Leafs Bottom 6/Depth Chart

[bustaheims]

So who is making who better?  I'd wager that the better money is on Phil making Tyler better, not vice versa.

Yup. The only real argument I buy for keeping Bozak on the 1st line and Kadri on the 2nd is to provide depth to the offence. I'm not convinced any increase in production that Kadri could provide to the 1st line wouldn't be matched or outweighed by a drop off in production by the 2nd line without him.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

So who is making who better?  I'd wager that the better money is on Phil making Tyler better, not vice versa.

Yup. The only real argument I buy for keeping Bozak on the 1st line and Kadri on the 2nd is to provide depth to the offence. I'm not convinced any increase in production that Kadri could provide to the 1st line wouldn't be matched or outweighed by a drop off in production by the 2nd line without him.

I can buy that - in the context of the article I'm not thinking it's particularly fair to Kadri and I hope he is the one here longer.

Hopefully another C emerges to help make it more of a moot point.

 

[ZBBM]

So who is making who better?  I'd wager that the better money is on Phil making Tyler better, not vice versa.

Yup. The only real argument I buy for keeping Bozak on the 1st line and Kadri on the 2nd is to provide depth to the offence. I'm not convinced any increase in production that Kadri could provide to the 1st line wouldn't be matched or outweighed by a drop off in production by the 2nd line without him.

I can buy that - in the context of the article I'm not thinking it's particularly fair to Kadri and I hope he is the one here longer.

Hopefully another C emerges to help make it more of a moot point.

The underlying point, I guess, is that our Top 6 has too many flaws to make for a team that's a solid bet for the playoffs, let alone a real contender.

 

[Kin]

So who is making who better?  I'd wager that the better money is on Phil making Tyler better, not vice versa.

Yup. The only real argument I buy for keeping Bozak on the 1st line and Kadri on the 2nd is to provide depth to the offence. I'm not convinced any increase in production that Kadri could provide to the 1st line wouldn't be matched or outweighed by a drop off in production by the 2nd line without him.

I don't know if that's necessarily the case. If the argument is that there isn't a statistically significant sample to judge Kadri with Kessel yet then there likewise isn't really a statistically significant sample on which to judge Bozak without Kessel.

 

[freer]

So who is making who better?  I'd wager that the better money is on Phil making Tyler better, not vice versa.

Yup. The only real argument I buy for keeping Bozak on the 1st line and Kadri on the 2nd is to provide depth to the offence. I'm not convinced any increase in production that Kadri could provide to the 1st line wouldn't be matched or outweighed by a drop off in production by the 2nd line without him.

I don't know if that's necessarily the case. If the argument is that there isn't a statistically significant sample to judge Kadri with Kessel yet then there likewise isn't really a statistically significant sample on which to judge Bozak without Kessel.

I hate to get in the middle of this debate again, but IMO Kadri had 24 games to prove he was better then Bozak and he did not prove it. If 20 games is not enough time to prove you deserve to be in that position then there is a problem. If a person cant do a job with in 20 days, he or she would be fired or removed from that job or position. Just saying.

 

[louisstamos]

So who is making who better?  I'd wager that the better money is on Phil making Tyler better, not vice versa.

Yup. The only real argument I buy for keeping Bozak on the 1st line and Kadri on the 2nd is to provide depth to the offence. I'm not convinced any increase in production that Kadri could provide to the 1st line wouldn't be matched or outweighed by a drop off in production by the 2nd line without him.

I don't know if that's necessarily the case. If the argument is that there isn't a statistically significant sample to judge Kadri with Kessel yet then there likewise isn't really a statistically significant sample on which to judge Bozak without Kessel.

I hate to get in the middle of this debate again, but IMO Kadri had 24 games to prove he was better then Bozak and he did not prove it. If 20 games is not enough time to prove you deserve to be in that position then there is a problem. If a person cant do a job with in 20 days, he or she would be fired or removed from that job or position. Just saying.

