Kyle Dubas is JFJ 2.0 - Discuss

[93forever]

There is no way anyone should be comparing Dubas to JFJ.  Rask would have looked sweet with a Leafs jersey, and could have helped the Leafs get into the playoffs at least once.  Where is Raycroft today?  How about trading for Toskala?  Signing Jeff O'Neill, Eric Lindros, Jason Alison - players that were long past their prime?  Signing Jason Blake after having only 1 season of higher production?  Trading away a first round pick in a package to get Leetch?  I bring those up, because I cannot recall any decent moves JFJ made to help improve the Leafs.  Conversely, Dubas is at least trying to create some salary cap space to re-sign Marner and improved the d-line with Barrie and Harpur, while getting rid of Zeitzev.  Kadri was a liability in the playoffs, but Brown will be missed.  His goal helped the Leafs get into the playoffs a few years ago.  So no, there is no comparison between the two. 

 

[Highlander]

There is no way anyone should be comparing Dubas to JFJ.  Rask would have looked sweet with a Leafs jersey, and could have helped the Leafs get into the playoffs at least once.  Where is Raycroft today?  How about trading for Toskala?  Signing Jeff O'Neill, Eric Lindros, Jason Alison - players that were long past their prime?  Signing Jason Blake after having only 1 season of higher production?  Trading away a first round pick in a package to get Leetch?  I bring those up, because I cannot recall any decent moves JFJ made to help improve the Leafs.  Conversely, Dubas is at least trying to create some salary cap space to re-sign Marner and improved the d-line with Barrie and Harpur, while getting rid of Zeitzev.  Kadri was a liability in the playoffs, but Brown will be missed.  His goal helped the Leafs get into the playoffs a few years ago.  So no, there is no comparison between the two.

Remember that JFJ had to answer a lot of people with opinions on what to do. He had no autonomy. Dubas has the wheel and can press the pedal down as far as he can and Dad doesn't give him the car keys.

 

[lamajama]

This whole topic is just silly.

 

[KW Sluggo]

Ahem,
https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/opinion/2019/10/11/mike-babcock-may-be-set-up-for-a-fall-after-kyle-dubas-uninspiring-summer.html

 

[Bates]

Ahem,
https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/opinion/2019/10/11/mike-babcock-may-be-set-up-for-a-fall-after-kyle-dubas-uninspiring-summer.html

Read Cox's Twitter posts for the last few months and then try to read anything he writes seriously. Click bait could be his new name.

 

[ZBBM]

He makes some valid points -- quite a few -- but the whole thing is undercut by the stuff about Dubas submarining Babcock.

 

[Bender]

Ahem,
https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/opinion/2019/10/11/mike-babcock-may-be-set-up-for-a-fall-after-kyle-dubas-uninspiring-summer.html

Way to dredge up a dead thread.

 

[Pick]

The Cox article is so full of questionable opinions but the main point is valid: Babcock will pay the price if Leafs underachieve this year.

I disagree, however, with the notion that Dubas' focus on the cap in the offseason was a mistake. It was unavoidable.

It's far too soon to adequately assess this team after only 5 games, so all criticisms at this point should be on hold. If I criticize Dubas, it's for what he stated in the past, his philosophy regarding grit and toughness.

I don't believe adding a Colton Orr type player will make Leafs tougher or better, but hockey is a contact sport, so the physical aspect of the game shouldn't be undermined if your goal is to win 4 playoff series in 2020.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Heh, funny thread, if not just to read the responses from folks who don't understand they're being trolled.

Aaanyway, yeah, maybe he is the new JFJ. or maybe he's figured out the new NHL. I'm pretty sure he'll get more than 4 games by mlse to prove it one way or another. Except in the media.

 

[Highlander]

Cox is getting downright depressing. There are two sides to every coin Damien.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Moved some stuff to the Donald thread for the people who aren't interested in discussing politics here. Let's keep this thread on the topic of *checks notes*.... how Dubas is JFJ jesus christ what are we doing here.

