case he's a legit NHL'er, let alone replacing Kadri.

That said, if Winnipeg was insane enough to move Kane for Kadri, I'd do that in no seconds flat.

 

[moon111]

I saw that Holland was doing better at 5-on-5, better +/-, better on face-offs, with less ice-time.  Think he's about a year younger.  Not sure who he's been on the ice with or against.  And like I said, it's just a small sample of games to judge.  But sometimes you trade a Fuhr to Buffallo and run with the up-and-coming player.

 

[Zee]

We're trading Kadri eh? Great.

 

[TML fan]

Holland is not better than Kadri. Not even close.

 

[Redleaf]

Holland is not better than Kadri. Not even close.

No he's not, but Kadri could fetch more, and after all the lessons (and years) from Leaf coaching staff on how to play a better defensive game, he still hasn't figured it out. He's giving the puck away too often, and more again tonight. Maybe he's fallen in love with himself with all the HBO cameras around? 

 

[moon111]

I honestly think the Leafs are looking at Bolland like he's the next Doug Gilmour.  They very well might be contemplating a Bozak/Bolland 1-2 punch down the middle.  If that's the case, that leaves Kadri in an awkward spot, but a valuable trade commodity for the Leafs. 

 

[Redleaf]

I honestly think the Leafs are looking at Bolland like he's the next Doug Gilmour.  They very well might be contemplating a Bozak/Bolland 1-2 punch down the middle.  If that's the case, that leaves Kadri in an awkward spot, but a valuable trade commodity for the Leafs.

That was an off-the-cuff Don Cherry comparison. I don't think the Leafs believe he's anything close to the player Gilmour was. I really hope they aren't counting on that type of production from Bolland.

 

[moon111]

I honestly think the Leafs are looking at Bolland like he's the next Doug Gilmour.  They very well might be contemplating a Bozak/Bolland 1-2 punch down the middle.  If that's the case, that leaves Kadri in an awkward spot, but a valuable trade commodity for the Leafs.

That was an off-the-cuff Don Cherry comparison. I don't think the Leafs believe he's anything close to the player Gilmour was. I really hope they aren't counting on that type of production from Bolland.

I didn't see Don Cherry say anything.  But I thought Nonis or someone mentioned Bolland as a possible 2nd line center.  A 'b'-grade Gilmour perhaps? 

 

[Bullfrog]

What are you actually saying? The Leafs think he'll be a decent two-way centre with leadership skills?

 

[Redleaf]

What are you actually saying? The Leafs think he'll be a decent two-way centre with leadership skills?

Exactly. I'm sure there's a much more suitable comparison out there than Doug Gilmour.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

I honestly think the Leafs are looking at Bolland like he's the next Doug Gilmour.  They very well might be contemplating a Bozak/Bolland 1-2 punch down the middle.  If that's the case, that leaves Kadri in an awkward spot, but a valuable trade commodity for the Leafs.

This has been one of the biggest problems for the organization...keeping and developing the prospects.  Boyes for Nolan, Steen and Colaiacovo for Stempniak, Rask for Raycroft come to mind as being deals that did nothing to help the Leafs after the trades were made, but actually hurt the team.  Mind you, I am not sure if the Leafs had the personnel or coaching staff within the organization to see that the prospects over time developed into decent hockey players.  I am not sure how Rask would have fared under Wilson's passive defensive system with really bad d-men while Steen was not given enough time to develop and was playing in a system that was hindering his growth and development.

In the case of Kadri, he is surrounded by a decent group of players that if stick together for a couple of seasons will develop into a very talented team that will contend for years.  The flip side is the Leafs trade Kadri or a package involving Kadri for a veteran that will offer the team short term success.  There is a huge flipside to Kadri in his age and the edge that he plays with that needs to be honed and controlled. 

If the Leafs need to trade a player, trade Clarkson or Fraser, not Kadri.  Better to keep the core of the team together and improve the team by drafting well, developing those players and signing decent free agents. 

       

 

[moon111]

I honestly think the Leafs are looking at Bolland like he's the next Doug Gilmour.  They very well might be contemplating a Bozak/Bolland 1-2 punch down the middle.  If that's the case, that leaves Kadri in an awkward spot, but a valuable trade commodity for the Leafs.

This has been one of the biggest problems for the organization...keeping and developing the prospects.  Boyes for Nolan, Steen and Colaiacovo for Stempniak, Rask for Raycroft come to mind as being deals that did nothing to help the Leafs after the trades were made, but actually hurt the team.  Mind you, I am not sure if the Leafs had the personnel or coaching staff within the organization to see that the prospects over time developed into decent hockey players.  I am not sure how Rask would have fared under Wilson's passive defensive system with really bad d-men while Steen was not given enough time to develop and was playing in a system that was hindering his growth and development.