While that's a fair assessment (I remember Kadri starting off strong before tapering off on the top line before Bozak came back) - keep in mind that he's still young and nowhere near his peak/prime yet.  Just because he couldn't get the job done last year doesn't mean that he won't be able to do it this year, or next year.

 

[freer]

So who is making who better?  I'd wager that the better money is on Phil making Tyler better, not vice versa.

Yup. The only real argument I buy for keeping Bozak on the 1st line and Kadri on the 2nd is to provide depth to the offence. I'm not convinced any increase in production that Kadri could provide to the 1st line wouldn't be matched or outweighed by a drop off in production by the 2nd line without him.

I don't know if that's necessarily the case. If the argument is that there isn't a statistically significant sample to judge Kadri with Kessel yet then there likewise isn't really a statistically significant sample on which to judge Bozak without Kessel.

I hate to get in the middle of this debate again, but IMO Kadri had 24 games to prove he was better then Bozak and he did not prove it. If 20 games is not enough time to prove you deserve to be in that position then there is a problem. If a person cant do a job with in 20 days, he or she would be fired or removed from that job or position. Just saying.

While that's a fair assessment (I remember Kadri starting off strong before tapering off on the top line before Bozak came back) - keep in mind that he's still young and nowhere near his peak/prime yet.  Just because he couldn't get the job done last year doesn't mean that he won't be able to do it this year, or next year.

I agree with you statement. He need to be more consistant to take the job, which will probably happen as he grows up. That being said, do you think there is a chance for Reimer to get his #1 job back?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I hate to get in the middle of this debate again, but IMO Kadri had 24 games to prove he was better then Bozak and he did not prove it. If 20 games is not enough time to prove you deserve to be in that position then there is a problem. If a person cant do a job with in 20 days, he or she would be fired or removed from that job or position. Just saying.

What?  No it's not, and NHL isn't like your regular, everyday job.

Bozak was the #1 C at the start of the 2010 season and started the season with 11 points in 30 games - a 30 point pace through more than 1/3 of the season.  As an older player than Kadri too.

So Bozak should have been removed by now right?  Or can he do the job now?  Or does only Kadri get the 20 games or bust shaft?

 

[freer]

I hate to get in the middle of this debate again, but IMO Kadri had 24 games to prove he was better then Bozak and he did not prove it. If 20 games is not enough time to prove you deserve to be in that position then there is a problem. If a person cant do a job with in 20 days, he or she would be fired or removed from that job or position. Just saying.

What?  No it's not, and NHL isn't like your regular, everyday job.

Bozak was the #1 C at the start of the 2010 season and started the season with 11 points in 30 games - a 30 point pace through more than 1/3 of the season.  As an older player than Kadri too.

So Bozak should have been removed by now right?  Or can he do the job now?  Or does only Kadri get the 20 games or bust shaft?

No, in 2010 there was no one else to place in that position, so Bozak kept it. At this point in time, no one has proven they can do the job better. It may not be a regular job, but the theory is the same you get promoted to a better position if you can do the job better then the person who is currently doing it. So Kadri did not do it. That is why he is on the second line still.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Speaking of which - anyone know where I can find a list of games that Kadri was the top line C last season?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Speaking of which - anyone know where I can find a list of games that Kadri was the top line C last season?

I'm going through that as we speak.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Speaking of which - anyone know where I can find a list of games that Kadri was the top line C last season?

I'm going through that as we speak.

I feel for you.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Ok, so Bozak missed time from Oct. 26-Nov. 23 and Dec. 5-Dec. 27. Lets look at that first stretch first.

Things started off well as Kadri and Kessel combined for 10 points in the first 2 games. In the two games following that Kadri had a single point while Kessel had 0. That's when the JVR experiment started. To be clear, Kadri had four games on the top line when Bozak was first injured before he was replaced. Kadri went back to the 2nd line before missing 3 because of his suspension. Upon return from his suspension he was put back on to the top line where he scored a goal but Phil was pointless. Kadri was again bumped from the top line after that for a game as Holland played there before Bozak returned. All-in-all Kadri had 5 games on Kessel's line where he put up a total of 6 points during Bozak's first absence.

