Kyle Dubas not returning as GM

[mr grieves]

Not giving autonomy to the future GM is going to cost us chances at the very best candidates. And I mean, it already has.

Do we know if that set up is down to ownership (meddling), Shanahan (micro-managing), or Dubas (being a first-time GM and not fully trusted)? If they want a good candidate with lots of front-office experience, it had better be option 3. Hard to see Doug Armstrong or Eric Tulsky exploring release options in their contracts to come into a situation that a 37 year old with meager playoff success couldn?t stand.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Not giving autonomy to the future GM is going to cost us chances at the very best candidates. And I mean, it already has.

Do we know if that set up is down to ownership (meddling), Shanahan (micro-managing), or Dubas (being a first-time GM and not fully trusted)? If they want a good candidate with lots of front-office experience, it had better be option 3. Hard to see Doug Armstrong or Eric Tulsky exploring release options in their contracts to come into a situation that a 37 year old with meager playoff success couldn?t stand.

I believe the contract outlined by Dubas' agent, who I read is the same for Matthews, wanted more money and fill autonomy. We know MLSE has no issues with money so it has to come down to a power struggle and Shanny wasn't giving up any.
I think it was I'm coming back but I want xx dollars and full autonomy because having to go through Shanny and the board for every move would really suck. If you believe in me give me the reigns.
And this Shanny garbage about I had to take it seriously after Monday's presser is a load. They talked Wednesday and Dubas gave him an answer on Thursday. 3 days is totally understandable. So all is good until the contract demands but I didn't like his email. Shanny def tried to put all of this on Dubas so I hope one day we get the other side of the equation.
I'll go back to it again. Spezza leaving a cushy job for the team he loves on the day before the announcement that Kyle isn't coming back isn't coincidence.

Hey for all we know maybe Pitt or someone offered him a position and he took that to Shanny. 

 

[dappleganger]

As GM, your name is on the line with the moves you make. If you're being hamstrung it's not really a tenable position. I would have done exactly what Dubas did. C'est la vie.

If I were in Dubas position I'd be really excited to get an opportunity to take over in Anaheim or Arizona.

 

[dappleganger]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

Really would love some context to this. What moves were blocked?

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/sasky/status/1659797183846297602

Read the whole thread

 

[herman]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

Really would love some context to this. What moves were blocked?

I would love that too, but Dubas isn?t likely to share. I will say it?s pretty rich for the guy who said he had been in the room for those discussions before when it was Lou/Hunter/Dubas and found that Dubas was right more often than not, to then go about exerting Presidential weight on those GM decisions for someone else to wear the consequences.

 

[herman]

I believe the contract outlined by Dubas' agent, who I read is the same for Matthews, wanted more money and fill autonomy. We know MLSE has no issues with money so it has to come down to a power struggle and Shanny wasn't giving up any.
I think it was I'm coming back but I want xx dollars and full autonomy because having to go through Shanny and the board for every move would really suck. If you believe in me give me the reigns.
And this Shanny garbage about I had to take it seriously after Monday's presser is a load. They talked Wednesday and Dubas gave him an answer on Thursday. 3 days is totally understandable. So all is good until the contract demands but I didn't like his email. Shanny def tried to put all of this on Dubas so I hope one day we get the other side of the equation.
I'll go back to it again. Spezza leaving a cushy job for the team he loves on the day before the announcement that Kyle isn't coming back isn't coincidence.

Hey for all we know maybe Pitt or someone offered him a position and he took that to Shanny.

Dubas has the same agency as Matthews, not the same agent.

We are going to see people take sides and either move on naturally or take the severance, same as when Lou moved on. I agree Spezza is a key canary to how much we should take Friday?s message at face value.

 

[Peter D.]

I thought the days of ownership/president meddling in the day-to-day operations of the team were a thing of the past.  Dubas not having full autonomy to make moves is not a good sign.  Also signals that Shanahan was starting to not trust Dubas in the job, which is fair to an extent.  If that was the case, wish he let him go earlier then.

 

[rdowdall]

Dubas is a new school leader that cares about people, and believes that by focusing on the people that are a part of your team, and enabling them, that you will reach success.  The how you achieve success matters more than if you achieve success.  Some times that doesn't fly in large organizations that just want results.

I do think that given his success at the AHL level, with winning the cup there, that if Dubas had a vision on how he wanted to construct this team, and Shanahan influenced that, then that might have played a part in the Leafs success in the playoffs. 

 

[dappleganger]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

Really would love some context to this. What moves were blocked?

I would love that too, but Dubas isn?t likely to share. I will say it?s pretty rich for the guy who said he had been in the room for those discussions before when it was Lou/Hunter/Dubas and found that Dubas was right more often than not, to then go about exerting Presidential weight on those GM decisions for someone else to wear the consequences.

