• For users coming over from tmlfans.ca your username will remain the same but you will need to use the password reset feature (check your spam folder) on the login page in order to set your password. If you encounter issues, email Rick couchmanrick@gmail.com

Luongo

Brian Glennie said:
Justin said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
Brian Glennie said:
Nik V. Debs said:
RedLeaf said:
That's a real possibility. If you put yourself in Burkes frame of mind, almost needing to make the playoffs this season, do the potential benefits outweigh the risks? I'm guessing they do.
 

I'd hope, and I do believe this to his credit, that Burke wouldn't put that sort of short-term job saving rationale above what's really best for the long term future of the club.

Sometimes Burke's rationale can be a bit difficult to discern, though. Take Colby Armstrong (please). He had one year at $2M left on his contract. Back in July, even though he must have known there was a lockout about to take place, Burke opted to buy him out. So that's great for Colby because got paid a million dollars this season even though there's no hockey but it's kind of tough on the Leafs because the other $1M will count against next year's cap.

It that might be a case of where we don't have all the information.  Maybe Burke needed to have a contract spot, and that was the only way to get one, or maybe he though he was going to need the cap space.  Without all the information it makes it hard to really say why the decision was made.
I think the buy-out was made simply because Colby had no spot on the team and the Leafs knew they'd need room for Kadri, Frattin, Komarov, ect. to play. Remember, the Leafs had exactly 0 UFAs up front this past off-season. I'd rather jettison Armstrong out of town and pay a measly $1 M for an extra year to give one of the young guys a roster spot they deserve.

I'm astonished that so many people, and Nik am I ever surprised to see you among them, advise that we ought continue to give this clown the benefit of the doubt.

Armstrong's roster spot was fair game for any winger in the system who was good enough to grab it. Remember, Colby only played in 29 games last season. He didn't have an NMC and Burke could always have optioned him to the Marlies in the unlikely event that there was going to be hockey this year. Otherwise, Armstrong's contract was coming off the books. Even though Burke has known for years that the NHL was heading towards another nasty, protracted labour dispute with the players he still chose to buy out this plug probably because Armstrong's a "good guy" who doesn't belong in the minors and Burke always has the player's best interest at heart and blah blah blah.

It's lousy management. The cap is coming down next year and pissing away even $1M of it on a short-sighted buyout that didn't even have to happen is not the kind of move I'd associate with a GM who's going to shine in the post-lockout NHL.
Burke has his own set of rules, his own code if you will, we all know that. He imposes his own pre-Christmas trade freeze, he refuses to give out extra long-term contracts, and he tries to avoid free agency as a means of improving his teams.

Burke is right that Colby doesn't deserve to be in the minors just because the Leafs have too many bodies. Armstrong has a future he has to secure for his family and playing in the AHL will not help his prospects in a contract year. These players have lives, ya know.

The young kids that deserve spots shouldn't be denied that because the Leafs too many mediocre veterans, and the veterans shouldn't be sent to the AHL either. Buying out Armstrong was an amicable solution.
 
Justin said:
Burke has his own set of rules, his own code if you will, we all know that. He imposes his own pre-Christmas trade freeze, he refuses to give out extra long-term contracts, and he tries to avoid free agency as a means of improving his teams.

Burke is right that Colby doesn't deserve to be in the minors just because the Leafs have too many bodies. Armstrong has a future he has to secure for his family and playing in the AHL will not help his prospects in a contract year. These players have lives, ya know.

The young kids that deserve spots shouldn't be denied that because the Leafs too many mediocre veterans, and the veterans shouldn't be sent to the AHL either. Buying out Armstrong was an amicable solution.

Well said.
 
Brian Glennie said:
I'm astonished that so many people, and Nik am I ever surprised to see you among them, advise that we ought continue to give this clown the benefit of the doubt.

Armstrong's roster spot was fair game for any winger in the system who was good enough to grab it. Remember, Colby only played in 29 games last season. He didn't have an NMC and Burke could always have optioned him to the Marlies in the unlikely event that there was going to be hockey this year. Otherwise, Armstrong's contract was coming off the books. Even though Burke has known for years that the NHL was heading towards another nasty, protracted labour dispute with the players he still chose to buy out this plug probably because Armstrong's a "good guy" who doesn't belong in the minors and Burke always has the player's best interest at heart and blah blah blah.

It's lousy management. The cap is coming down next year and pissing away even $1M of it on a short-sighted buyout that didn't even have to happen is not the kind of move I'd associate with a GM who's going to shine in the post-lockout NHL.

