Kessel signs long term extension (8 yrs, 64M, 8M AAV)

[mr grieves]

And even if you do think that's true, isn't it about all you could hope for for the Leafs? If he were looking to leave, what return on a rental would get you much closer to finding core players without flaws?

Well, if that is the way you're looking at things it wouldn't be the return on Kessel exactly(although I think that could still yield several pieces that could develop in that direction) it would also be 8 million cap dollars long term + making the team worse and improving their draft position.

Yeah. Though we're assuming that if Kessel had left Nonis would've started selling off other parts and not put in a bid for Gaborik.

 

[Kin]

Yeah. Though we're assuming that if Kessel had left Nonis would've started selling off other parts and not put in a bid for Gaborik.

Sure, sort of like your "Grabo is cheaper than Bozak because I also wouldn't sign Clarkson" argument.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I was just shaking my head at using being named to the All-Star team as a way to criticize a player.

I do agree, though for what it's worth (and maybe not worth that much), there was a common perception at the time among many that he shouldn't even have been named to the All-Star team, that he was just the token mandatory Leaf.

 

[Kin]

I was just shaking my head at using being named to the All-Star team as a way to criticize a player.

I do agree, though for what it's worth (and maybe not worth that much), there was a common perception at the time among many that he shouldn't even have been named to the All-Star team, that he was just the token mandatory Leaf.

Well, I think that's true and I think that Kessel being chosen last was justifiable at the time but I'm still not clear on how that would be relevant to Cox's point. I think anyone who's watched the Leafs over the last two years knows that Kessel has improved greatly since then so...this is a bad signing because Kessel didn't used to be as good as he is now?

 

[drummond]

Well, I don't know about the rest of you but I'm really looking forward to Kessel retiring as a Leaf and his mumbling, disinterested speech when he's inducted into the HHOF.

LOL
You know, I can picture Kessel exactely that way.

 

[ZBBM]

Sorry to be the party pooper, but I can't be giddy about this.  To my mind he hasn't quite demonstrated that NewPhil is what we really are going to get.  I sure as heck hope it is. There's no question he's improved over the last season or two.  I'm just not convinced that he's worth Crosbyesque money and term.

"Crosbyesque" term? Seriously? Sid is on a 12 year deal. 8 years is hardly "Crosbyesque." It's a max-length deal under the new CBA, and most high-end type players are going to get similar length deals from their teams as they are approaching UFA status. As for the money, if Crosby signed a deal under the new CBA and he didn't feel the need to have his cap hit match his jersey number, he'd easily be getting $10M+.

I mean, what else does the guy have to do to make you realize he's a special talent. Be one of only 2 guys to be in the top 10 in points for each of the last two seasons? Have the 7th highest goal total in the league in the past 4 seasons? The 4th highest point total over the last 2? Seriously. Kessel is one of the top handful of players at his position, and one of the top 10 offensive talents in the league right now. He's paid perfectly appropriately for that, and likely would have received more than $9M per had he hit the open market.

He's a special scoring talent.  That's what he is.  He's not an all-round, slam-dunk, top-of-the-charts, two-way, undisputed-leader ... like a Crosby.  But he's getting elite payment and term like that.  That what the "-esque" comparison conveys, not literal 1-to-1 correspondence.

And he's improved, as I stated.  But he's not elite in any area other than offense.  And I wonder how many on here are REALLY convinced that what we saw in the playoffs is what we'll get, night in and night out, year after year.  I'm not fully convinced yet.

 

[iwas11in67]

Well, I don't know about the rest of you but I'm really looking forward to Kessel retiring as a Leaf and his mumbling, disinterested speech when he's inducted into the HHOF.

Just as long as it's accompanied by a picture of him holding the Stanley Cup over his head, in victory, at least once.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Sorry to be the party pooper, but I can't be giddy about this.  To my mind he hasn't quite demonstrated that NewPhil is what we really are going to get.  I sure as heck hope it is. There's no question he's improved over the last season or two.  I'm just not convinced that he's worth Crosbyesque money and term.

"Crosbyesque" term? Seriously? Sid is on a 12 year deal. 8 years is hardly "Crosbyesque." It's a max-length deal under the new CBA, and most high-end type players are going to get similar length deals from their teams as they are approaching UFA status. As for the money, if Crosby signed a deal under the new CBA and he didn't feel the need to have his cap hit match his jersey number, he'd easily be getting $10M+.