Bozak's 2nd injury had him out for 12 games, and Kadri was on the top line for all 12 of them. During the first 6 games Kadri had 5 points (Kessel had 7). So at this point we're looking at 11 games and 11 points for Kadri on Kessel's line. It's the last 6 games that everybody remembers though and this is what tarnishes Kadri's record. Kadri had just 1 point and Kessel had 0 at even-strength. A bad stretch, no doubt. But two things to keep in mind are that during this stretch Kadri was taken off the top powerplay unit in favour of Lupul, something that never really happened when Bozak was in the line-up. The other is that Carlyle started to cut Kadri and Kessel's even-strength ice-time in the final 4 games of that stretch, which led to some fun instances where Jay McClement actually played the same or more than those two did at even-strength.

So in 17 games where he played primarily with Kessel Kadri had 12 points, which is a .70 PPG rate. In the 4 seasons prior to last season Bozak scored 134 points in 238 games, playing almost exclusively with Kessel. A .56 PPG rate. Bozak had 4 years of sucking with Kessel before finally having a successful season. If he kept getting another chance there's absolutely no reason we should be writing Kadri off after 17 games.

 

[freer]

Ok, so Bozak missed time from Oct. 26-Nov. 23 and Dec. 5-Dec. 27. Lets look at that first stretch first.

Things started off well as Kadri and Kessel combined for 10 points in the first 2 games. In the two games following that Kadri had a single point while Kessel had 0. That's when the JVR experiment started. To be clear, Kadri had four games on the top line when Bozak was first injured before he was replaced. Kadri went back to the 2nd line before missing 3 because of his suspension. Upon return from his suspension he was put back on to the top line where he scored a goal but Phil was pointless. Kadri was again bumped from the top line after that for a game as Holland played there before Bozak returned. All-in-all Kadri had 5 games on Kessel's line where he put up a total of 6 points during Bozak's first absence.

Bozak's 2nd injury had him out for 12 games, and Kadri was on the top line for all 12 of them. During the first 6 games Kadri had 5 points (Kessel had 7). So at this point we're looking at 11 games and 11 points for Kadri on Kessel's line. It's the last 6 games that everybody remembers though and this is what tarnishes Kadri's record. Kadri had just 1 point and Kessel had 0 at even-strength. A bad stretch, no doubt. But two things to keep in mind are that during this stretch Kadri was taken off the top powerplay unit in favour of Lupul, something that never really happened when Bozak was in the line-up. The other is that Carlyle started to cut Kadri and Kessel's even-strength ice-time in the final 4 games of that stretch, which led to some fun instances where Jay McClement actually played the same or more than those two did at even-strength.

So in 17 games where he played primarily with Kessel Kadri had 12 points, which is a .70 PPG rate. In the 4 seasons prior to last season Bozak scored 134 points in 238 games, playing almost exclusively with Kessel. A .56 PPG rate. Bozak had 4 years of sucking with Kessel before finally having a successful season. If he kept getting another chance there's absolutely no reason we should be writing Kadri off after 17 games.

I never said to write Kadri off. All I said is that he will have to take the job, and last season he did not. Sure he can do this season, and maybe he will. Only time will tell. BTW there are other issues then just PPG that come into play.

 

[louisstamos]

Ok, so Bozak missed time from Oct. 26-Nov. 23 and Dec. 5-Dec. 27. Lets look at that first stretch first.

Things started off well as Kadri and Kessel combined for 10 points in the first 2 games. In the two games following that Kadri had a single point while Kessel had 0. That's when the JVR experiment started. To be clear, Kadri had four games on the top line when Bozak was first injured before he was replaced. Kadri went back to the 2nd line before missing 3 because of his suspension. Upon return from his suspension he was put back on to the top line where he scored a goal but Phil was pointless. Kadri was again bumped from the top line after that for a game as Holland played there before Bozak returned. All-in-all Kadri had 5 games on Kessel's line where he put up a total of 6 points during Bozak's first absence.