I think Brian's crystal ball was on the blink... seriously though, how was he to know it was a buyout he didn't have to give? ( I mean, they're still negotiating, right? ) Also, if there's any truth to the rumoured desire of contracts in the AHL counting against the cap for players like Army then it still may have been the right move. As it is, I find it hard to get on him for this now, it's not ideal but then Army was expected to play a larger role and ran into the injury wall.
 
Oh, and yeah, Luongo... I'd rather take a chance on Thomas or Backstrom being available next year, by light years...
 
Probably not the right place to ask this, but I'd be curious to know how many fans would forgo the rest of this season if it meant the Leafs got the number one overall pick in next years draft. I know, it's fantasy land, but still curious.....
 
RedLeaf said:
Probably not the right right place to ask this, but I'd be curious to know how many fans would forgo the rest of this season if it meant the Leafs got the number one overall pick in next years draft. I know, it's fantasy land, but still curious.....

Hurm, the Leafs playing or not playing, which might give the best shot at the number one overall pick next year... hurm... ;)
 
Brian Glennie said:
I'm astonished that so many people, and Nik am I ever surprised to see you among them, advise that we ought continue to give this clown the benefit of the doubt.

It has nothing to do with giving anyone the benefit of the doubt and everything to do with what I think was the correct thing to do given the realities of his job.

Regardless of your claims to the contrary, Burke didn't know the season was going to be shut down and didn't, and still doesn't, know what the system is going to look like when hockey comes back. It's fine enough to speculate but until we know what sort of provisions or mechanisms teams will have to get under the cap it doesn't make a lot of sense to pretend that we know the value or impact that the 1 million dollars Colby Armstrong will count for next season.

The way I see it, ignoring the lockout for a moment, Burke had three options with what to do with Armstrong. Buy him out and split up his cap hit over two years, keep him in the hopes that he'd play again or send him to the minors. Assuming that Burke had already decided that the team wanted to move on and make his spot available we're left between the pros and cons of buying him out vs. burying him and I think buying him out made more sense for a few reasons.

First, I think the cap implications are largely irrelevant. The Leafs didn't figure to be a team that spent to the cap this year and don't next year either. That makes the potential cap implications meaningless in my books. Two this year vs. one and one, it doesn't matter if there's cap room regardless. Moreover, the Leafs still have players like Connolly and Lombardi who they can trade/bury if cap space does become a huge concern.

Secondly, I think there is genuine benefit to the team in doing the right thing by Armstrong. The Leafs don't want to be seen as a team who will send players to the AHL if they spy even the slightest hint of benefit in doing so. Armstrong, as evidenced by his contract with Montreal, is still a guy who can get a NHL contract. If I were a lower-tier free agent and the Leafs developed a reputation for burying players who could still contribute just to save a few cap dollars, I'd almost certainly not want to sign with them.

Third, and I know we like to pretend that the Leafs should genuinely not care about money, but the reality is that no matter how profitable a business is a manager is going to have to account for the financial decisions he makes. if the Leafs had no design on having Armstrong on the team and the buyout presented them with the option of paying him one million dollars as opposed to two in the AHL, then it was the prudent and reasonable thing to do to save the organization the extra million. I don't care if the Leafs are earning money like they invented the Ipad, million dollar decisions are still important and Burke has to justify it to the people who employ him.

So was there a benefit to demoting Armstrong? Not really. Is there a benefit to buying him out? I think so. Was it the right thing to do professionally? Almost unquestionably. So in the end it has nothing to do with giving anyone the benefit of the doubt. I'd have done the exact same thing.

So then we get back to the lockout and, again, the simple reality is that Burke didn't know how things would shake out and we still don't. I'm not going to kill him now for conducting his business as if that were the case and there's no reason to until we see the highly unlikely event that the million bucks Armstrong gets over the next two years proves to be the terrible calamity you seem to think it'll be.
 
RedLeaf said:
Probably not the right place to ask this, but I'd be curious to know how many fans would forgo the rest of this season if it meant the Leafs got the number one overall pick in next years draft. I know, it's fantasy land, but still curious.....

I would. I'd like to see some NHL hockey this year, but I can live without it until they get it settled. And if the Leafs were coming back with a newly drafted potential franchise player? Hell, yeah.
 
If the lockout takes the full season it sure would be nice to get a top-3 pick out of it, but this Toronto we're talking about. There's no way we get lucky with the lottery.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
If the lockout takes the full season it sure would be nice to get a top-3 pick out of it, but this Toronto we're talking about. There's no way we get lucky with the lottery.