I mean, what else does the guy have to do to make you realize he's a special talent. Be one of only 2 guys to be in the top 10 in points for each of the last two seasons? Have the 7th highest goal total in the league in the past 4 seasons? The 4th highest point total over the last 2? Seriously. Kessel is one of the top handful of players at his position, and one of the top 10 offensive talents in the league right now. He's paid perfectly appropriately for that, and likely would have received more than $9M per had he hit the open market.

He's a special scoring talent.  That's what he is.  He's not an all-round, slam-dunk, top-of-the-charts, two-way, undisputed-leader ... like a Crosby.  But he's getting elite payment and term like that.  That what the "-esque" comparison conveys, not literal 1-to-1 correspondence.

And he's improved, as I stated.  But he's not elite in any area other than offense.  And I wonder how many on here are REALLY convinced that what we saw in the playoffs is what we'll get, night in and night out, year after year.  I'm not fully convinced yet.

He's getting paid like other elite scoring wingers, like I edited my post back on the other page to show: http://hockeyanalysis.com/2013/10/01/phil-kessel-and-his-contract-comparables/

He's not getting Crosby-esque money and term, and you can't accurately compare the two anyways, because they are signed in different financial landscapes.

 

[mr grieves]

Yeah. Though we're assuming that if Kessel had left Nonis would've started selling off other parts and not put in a bid for Gaborik.

Sure, sort of like your "Grabo is cheaper than Bozak because I also wouldn't sign Clarkson" argument.

Guess it was more of a "the team we had was cheaper and not measurably worse" argument.

Anyway, losing Kessel wouldn't ensure the Leafs went from a bubble team to a lottery team. Had that happened, I wonder whether Nonis would've been given the freedom to blow up the rest of the core and actually rebuild.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I was just shaking my head at using being named to the All-Star team as a way to criticize a player.

I do agree, though for what it's worth (and maybe not worth that much), there was a common perception at the time among many that he shouldn't even have been named to the All-Star team, that he was just the token mandatory Leaf.

Well, I think that's true and I think that Kessel being chosen last was justifiable at the time but I'm still not clear on how that would be relevant to Cox's point. I think anyone who's watched the Leafs over the last two years knows that Kessel has improved greatly since then so...this is a bad signing because Kessel didn't used to be as good as he is now?

I think it's relevant to his point, but also that his point is irrelevant.  He was talking up Kessel/Burke/Leafs as being laughingstocks back then, which is arguably true enough, and at the time Kessel's selection to the all-star game (even before the last pick "humiliation") was talked up a lot in the media in a very negative light regarding both Kessel and the team.  But regardless, I think the overall point is irrelevant.  Kessel was a very good and emerging elite player back then, and his contributions to an increasingly good team have been increasing.

His new contract should be (and is) based on his merits as a player, and not on the old perceptions of the bipolar hockey media from a few years ago.  I'm happy with the deal.

 

[LittleHockeyFan]

KesselBear approves of this! Employment for up to 8 years! Yay 81Bear!

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Sorry to be the party pooper, but I can't be giddy about this.  To my mind he hasn't quite demonstrated that NewPhil is what we really are going to get.  I sure as heck hope it is. There's no question he's improved over the last season or two.  I'm just not convinced that he's worth Crosbyesque money and term.

"Crosbyesque" term? Seriously? Sid is on a 12 year deal. 8 years is hardly "Crosbyesque." It's a max-length deal under the new CBA, and most high-end type players are going to get similar length deals from their teams as they are approaching UFA status. As for the money, if Crosby signed a deal under the new CBA and he didn't feel the need to have his cap hit match his jersey number, he'd easily be getting $10M+.

I mean, what else does the guy have to do to make you realize he's a special talent. Be one of only 2 guys to be in the top 10 in points for each of the last two seasons? Have the 7th highest goal total in the league in the past 4 seasons? The 4th highest point total over the last 2? Seriously. Kessel is one of the top handful of players at his position, and one of the top 10 offensive talents in the league right now. He's paid perfectly appropriately for that, and likely would have received more than $9M per had he hit the open market.

Not only that, Kessel has put up these impressive numbers while playing without an elite playmaking C - he's effectively become both the sniper and the playmaker on the line.  Hopefully JVR being there will help keep him playing at this level, or even better while JVR hits his prime.