Bozak's 2nd injury had him out for 12 games, and Kadri was on the top line for all 12 of them. During the first 6 games Kadri had 5 points (Kessel had 7). So at this point we're looking at 11 games and 11 points for Kadri on Kessel's line. It's the last 6 games that everybody remembers though and this is what tarnishes Kadri's record. Kadri had just 1 point and Kessel had 0 at even-strength. A bad stretch, no doubt. But two things to keep in mind are that during this stretch Kadri was taken off the top powerplay unit in favour of Lupul, something that never really happened when Bozak was in the line-up. The other is that Carlyle started to cut Kadri and Kessel's even-strength ice-time in the final 4 games of that stretch, which led to some fun instances where Jay McClement actually played the same or more than those two did at even-strength.

So in 17 games where he played primarily with Kessel Kadri had 12 points, which is a .70 PPG rate. In the 4 seasons prior to last season Bozak scored 134 points in 238 games, playing almost exclusively with Kessel. A .56 PPG rate. Bozak had 4 years of sucking with Kessel before finally having a successful season. If he kept getting another chance there's absolutely no reason we should be writing Kadri off after 17 games.

 

[louisstamos]

To be fair, freer

I hate to get in the middle of this debate again, but IMO Kadri had 24 games to prove he was better then Bozak and he did not prove it. If 20 games is not enough time to prove you deserve to be in that position then there is a problem. If a person cant do a job with in 20 days, he or she would be fired or removed from that job or position. Just saying.

That sounds (to me at least) like you're writing him off...hence all the posts in response.

 

[Fanatic]

Ok, so Bozak missed time from Oct. 26-Nov. 23 and Dec. 5-Dec. 27. Lets look at that first stretch first.

Things started off well as Kadri and Kessel combined for 10 points in the first 2 games. In the two games following that Kadri had a single point while Kessel had 0. That's when the JVR experiment started. To be clear, Kadri had four games on the top line when Bozak was first injured before he was replaced. Kadri went back to the 2nd line before missing 3 because of his suspension. Upon return from his suspension he was put back on to the top line where he scored a goal but Phil was pointless. Kadri was again bumped from the top line after that for a game as Holland played there before Bozak returned. All-in-all Kadri had 5 games on Kessel's line where he put up a total of 6 points during Bozak's first absence.

Bozak's 2nd injury had him out for 12 games, and Kadri was on the top line for all 12 of them. During the first 6 games Kadri had 5 points (Kessel had 7). So at this point we're looking at 11 games and 11 points for Kadri on Kessel's line. It's the last 6 games that everybody remembers though and this is what tarnishes Kadri's record. Kadri had just 1 point and Kessel had 0 at even-strength. A bad stretch, no doubt. But two things to keep in mind are that during this stretch Kadri was taken off the top powerplay unit in favour of Lupul, something that never really happened when Bozak was in the line-up. The other is that Carlyle started to cut Kadri and Kessel's even-strength ice-time in the final 4 games of that stretch, which led to some fun instances where Jay McClement actually played the same or more than those two did at even-strength.

So in 17 games where he played primarily with Kessel Kadri had 12 points, which is a .70 PPG rate. In the 4 seasons prior to last season Bozak scored 134 points in 238 games, playing almost exclusively with Kessel. A .56 PPG rate. Bozak had 4 years of sucking with Kessel before finally having a successful season. If he kept getting another chance there's absolutely no reason we should be writing Kadri off after 17 games.

Those darn facts!

Still, if you think about how to match guys together, would people not agree that 3 snipers together on a line is not the best distribution of talent. Each one will be looking to score. Given the Leafs limited resources in the top 6 (because that is what we are talking about now) doesn't it make more sense to have a guy like Bozak (who will dish off to the sniper) paired with Kessel and Kadri with another set up man?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Ok, so Bozak missed time from Oct. 26-Nov. 23 and Dec. 5-Dec. 27. Lets look at that first stretch first.