So Burke may have to eat his words with the "Pittsburg Model".

 
Guru Tugginmypuddah said:
CarltonTheBear said:
If the lockout takes the full season it sure would be nice to get a top-3 pick out of it, but this Toronto we're talking about. There's no way we get lucky with the lottery.

So Burke may have to eat his words with the "Pittsburg Model".

Yes he would. He should of never opened his large trap saying something so ridiculous! He knew this lockout was coming! :P
 
OldTimeHockey said:
Guru Tugginmypuddah said:
CarltonTheBear said:
If the lockout takes the full season it sure would be nice to get a top-3 pick out of it, but this Toronto we're talking about. There's no way we get lucky with the lottery.

So Burke may have to eat his words with the "Pittsburg Model".

Yes he would. He should of never opened his large trap saying something so ridiculous! He knew this lockout was coming! :P

He can always just untie his tie... that should be able to divert enough attention.
 
RedLeaf said:
Probably not the right place to ask this, but I'd be curious to know how many fans would forgo the rest of this season if it meant the Leafs got the number one overall pick in next years draft. I know, it's fantasy land, but still curious.....

The answer is easy for me: definitely.

The awful thing about the lockout is that the leafs are going to suck even if it gets resolved ...
 
princedpw said:
RedLeaf said:
Probably not the right place to ask this, but I'd be curious to know how many fans would forgo the rest of this season if it meant the Leafs got the number one overall pick in next years draft. I know, it's fantasy land, but still curious.....

The answer is easy for me: definitely.

The awful thing about the lockout is that the leafs are going to suck even if it gets resolved ...

Look, I understand the apathy, the disappointment, hell I'd go so far as to say the broken heart.  And I certainly realize the Leafs were among the worst teams in the league by the end.  But they had a pretty good record until an amazing - even for them - month in February and early March that saw them completely drop out.  They didn't "suck" last year, they played really, really poorly over a 5-6 week period.  I think that this is an important consideration when predicting how the Leafs will perform this year.
 
RedLeaf said:
Probably not the right place to ask this, but I'd be curious to know how many fans would forgo the rest of this season if it meant the Leafs got the number one overall pick in next years draft. I know, it's fantasy land, but still curious.....

I'm there.
 
Champ Kind said:
Look, I understand the apathy, the disappointment, hell I'd go so far as to say the broken heart.  And I certainly realize the Leafs were among the worst teams in the league by the end.  But they had a pretty good record until an amazing - even for them - month in February and early March that saw them completely drop out.  They didn't "suck" last year, they played really, really poorly over a 5-6 week period.  I think that this is an important consideration when predicting how the Leafs will perform this year.

With all due respect, I think you're kind of falling into an easy narrative about the club last season that isn't really true. The Leafs had a very up and down season. They were very good in October(7-3-1) and then mediocre in November(7-6-1) and then pretty bad in December(4-6-3) before another good month in January(7-4-1) before the lousy February(4-9-1) and March(5-8-2) before going 1-1-1 in April.

So that's only two of the six full months of the season where they played at a pace that would have seen them in the playoffs. Yeah, they fell off the map at the end but the difference between the Leafs in March and in December isn't much.

For the two years prior to this one all we heard in the off-season is that things weren't as bad as they seemed because the Leafs finished the year strongly. Now it's "things aren't as bad as they seemed because the Leafs started the year strongly?".

The reality is that, I bet, if you broke down just about any team with a lousy record you'd find fits and bursts where they played well. At this point I'm not convinced it really matters when or why they do. A team with a crappy record was a crappy team.
 
Nik V. Debs said:
Champ Kind said:
Look, I understand the apathy, the disappointment, hell I'd go so far as to say the broken heart.  And I certainly realize the Leafs were among the worst teams in the league by the end.  But they had a pretty good record until an amazing - even for them - month in February and early March that saw them completely drop out.  They didn't "suck" last year, they played really, really poorly over a 5-6 week period.  I think that this is an important consideration when predicting how the Leafs will perform this year.

With all due respect, I think you're kind of falling into an easy narrative about the club last season that isn't really true. The Leafs had a very up and down season. They were very good in October(7-3-1) and then mediocre in November(7-6-1) and then pretty bad in December(4-6-3) before another good month in January(7-4-1) before the lousy February(4-9-1) and March(5-8-2) before going 1-1-1 in April.

So that's only two of the six full months of the season where they played at a pace that would have seen them in the playoffs. Yeah, they fell off the map at the end but the difference between the Leafs in March and in December isn't much.