 

[Zee]

Well, I don't know about the rest of you but I'm really looking forward to Kessel retiring as a Leaf and his mumbling, disinterested speech when he's inducted into the HHOF.

Just as long as it's accompanied by a picture of him holding the Stanley Cup over his head, in victory, at least once.

"Phil, do have fond memories of that Stanley Cup win with the Leafs?"

"Yeah, that was great"

 

[Kin]

Anyway, losing Kessel wouldn't ensure the Leafs went from a bubble team to a lottery team.

That was my point. It's only true if other things are true as well.

 

[ZBBM]

Sorry to be the party pooper, but I can't be giddy about this.  To my mind he hasn't quite demonstrated that NewPhil is what we really are going to get.  I sure as heck hope it is. There's no question he's improved over the last season or two.  I'm just not convinced that he's worth Crosbyesque elitemoney and term.

"Crosbyesque" term? Seriously? Sid is on a 12 year deal. 8 years is hardly "Crosbyesque." It's a max-length deal under the new CBA, and most high-end type players are going to get similar length deals from their teams as they are approaching UFA status. As for the money, if Crosby signed a deal under the new CBA and he didn't feel the need to have his cap hit match his jersey number, he'd easily be getting $10M+.

I mean, what else does the guy have to do to make you realize he's a special talent. Be one of only 2 guys to be in the top 10 in points for each of the last two seasons? Have the 7th highest goal total in the league in the past 4 seasons? The 4th highest point total over the last 2? Seriously. Kessel is one of the top handful of players at his position, and one of the top 10 offensive talents in the league right now. He's paid perfectly appropriately for that, and likely would have received more than $9M per had he hit the open market.

He's a special scoring talent.  That's what he is.  He's not an all-round, slam-dunk, top-of-the-charts, two-way, undisputed-leader ... like a Crosby.  But he's getting elite payment and term like that.  That what the "-esque" comparison conveys, not literal 1-to-1 correspondence.

And he's improved, as I stated.  But he's not elite in any area other than offense.  And I wonder how many on here are REALLY convinced that what we saw in the playoffs is what we'll get, night in and night out, year after year.  I'm not fully convinced yet.

He's getting paid like other elite scoring wingers, like I edited my post back on the other page to show: http://hockeyanalysis.com/2013/10/01/phil-kessel-and-his-contract-comparables/

He's not getting Crosby-esque money and term, and you can't accurately compare the two anyways, because they are signed in different financial landscapes.

Sigh.  I knew I should have just said "elite."  So much for trying to make posts more readable.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Sorry to be the party pooper, but I can't be giddy about this.  To my mind he hasn't quite demonstrated that NewPhil is what we really are going to get.  I sure as heck hope it is. There's no question he's improved over the last season or two.  I'm just not convinced that he's worth Crosbyesque elitemoney and term.

"Crosbyesque" term? Seriously? Sid is on a 12 year deal. 8 years is hardly "Crosbyesque." It's a max-length deal under the new CBA, and most high-end type players are going to get similar length deals from their teams as they are approaching UFA status. As for the money, if Crosby signed a deal under the new CBA and he didn't feel the need to have his cap hit match his jersey number, he'd easily be getting $10M+.

I mean, what else does the guy have to do to make you realize he's a special talent. Be one of only 2 guys to be in the top 10 in points for each of the last two seasons? Have the 7th highest goal total in the league in the past 4 seasons? The 4th highest point total over the last 2? Seriously. Kessel is one of the top handful of players at his position, and one of the top 10 offensive talents in the league right now. He's paid perfectly appropriately for that, and likely would have received more than $9M per had he hit the open market.

He's a special scoring talent.  That's what he is.  He's not an all-round, slam-dunk, top-of-the-charts, two-way, undisputed-leader ... like a Crosby.  But he's getting elite payment and term like that.  That what the "-esque" comparison conveys, not literal 1-to-1 correspondence.

And he's improved, as I stated.  But he's not elite in any area other than offense.  And I wonder how many on here are REALLY convinced that what we saw in the playoffs is what we'll get, night in and night out, year after year.  I'm not fully convinced yet.

He's getting paid like other elite scoring wingers, like I edited my post back on the other page to show: http://hockeyanalysis.com/2013/10/01/phil-kessel-and-his-contract-comparables/

He's not getting Crosby-esque money and term, and you can't accurately compare the two anyways, because they are signed in different financial landscapes.