 

[Zee]

Moved some stuff to the Donald thread for the people who aren't interested in discussing politics here. Let's keep this thread on the topic of *checks notes*.... how Dubas is JFJ jesus christ what are we doing here.

Lol perfect summation of this thread

 

[Highlander]

Moved some stuff to the Donald thread for the people who aren't interested in discussing politics here. Let's keep this thread on the topic of *checks notes*.... how Dubas is JFJ jesus christ what are we doing here.

Come on now, he was just a dancing Donnie and he had Hilary and Obama and Bernie all doing the Jiggy with him.  That was a love dance!!  However I do some times recall that JFJ never claimed to be JC.  But Dubas is definitely not John F J.  I am starting to feel a Monty Python sketch coming on here.

 

[KW Sluggo]

Brand new blueline, same old problems.

I wish Tyson Barrie the best of luck getting $6M a year on a multi year deal from anyone other than Dubas.

We were not this bad with Gardiner, Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown and Kadri.

While Dubas and Babcock play out their obvious snit and Spezza gets a million for nothing as a pawn in the soap opera, this team is unable to beat anyone but those well below them in talent.

 

[Bender]

Brand new blueline, same old problems.

I wish Tyson Barrie the best of luck getting $6M a year on a multi year deal from anyone other than Dubas.

We were not this bad with Gardiner, Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown and Kadri.

While Dubas and Babcock play out their obvious snit and Spezza gets a million for nothing as a pawn in the soap opera, this team is unable to beat anyone but those well below them in talent.

We don't have 3 main pieces. Team was playing .500 hockey after Jan. Don't give a shit about a strong start if it means a lacklustre finish. Let's see where this season goes before prognosticating.

 

[Zee]

Brand new blueline, same old problems.

I wish Tyson Barrie the best of luck getting $6M a year on a multi year deal from anyone other than Dubas.

We were not this bad with Gardiner, Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown and Kadri.

While Dubas and Babcock play out their obvious snit and Spezza gets a million for nothing as a pawn in the soap opera, this team is unable to beat anyone but those well below them in talent.

We don't have 3 main pieces. Team was playing .500 hockey after Jan. Don't give a shit about a strong start if it means a lacklustre finish. Let's see where this season goes before prognosticating.

Yeah we might want to wait until the season plays out a bit more.  Started last season 20-8 and went downhill after that.  I'd rather finish strong than start strong.  Lots of time left.

 

[Chris]

In the calendar year (2019) the Leafs have played at a pace that wouldn't make the playoffs. Changed out a bunch of players and getting the same results, overall team play doesn't look any better. Getting back their 3 roster players will help, but there will probably be other injuries at some point and they'll just have to figure out how to get past them.

I try to keep in mind that St Louis had a horrible first half of last year and of course won the Cup, so trying to not get too worried. But I'm not seeing much evidence of the expected year-to-year improvement one would expect from the young core. That is concerning.

 

[ZBBM]

The silly thread title has led to a lot of nonproductive discussion.  There is simply no comparison between Dubas (see under Tavares) and JFJ (see under Pogge/Rask).  And much more evidence besides which I won't bother with.

However...

... There is room for reasoned discussion about whether Dubas's possess-to-success strategy is getting the results we need.  Other teams are targeting Matthews, and as the other night showed the only person who stood up for Matthews was ... Matthews.  While I'm not suggesting a return to goonery, I do think it's reasonable to wonder whether it's a mistake to have no physical presence on the team at all.

As Chris just pointed out, the team has not been good enough all of CY19.

 

[sickbeast]

In the calendar year (2019) the Leafs have played at a pace that wouldn't make the playoffs. Changed out a bunch of players and getting the same results, overall team play doesn't look any better. Getting back their 3 roster players will help, but there will probably be other injuries at some point and they'll just have to figure out how to get past them.

I try to keep in mind that St Louis had a horrible first half of last year and of course won the Cup, so trying to not get too worried. But I'm not seeing much evidence of the expected year-to-year improvement one would expect from the young core. That is concerning.