For the two years prior to this one all we heard in the off-season is that things weren't as bad as they seemed because the Leafs finished the year strongly. Now it's "things aren't as bad as they seemed because the Leafs started the year strongly?".

The reality is that, I bet, if you broke down just about any team with a lousy record you'd find fits and bursts where they played well. At this point I'm not convinced it really matters when or why they do. A team with a crappy record was a crappy team.

While I agree with you, the point I was trying to make is that, rather than simply mail in this tentative season I think a hint, a note of optimism is required.  So, if the logical progression was "The Leafs sucked last season, and they will suck this year, too", I am simply saying that the conclusion is based on a half-truth.  Yes, the Leafs played poorly - in fact, very poorly - at times, it is also true that there were periods of positive play.

I also think there's a big difference between late season bursts of solid play as opposed to playing well, if unspectacularly, for 5/8'ths of the year.  This has been rehasehed ad naseum on here, and perhaps I can't produce quantitative measures to sway you, but the team was better last year.  There are more and better young players in the system.  Whether this translates into real succes remains to be seen, but I'm not willing to resign the entire season and hope that the white night (hello, Nathan McKinnon) rides into town.
 
Champ Kind said:
While I agree with you, the point I was trying to make is that, rather than simply mail in this tentative season I think a hint, a note of optimism is required.  So, if the logical progression was "The Leafs sucked last season, and they will suck this year, too", I am simply saying that the conclusion is based on a half-truth.  Yes, the Leafs played poorly - in fact, very poorly - at times, it is also true that there were periods of positive play.

Well, and that's where I disagree with you. While "sucked" is of course a subjective measurement there is the stone cold fact that the team finished with the fifth worst record in the league last year. My point regarding the "periods of positive" play was that something similar could probably be said for any team provided, you know, they're not the expansion Washington Capitals. The Oilers, last year, started the season 8-2-2. The Blue Jackets finished the year 5-1-0.

Having positive periods during the season doesn't, to my mind, contradict saying that they stunk. 

Champ Kind said:
I also think there's a big difference between late season bursts of solid play as opposed to playing well, if unspectacularly, for 5/8'ths of the year.  This has been rehasehed ad naseum on here, and perhaps I can't produce quantitative measures to sway you, but the team was better last year.

Well, no. They weren't. I'm sorry but there are facts and then there are facts. They went from an 85 point season to an 80 point season. And if we're looking ahead, if we really want to parse things, then we can easily look back last year and say that many of the Leafs stronger stretches were in large part due to the intermittently pretty good play of a goalie who's no longer on the team.

What next season holds is a crapshoot at this point and I'm not arguing as to how much sun one wants to see on the horizon. But as someone who watched the team last year, there is no real way to turn that pig's ear into a silk purse.
 
RedLeaf said:
Probably not the right place to ask this, but I'd be curious to know how many fans would forgo the rest of this season if it meant the Leafs got the number one overall pick in next years draft. I know, it's fantasy land, but still curious.....

I would. The Leafs may be one of those teams who can only benefit from the lockout. They are young team and lot of their players get another good season and hopefully long play-off run with the Marlies (Gardiner, Kadri, Colborne, McKegg, Ryan, Holzer and Scrivens), others get time to adjust either to North American hockey or after long lay-off (Komarov, Ranger) and the whole Grabbo line will play overseas with Grabbo having Datsyuk and Kuli having Malkin as a playmate which could not hurt either.
 
drummond said:
RedLeaf said:
Probably not the right place to ask this, but I'd be curious to know how many fans would forgo the rest of this season if it meant the Leafs got the number one overall pick in next years draft. I know, it's fantasy land, but still curious.....

I would. The Leafs may be one of those teams who can only benefit from the lockout. They are young team and lot of their players get another good season and hopefully long play-off run with the Marlies (Gardiner, Kadri, Colborne, McKegg, Ryan, Holzer and Scrivens), others get time to adjust either to North American hockey or after long lay-off (Komarov, Ranger) and the whole Grabbo line will play overseas with Grabbo having Datsyuk and Kuli having Malkin as a playmate which could not hurt either.

Yeah, the Leafs should have a pretty good chance of landing near the start of the draft if they use the same model as last time.  There isn't a team that has missed the playoffs as much as the Leafs have over the last seven years.  You would hope that the odds would be in their favour that they would end up with a pretty decent pick.
 

About Us

This website is NOT associated with the Toronto Maple Leafs or the NHL.


It is operated by Rick Couchman and Jeff Lewis.
Back
Top