Things started off well as Kadri and Kessel combined for 10 points in the first 2 games. In the two games following that Kadri had a single point while Kessel had 0. That's when the JVR experiment started. To be clear, Kadri had four games on the top line when Bozak was first injured before he was replaced. Kadri went back to the 2nd line before missing 3 because of his suspension. Upon return from his suspension he was put back on to the top line where he scored a goal but Phil was pointless. Kadri was again bumped from the top line after that for a game as Holland played there before Bozak returned. All-in-all Kadri had 5 games on Kessel's line where he put up a total of 6 points during Bozak's first absence.

Bozak's 2nd injury had him out for 12 games, and Kadri was on the top line for all 12 of them. During the first 6 games Kadri had 5 points (Kessel had 7). So at this point we're looking at 11 games and 11 points for Kadri on Kessel's line. It's the last 6 games that everybody remembers though and this is what tarnishes Kadri's record. Kadri had just 1 point and Kessel had 0 at even-strength. A bad stretch, no doubt. But two things to keep in mind are that during this stretch Kadri was taken off the top powerplay unit in favour of Lupul, something that never really happened when Bozak was in the line-up. The other is that Carlyle started to cut Kadri and Kessel's even-strength ice-time in the final 4 games of that stretch, which led to some fun instances where Jay McClement actually played the same or more than those two did at even-strength.

So in 17 games where he played primarily with Kessel Kadri had 12 points, which is a .70 PPG rate. In the 4 seasons prior to last season Bozak scored 134 points in 238 games, playing almost exclusively with Kessel. A .56 PPG rate. Bozak had 4 years of sucking with Kessel before finally having a successful season. If he kept getting another chance there's absolutely no reason we should be writing Kadri off after 17 games.

Those darn facts!

Still, if you think about how to match guys together, would people not agree that 3 snipers together on a line is not the best distribution of talent. Each one will be looking to score. Given the Leafs limited resources in the top 6 (because that is what we are talking about now) doesn't it make more sense to have a guy like Bozak (who will dish off to the sniper) paired with Kessel and Kadri with another set up man?

Why is Kadri considered a sniper?  He's never had more goals than assists at any level of junior or pro hockey.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Still, if you think about how to match guys together, would people not agree that 3 snipers together on a line is not the best distribution of talent. Each one will be looking to score. Given the Leafs limited resources in the top 6 (because that is what we are talking about now) doesn't it make more sense to have a guy like Bozak (who will dish off to the sniper) paired with Kessel and Kadri with another set up man?

I think Kadri and even Kessel are good enough playmakers that they'd be fine. I'm also not sure I'd classify Kadri as a sniper. I kinda get what you meant earlier, but I think Kadri's problem is maybe that he hangs onto the puck for too long before distributing it, which makes it seem like he doesn't want to pass. But that could be just as much of a problem as Bozak looking to pass to Kessel as quickly as possible 98% of the time he gets the puck.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Still, if you think about how to match guys together, would people not agree that 3 snipers together on a line is not the best distribution of talent. Each one will be looking to score. Given the Leafs limited resources in the top 6 (because that is what we are talking about now) doesn't it make more sense to have a guy like Bozak (who will dish off to the sniper) paired with Kessel and Kadri with another set up man?

I think Kadri and even Kessel are good enough playmakers that they'd be fine. I'm also not sure I'd classify Kadri as a sniper. I kinda get what you meant earlier, but I think Kadri's problem is maybe that he hangs onto the puck for too long before distributing it, which makes it seem like he doesn't want to pass. But that could be just as much of a problem as Bozak looking to pass to Kessel as quickly as possible 98% of the time he gets the puck.

Yeah I think he's just more confident making plays or wants to maintain the puck to make a play longer than maybe some others on the team.