Nylander is playing *much* better this year and Matthews started the season off on fire.  Marner has had a slow start but I think the whole contract thing affected him.  It seems so common in pro sports that the athlete gets the big contract and then goes into a slump.  Not entirely sure why.

As for the rest of the young guys I haven't been following them closely enough to comment.  I personally didn't quite understand sending Sandin down when he clearly earned a spot on the team.  He looked great to me.  The big issue with the team could be their complete lack of salary cap flexibility which ties the hands of management in terms of getting the best team they can on the ice every day.  It has also affected the whole backup goalie thing which is a complete mess.

Dubas may have to trade Ceci and an asset/prospect/pick to fix that problem.  I have mixed feelings on that, though.

I think the real error in Dubas' judgement has been making a run at it twice in a row the past two years when he could have gotten a king's ransom for expiring contract players at both trade deadlines (JVR 2 years ago and Gardiner last season).  It would have given the team so much more ammunition to make a run at things now and for the next several years.

Now things are looking a bit murky.  Apparently next season the Leafs will have a fair bit more cap space just due to how the current contracts all work out.  We shall see.  This season just may not be the year.  It could still pan out if Dubas is able to be shrewd about it.  I just don't trust his judgement in terms of whether we should be buyers or sellers at the trade deadline.  I could see him making a run at things this year which could turn out to be foolish yet again.  And if he makes a run at it this year, the cupboard will be pretty bare going forward in terms of our picks and prospects that are expendable.

 

[Chris]

In the calendar year (2019) the Leafs have played at a pace that wouldn't make the playoffs. Changed out a bunch of players and getting the same results, overall team play doesn't look any better. Getting back their 3 roster players will help, but there will probably be other injuries at some point and they'll just have to figure out how to get past them.

I try to keep in mind that St Louis had a horrible first half of last year and of course won the Cup, so trying to not get too worried. But I'm not seeing much evidence of the expected year-to-year improvement one would expect from the young core. That is concerning.

Nylander is playing *much* better this year and Matthews started the season off on fire.  Marner has had a slow start but I think the whole contract thing affected him.  It seems so common in pro sports that the athlete gets the big contract and then goes into a slump.  Not entirely sure why.

As for the rest of the young guys I haven't been following them closely enough to comment.  I personally didn't quite understand sending Sandin down when he clearly earned a spot on the team.  He looked great to me.  The big issue with the team could be their complete lack of salary cap flexibility which ties the hands of management in terms of getting the best team they can on the ice every day.  It has also affected the whole backup goalie thing which is a complete mess.

Dubas may have to trade Ceci and an asset/prospect/pick to fix that problem.  I have mixed feelings on that, though.

I think the real error in Dubas' judgement has been making a run at it twice in a row the past two years when he could have gotten a king's ransom for expiring contract players at both trade deadlines (JVR 2 years ago and Gardiner last season).  It would have given the team so much more ammunition to make a run at things now and for the next several years.

Now things are looking a bit murky.  Apparently next season the Leafs will have a fair bit more cap space just due to how the current contracts all work out.  We shall see.  This season just may not be the year.  It could still pan out if Dubas is able to be shrewd about it.  I just don't trust his judgement in terms of whether we should be buyers or sellers at the trade deadline.  I could see him making a run at things this year which could turn out to be foolish yet again.  And if he makes a run at it this year, the cupboard will be pretty bare going forward in terms of our picks and prospects that are expendable.

Yeah, they probably would have been better off getting something for guys like JVR (not so much Gardiner IMO) and NOT spending picks on 4th line centers before the team was really ready. And next year there will be more cap space because Barrie, Muzzin and Ceci come off the books. Problem is, they all have to be replaced and if we expect guys like Sandin and Lily to step right in and play like seasoned pros, I think we'll be in for a rude awakening, regardless of how good Sandin looked at the start of the season. Plus Mikheyev is on a one year deal, right? So if we want to keep him and he keeps performing like he is, his cost will go up.

Overpaying by a few hundred thousand or a million $ on each of the big contracts...yeah, that couldn't possibly cause any problems now could it?