What is says to me is that Shanahan is responsible for all the non-success this team has had as he was the one with final say on roster moves and exerted that force.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I believe the contract outlined by Dubas' agent, who I read is the same for Matthews, wanted more money and fill autonomy. We know MLSE has no issues with money so it has to come down to a power struggle and Shanny wasn't giving up any.
I think it was I'm coming back but I want xx dollars and full autonomy because having to go through Shanny and the board for every move would really suck. If you believe in me give me the reigns.
And this Shanny garbage about I had to take it seriously after Monday's presser is a load. They talked Wednesday and Dubas gave him an answer on Thursday. 3 days is totally understandable. So all is good until the contract demands but I didn't like his email. Shanny def tried to put all of this on Dubas so I hope one day we get the other side of the equation.
I'll go back to it again. Spezza leaving a cushy job for the team he loves on the day before the announcement that Kyle isn't coming back isn't coincidence.

Hey for all we know maybe Pitt or someone offered him a position and he took that to Shanny.

Dubas has the same agency as Matthews, not the same agent.

We are going to see people take sides and either move on naturally or take the severance, same as when Lou moved on. I agree Spezza is a key canary to how much we should take Friday?s message at face value.

It's what I clearly didn't clarify on the agency front.
Spezza....def

 

[L K]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

This is flipping damning if that is the case.  If Shanahan has been dictating moves/blocking moves this organization is screwed.  This whole situation blows. 

 

[Deebo]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

"He declined to comment when contacted by The Athletic on Friday"

He didn't comment, he just told them exactly what to write.

 

[Guilt Trip]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

This is flipping damning if that is the case.  If Shanahan has been dictating moves/blocking moves this organization is screwed.  This whole situation blows. 

I think this is exactly what's going on.

 

[Zee]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

This is flipping damning if that is the case.  If Shanahan has been dictating moves/blocking moves this organization is screwed.  This whole situation blows. 

I think this is exactly what's going on.

Shanahan should have just named himself GM but of course that would involve taking the direct heat when moves don't work out.  Better to hide in the shadows and block moves and then blame the other guy.

 

[rdowdall]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

This is flipping damning if that is the case.  If Shanahan has been dictating moves/blocking moves this organization is screwed.  This whole situation blows. 

I think this is exactly what's going on.

Shanahan should have just named himself GM but of course that would involve taking the direct heat when moves don't work out.  Better to hide in the shadows and block moves and then blame the other guy.

One of the things though is that all the Toronto sports teams have set it up this way, and I think it's something that the teams that have money will do. 

Raptors have Webster and Ujiri, and the Blue Jays have Shapiro and Atkins.  The theory that I have heard is that you don't know who to really blame for the direction of the team, so you deflect criticism for moves that are suspect because you don't know who really made the decision. 

In the Leafs situation though, they probably didn't manage this part of that relationship properly, because the finger was squarely pointed at Dubas for the last year and that was probably in part because of his contract.  Or maybe it's because the Leafs are just more of a focal point in Toronto than the Raptors or Blue Jays, but it seems this particular dual headed monster approach failed. 

 

[mr grieves]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

This is flipping damning if that is the case.  If Shanahan has been dictating moves/blocking moves this organization is screwed.  This whole situation blows. 

I?d want to know what moves we?re talking about here. Foligno over Hall? McCabe over Orlov? Murray instead of a cheaper tandem? There aren?t many things that would?ve really changed their chances in the playoffs outside of moving one of the core, and I doubt Dubas was pretending that he was as committed to them as he was until 2 weeks ago.

 

[Bender]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

"He declined to comment when contacted by The Athletic on Friday"

He didn't comment, he just told them exactly what to write.

It reads as a super weird hypothetical that moves Shanny nixed would've made the team better but the moves Shanny approved or suggested made the team worse.

 

[Bender]

Not giving autonomy to the future GM is going to cost us chances at the very best candidates. And I mean, it already has.

I agree, but already has meaning Dubas? It'll be hard to see a power struggle like this if Lou was in charge. I think the team needs an experienced GM who they feel like they don't have to watch so closely.

 

[L K]

https://theathletic.com/4536147/2023/05/20/maple-leafs-kyle-dubas-brendan-shanahan/

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn?t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren?t made could have improved the Leafs? ability to advance further in the playoffs.

This is flipping damning if that is the case.  If Shanahan has been dictating moves/blocking moves this organization is screwed.  This whole situation blows. 

I?d want to know what moves we?re talking about here. Foligno over Hall? McCabe over Orlov? Murray instead of a cheaper tandem? There aren?t many things that would?ve really changed their chances in the playoffs outside of moving one of the core, and I doubt Dubas was pretending that he was as committed to them as he was until 2 weeks ago.

The thing is it could be moves that we just don't know about.  We know the trades that actually happened but there can be dozens of trades that start to be discussed but fall through, or free agents that get discussed but don't get to a formal contract offer.

Unless we get a tell all interview years from now I doubt we get any of that detail.  I also don't expect to see Dubas really leaking that stuff at this point with any level of detail.  After watching Shanahan's press conference, I'm less convinced that he wouldn't throw out details but I don't expect that either.

I think the Amazon documentary showed a bit of that window into the Foligno trade and getting permission to make a move although who knows what else was done.  I just don't like the idea of a hamstrung GM and I feel like we are about to go back to an old retread GM for the sake of "experience"