In the case of Kadri, he is surrounded by a decent group of players that if stick together for a couple of seasons will develop into a very talented team that will contend for years.  The flip side is the Leafs trade Kadri or a package involving Kadri for a veteran that will offer the team short term success.  There is a huge flipside to Kadri in his age and the edge that he plays with that needs to be honed and controlled. 

If the Leafs need to trade a player, trade Clarkson or Fraser, not Kadri.  Better to keep the core of the team together and improve the team by drafting well, developing those players and signing decent free agents. 
     

I think the Leafs have also made some trades that went the other way.
Say:
-Potvin for Bryan Berard.
-Beauchemin for Gardiner. (Oh yeah throw in that Lupul dude.)
-Kaberle for Joe Colborne and two draft picks.
-Greg Pateryn + 2nd for Mikhail Grabovski
-Macoun for Ponikarovsky
-And even Clark, Lefebvre, Wilson, +1st for Sundin, Butcher, Warriner, +1st.

I think if you take out all the top 10 draft picks (where Toronto actually rarely performs so lowly to get into that category), most teams development wouldn't look so hot either.

 

[Jalili]

I think the Leafs have also made some trades that went the other way.
Say:
-Potvin for Bryan Berard.
-Beauchemin for Gardiner. (Oh yeah throw in that Lupul dude.)
-Kaberle for Joe Colborne and two draft picks.
-Greg Pateryn + 2nd for Mikhail Grabovski
-Macoun for Ponikarovsky
-And even Clark, Lefebvre, Wilson, +1st for Sundin, Butcher, Warriner, +1st.

I think if you take out all the top 10 draft picks (where Toronto actually rarely performs so lowly to get into that category), most teams development wouldn't look so hot either.

I agree, I don't think the Leafs are more special than other organizations for the bad moves they've made. I think we Leaf fans sometimes make that out to be more than it actually is.

Take Montreal who swindled San Jose a few years back. They traded Craig Rivet for Josh Gorges and a 1st round pick that became Max Pacioretty. Massive overpayment.

On the flip side, the guy Montreal traded for Scott Gomez? Ryan McDonagh. Arguably worse than Rask for Raycroft.

The Kaberle return really fell apart though. Not as big  a fan of that trade as I was the day it happened.

 

[mr grieves]

What are you actually saying? The Leafs think he'll be a decent two-way centre with leadership skills?

Exactly. I'm sure there's a much more suitable comparison out there than Doug Gilmour.

... Bergeron.

 

[wnc096]

The Kaberle return really fell apart though. Not as big  a fan of that trade as I was the day it happened.

In hindsight the fact that they were able to get anything for Kaberle is pretty good....he had a no trade clause and dictated where he went.  Plus his play fell off the face of the earth after he left Toronto

 

[Jalili]

The Kaberle return really fell apart though. Not as big  a fan of that trade as I was the day it happened.

In hindsight the fact that they were able to get anything for Kaberle is pretty good....he had a no trade clause and dictated where he went.  Plus his play fell off the face of the earth after he left Toronto

I don't know, I think the fact that they got what they did proves that he did still have value... But it just so happened that the assets the Leafs got never materialized into what we hoped they would.

 

[maplesyrup]

Well this is interesting;

@RealKyper
In wake of Carlyle rant this morning 2 #NHL clubs have confirmed for me #Leafs have made Kadri available in any trade discussion

Edit: Or not (just read through some of the recent posts here)

 

[Redleaf]

Well this is interesting;

@RealKyper
In wake of Carlyle rant this morning 2 #NHL clubs have confirmed for me #Leafs have made Kadri available in any trade discussion

Edit: Or not (just read through some of the recent posts here)

It's interesting, but not completely surprising, at least not to me. I would love to hear some of the names in the trade proposals being bandied about though.

 

[pmrules]

Well this is interesting;

@RealKyper
In wake of Carlyle rant this morning 2 #NHL clubs have confirmed for me #Leafs have made Kadri available in any trade discussion

Edit: Or not (just read through some of the recent posts here)

What Carlyle rant?  What did he say?

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 3h
Important to note that Kadri, Raymond and Lupul were just reunited last game. Peter Holland had filled that spot previously with success.

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 3h
Raymond has 1 goal in 13 games (6 assists), Lupul has gone pointless in 8 of 10, and Kadri has 4 points in past 12 games.

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 3h
Carlyle said Kadri needs to take another step. "We feel if Peter Holland continues to play he?s going to challenge [Kadri] for that spot."

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 3h
Randy Carlyle feels line of Lupul, Raymond and Kadri has to improve. "In my mind they?re playing to a fraction of where they really can be."