Sigh.  I knew I should have just said "elite."  So much for trying to make posts more readable.

Well whether you said Crosbyesque or elite, I think the same replies would have followed.

 

[ZBBM]

Sorry to be the party pooper, but I can't be giddy about this.  To my mind he hasn't quite demonstrated that NewPhil is what we really are going to get.  I sure as heck hope it is. There's no question he's improved over the last season or two.  I'm just not convinced that he's worth Crosbyesque elitemoney and term.

"Crosbyesque" term? Seriously? Sid is on a 12 year deal. 8 years is hardly "Crosbyesque." It's a max-length deal under the new CBA, and most high-end type players are going to get similar length deals from their teams as they are approaching UFA status. As for the money, if Crosby signed a deal under the new CBA and he didn't feel the need to have his cap hit match his jersey number, he'd easily be getting $10M+.

I mean, what else does the guy have to do to make you realize he's a special talent. Be one of only 2 guys to be in the top 10 in points for each of the last two seasons? Have the 7th highest goal total in the league in the past 4 seasons? The 4th highest point total over the last 2? Seriously. Kessel is one of the top handful of players at his position, and one of the top 10 offensive talents in the league right now. He's paid perfectly appropriately for that, and likely would have received more than $9M per had he hit the open market.

He's a special scoring talent.  That's what he is.  He's not an all-round, slam-dunk, top-of-the-charts, two-way, undisputed-leader ... like a Crosby.  But he's getting elite payment and term like that.  That what the "-esque" comparison conveys, not literal 1-to-1 correspondence.

And he's improved, as I stated.  But he's not elite in any area other than offense.  And I wonder how many on here are REALLY convinced that what we saw in the playoffs is what we'll get, night in and night out, year after year.  I'm not fully convinced yet.

He's getting paid like other elite scoring wingers, like I edited my post back on the other page to show: http://hockeyanalysis.com/2013/10/01/phil-kessel-and-his-contract-comparables/

He's not getting Crosby-esque money and term, and you can't accurately compare the two anyways, because they are signed in different financial landscapes.

Sigh.  I knew I should have just said "elite."  So much for trying to make posts more readable.

Well whether you said Crosbyesque or elite, I think the same replies would have followed.

8/8 is elite money and term.  He's not well-rounded enough to deserve quite that much.  Also concerned that too much cap will be tied up in two players who really don't rise to the level of a leader of a contender.  That's it in a nutshell.

 

[Kin]

8/8 is elite money and term.

I don't think that's true or, at least, I don't think that's going to be true going forward. We saw Getzlaf/Perry both sign richer deals and while they're both good players, neither guy would probably make anyone's list of the top 10 players in the league(They were #15 and #24 on TSN's list of top 50 in the league and I think that's generous to both).

You're too tied up in comparing this deal, signed under the new CBA to older ones. I think the reality going forward is that guys who are of Kessel's ability/talent are going to get these sorts of deals when they're pending UFA's. The next time someone who's truly elite and in a position to sign a deal like this I think they'll get considerably more.

 

[Peter D.]

Well, I don't know about the rest of you but I'm really looking forward to Kessel retiring as a Leaf and his mumbling, disinterested speech when he's inducted into the HHOF.

It'll be interesting to see where he ends up on the Leafs' all-time scoring lists.  Sundin's 420 goals and 987 points may be just out of Kessel's reach, but ending up at least second is completely possible.

 

[ZBBM]

8/8 is elite money and term.

I don't think that's true or, at least, I don't think that's going to be true going forward. We saw Getzlaf/Perry both sign richer deals and while they're both good players, neither guy would probably make anyone's list of the top 10 players in the league(They were #15 and #24 on TSN's list of top 50 in the league and I think that's generous to both).

You're too tied up in comparing this deal, signed under the new CBA to older ones. I think the reality going forward is that guys who are of Kessel's ability/talent are going to get these sorts of deals when they're pending UFA's. The next time someone who's truly elite and in a position to sign a deal like this I think they'll get considerably more.

I guess we'll have to see re the dough.  That still leaves the concern of whether we'll have too much invested in two players, neither of whom is an unassailable cornerstone of a franchise.  If they dial back Phaneuf's next contract (assuming he's re-signed), then paying Kessel boatloads to score goals becomes easier to take.