Leafs @ sens - Dec. 7th, 7:00pm - CBC, SN 590

[CarltonTheBear]

Orr has 5 fights all year and won 1 of them.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Fraser and Mclaren are as useless as tits on a bull. Thanks God Bolthead is resting his elbow, one down and two more to go. And please keep Mclement on line 4 where he belongs.  I am starting to really get pissed at Randy C at this point.

I think Orr has been skating fairly well, is only a -3, has had just 3 non-fight related penalties (So he's not just playing like an idiot), brings 110% effort and energy, throws hard legal hits, and never takes a shift off. What more exactly do you want from a fourth line fighter/energy player? He's easily top 10 in his category in the league in my opinion.

Wha?  I'd say on just San Jose and Dallas their entire 4th lines are each leagues better than Orr.  And that's just two teams, 6 players.

What more do I want?  A player who can handle the puck?  A player who can carry the puck?  A player who can play defense?  A player who can keep up with others in the league?  A player who at least provides the potential they might score a goal or help set one up?  A player who can cycle the puck?

Really almost anything other than the nothing Orr does.

I didn't say his position, I said his category and then I even labeled it for you (Fighter/Energy).

Now obviously if you look at the best fourth liners in the league you're going to see some great ones every year. (Helm during Detroit's Stanley Cup run in 2008 comes to mind.) And if we could I'd ice 6 Helm's in my bottom six all year round. But today I'm talking about Orr and his specific role that he does and he's one of the best at it. Now if you want to argue that that role shouldn't exist be my guest. If you dislike fighting and gooning it up, by all means put that down too. But don't try to say that it's a fact that he's bad at what he does. Or at least if you do, for the time being I'll continue to disagree.

And I said I would take the 4th liners on those two teams over him, for "energy" and for everything else.

 

[bustaheims]

It's hard for Orr to provide "energy" when he's not a fast enough skater to be effective on the forecheck. It's also hard for him to provide when he's spending most of his ice time in the defensive zone. And, since he's barely fighting these days, it's hard to put him in the top 10 in that sort of category, regardless of how useless a category it may be.

 

[Corn Flake]

Well if CF is talking on behalf of all the negative posters I'll step up for the positive posters here:

Everything is fine lets bury our heads in the sand now!

Alright Rick, may as well shut her down.

Yeah, and that's not what the "positive" posters think at all but sure you can go that way if you want.

I said what I said in reference to the repetition at which the same comments are posted over and over again.  You can be upset about all those things if you want - go ahead - but we get it already.

And if you think I am "happy" with how things are right now, you aren't even close to being right.

 

[Bullfrog]

All I want from a 4th liner, is, well, something.

Hard forechecking, good defensive play, something like that. My opposition to Orr and McLaren has nothing to do with their fighting. It's from objectively watching them play. Occasionally, Orr will have a good shift with some hits, but it's just too few and far between.

 

[Highlander]

Hey Cornflake,
I agree with everything you say but I do see an upside to Ranger. I would like to see Mclement on fourth line, between Brolldozer and Devane for a few games

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Yeah, and that's not what the "positive" posters think at all but sure you can go that way if you want.

Yeah well, you weren't exactly 100% accurate on what you posted either.

I said what I said in reference to the repetition at which the same comments are posted over and over again.  You can be upset about all those things if you want - go ahead - but we get it already.

Unless there was a memo I missed, I can post my thoughts whenever I feel like it. If you don't want to read it that's up to you. I'm not just going to go silent just because I've stated my thoughts once already in the past. Just like you're going to give us your opinions on corsi every single time it comes up in conversation.

And if you think I am "happy" with how things are right now, you aren't even close to being right.

Just out of curiosity then, what do you think are the three biggest problems with this team right now?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Hard forechecking, good defensive play, something like that. My opposition to Orr and McLaren has nothing to do with their fighting. It's from objectively watching them play. Occasionally, Orr will have a good shift with some hits, but it's just too few and far between.

That's just it. If they were out there hitting everything in sight in the 5 minutes they played and sticking up for every single questionable hit that the opposition takes I'd be pretty fine with that. But they go out there and coast for 95% of the time they are out there. Their jobs are 100% secure and they know that.

Which is also why a lot of people would be fine if similar players like Bodie and Broll came up and replaced them. They would at least put an effort in.

 

[nutman]

Hard forechecking, good defensive play, something like that. My opposition to Orr and McLaren has nothing to do with their fighting. It's from objectively watching them play. Occasionally, Orr will have a good shift with some hits, but it's just too few and far between.

That's just it. If they were out there hitting everything in sight in the 5 minutes they played and sticking up for every single questionable hit that the opposition takes I'd be pretty fine with that. But they go out there and coast for 95% of the time they are out there. Their jobs are 100% secure and they know that.

Which is also why a lot of people would be fine if similar players like Bodie and Broll came up and replaced them. They would at least put an effort in.

Now that I can agree with.

 

[Corn Flake]

I said what I said in reference to the repetition at which the same comments are posted over and over again.  You can be upset about all those things if you want - go ahead - but we get it already.

Unless there was a memo I missed, I can post my thoughts whenever I feel like it. If you don't want to read it that's up to you. I'm not just going to go silent just because I've stated my thoughts once already in the past. Just like you're going to give us your opinions on corsi every single time it comes up in conversation.

Once?  ;D

And if you think I am "happy" with how things are right now, you aren't even close to being right.

Just out of curiosity then, what do you think are the three biggest problems with this team right now?

Just 3?    Alright...

1. Lack of physical play. They have lost their identity from last year which had a lot to do with hammering opponents. Seems partly to do with personnel changes but also has to do with confidence.. they seem afraid to risk taking a penalty.  Komarov is badly missed.

2. Scoring from bottom two lines and defense (moreso defense)

3. Overall defensive and transition play from the forwards in their own zone.. exiting the zone too early... not in position to control boards or provide d-men with good outlets ... leaving defense only option to chip it out ... too far up in neutral zone to make plays and generate speed through it .. zone entry, discombobulation at the blueline.. too many sloppy offsides (part to do with so many line shuffles, injuries biggest reason). Basically all of these things are contributing to the lack of puck possession time and time spent in the opposing zone. 

And injuries cannot be ignored, especially up the middle.

 

[freer]

Just beat the turds tonight. GLG

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Just 3?    Alright...

I would say the level-headed versions of the 8 points you made earlier would account for the majority of those problems.

 

[Highlander]

Yes there are problems like getting outshot two to one most nights but there are so many positives also, Carlyle will be gone if we don't make the playoffs this year, so that is a start.  But we have players like Kessel, Lupul, JVR, Phanuef, Rielly as a core to build around. Players like Percy, Finn, McWilliams waiting there turn.  And many fine forward prospects as well just down the pike.
Yes I want to win now as much as anyone but we have to remember we still have winning record and if we can win the next couple of games things will not seem so bad.

 

[Corn Flake]

Just 3?    Alright...

I would say the level-headed versions of the 8 points you made earlier would account for the majority of those problems.

Some yes, some no.

I think Carlyle is a good coach (this whole "he is dumb and stupid" stuff is just childish and really really off base).  I disagree with things he does at times but that doesn't mean he's terrible.

Holland has had opportunities and needs time to be more impact.  He didn't exactly come from 1st/2nd line duties in Anaheim.

Orr isn't playing physical.. may be due to injury or whatever but it's a reason for the identity loss yes.. but Orr not being good at anything else is nothing new.  He's not playing for a while now so not worth barking up that tree for the moment.

Jay McClement does his job just fine.  Has made mistakes.  So has everyone. He's a key piece to this team.

Mark Fraser isn't what he was last year. I think it's the injuries. He and Franson were a very good 2nd pair last year. Not taking that away from him.  I see the value in having a physical d-man back there because our defense is nowhere near as tough to play against as they should be. 

A 4th line isn't about skill.  Functional? Yes but putting Leivo or Ashton on that line doesn't make sense at all, IMO.  (you guys get made when Holland is on that line... kind of confused by that).  I generally liked the 4th line last game when it was D'Amigo/McClement/FML.  To me that is a good combo of function and muscle.

 

[Bonsixx]

Solid goaltending and good special teams are pretty much all you need to be successful in the NHL these days, especially if you make the playoffs and get a good stretch of both.

The Leafs are far from perfect and get consistently outchanced (and maybe outworked?), but they have shown that they are capable of getting both of those key elements. Making the playoffs is still a big if, obviously, but if they do get in, they'll be just as dangerous as any other team.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

A 4th line isn't about skill.  Functional? Yes but putting Leivo or Ashton on that line doesn't make sense at all, IMO.  (you guys get made when Holland is on that line... kind of confused by that).  I generally liked the 4th line last game when it was D'Amigo/McClement/FML.  To me that is a good combo of function and muscle.

Like you said, we've been over a lot of what you said earlier so I won't really touch it right now (until game time when I feel like complaining again). But I wanted to say something here. I don't think very many people are talking about playing Leivo on the 4th line. I myself have wanted him called up but that's to replace McClement on the 3rd line to provide some more offence there.

But the ones that do want him on the 4th line want it to be a 4th line that can actually provide offence. Nobody wants to see Leivo-McClement-FML or FML-Holland-Orr or something like that. That's putting an offensive player in a role that doesn't suit him and is a complete waste of his talents. But a Leivo-Holland-Ashton 4th line? Well, considering how this team has struggled to produce offence I could get behind a 4th line like that that might be able to notch a goal in 7-10 minutes ice time instead of one that won't.

If the rest of the team was producing offence then this wouldn't be an issue. But they aren't, so we need to find offence in other ways and that might be one of them.

 

[ZBBM]

Solid goaltending and good special teams are pretty much all you need to be successful in the NHL these days, especially if you make the playoffs and get a good stretch of both.

The Leafs are far from perfect and get consistently outchanced (and maybe outworked?), but they have shown that they are capable of getting both of those key elements. Making the playoffs is still a big if, obviously, but if they do get in, they'll be just as dangerous as any other team.

I appreciate that you've resisted ragging on Carlyle and have tried to insert some level-headedness, especially in the postgame GDT comments (although I, for one, have never lost my composure or perspective in those).  8) :-X

But, while I agree with you that goaltending is the most important ingredient of success in the playoffs, special teams aren't the second key.  I'd say puck control is: the more you have it, the more you control the energy expended on the ice, and the more you have in the tank for the the 4 rounds it takes to win it all.

 

[bustaheims]

jonasTSN1050: Joffrey Lupul did not make the trip to Ottawa. Out again tonight.

 

[Capn_Crunch]

My gf came home after a few weeks away working and she bought me a Kessel game worn Jersey while on her travels, she didn't want me to wait till xmas. God I love her.... 

Now I'm hoping for a win to break this jersey in with.
Kick some senaturd ass tonight boys!
GLG!!!

 

[Kin]

My gf came home after a few weeks away working and she bought me a Kessel game worn Jersey while on her travels

You can tell it's authentic because of the lack of sweat.