Mark Fraser

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I wasn't Kostka's biggest fan, but that's mostly because of how Carlyle used him. Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

Really? I mean, it's a little closer for me. I didn't hate Kostka and my statements above were sarcastic a bit, but I actually like Fraser's game a lot more. Maybe it's because I watched him more, but I valued what he brought, especially in front of the net and I thought this team really needed that.

I thought Kostka tried to be what Carlyle was trying to make him, which caused a lot of errors that otherwise were easy fixes. That's the best way I can describe it, there was something about his game I didn't like and it probably had more to do with his expanded role. I probably wouldn't have cared if he played 12 minutes a night, so I agree with you there.

But, I don't think Nonis made the wrong decision, I'm happy we have Fraser over Kostka. I can see how it could be viewed as a "meh" thing also. I don't really care about the financial aspect of it, but I can see how some would say "well we could have used the extra savings on Kadri or Franson", but I'm not worried either about Nonis moving someone for space to rectify that glitch.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Here's the thing, in my ideal line-up (based on what we have) neither of them are even in the top-6 for next season:

Gunnar-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Franson
Ranger-Holzer

Ranger would be ahead of Fraser and Holzer would be ahead of Kostka (mostly because Holzer fits that pairing better). I've always said since the start of last season that both Fraser and Kostka are 6/7 defencemen and both shouldn't be in the line-up at the same time if our blueline is healthy. Kostka would be the better 7th defenceman because he can fit onto any pairing if injuries struck and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer for me. I wouldn't pay Fraser twice as much just because he's more physical.

 

[Corn Flake]

Here's the thing, in my ideal line-up (based on what we have) neither of them are even in the top-6 for next season:

Gunnar-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Franson
Ranger-Holzer

Ranger would be ahead of Fraser and Holzer would be ahead of Kostka (mostly because Holzer fits that pairing better). I've always said since the start of last season that both Fraser and Kostka are 6/7 defencemen and both shouldn't be in the line-up at the same time if our blueline is healthy. Kostka would be the better 7th defenceman because he can fit onto any pairing if injuries struck and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer for me. I wouldn't pay Fraser twice as much just because he's more physical.

Maybe Holzer can step ahead of Fraser by the end of this year but going in, I don't think you can trust a top six job to Holzer yet.  He really struggled when called up last year.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Here's the thing, in my ideal line-up (based on what we have) neither of them are even in the top-6 for next season:

Gunnar-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Franson
Ranger-Holzer

Ranger would be ahead of Fraser and Holzer would be ahead of Kostka (mostly because Holzer fits that pairing better). I've always said since the start of last season that both Fraser and Kostka are 6/7 defencemen and both shouldn't be in the line-up at the same time if our blueline is healthy. Kostka would be the better 7th defenceman because he can fit onto any pairing if injuries struck and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer for me. I wouldn't pay Fraser twice as much just because he's more physical.

We're basically identical on our defensive line-up, other than that one point. I could live with...

Gunnar-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Franson
Fraser-Holzer
Ranger

I don't have Ranger in the 7 spot because of his talent, but rather to let him prove himself in the NHL again and breath.... let Carlyle manage his minutes a bit. Ranger could always force a trade through his play on the ice, in fact I would welcome that. Never know, maybe Gunnar gets traded and Ranger plays with Phaneuf, that will sort itself out.

Fraser and Holzer were good together in the "A", so why not let them form a shutdown pair, taking a little pressure off Phaneuf and Gunnarsson with an extra 3-5 minutes a game.

It could also form 2 good PP lines, giving Ranger a bit more TOI with that big shot...

Either way, we're talking about 6-7 defensemen here.

EDIT: That defense in HUGE!

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Maybe Holzer can step ahead of Fraser by the end of this year but going in, I don't think you can trust a top six job to Holzer yet.  He really struggled when called up last year.

I think part of his struggles was due to the fact that he wasn't being used properly. Of course he wasn't going to have success playing in a top-4 role, especially when he was up with Phaneuf. If he was playing Fraser's minutes against Fraser's competition I think things would have gone much better for him.

 

[Corn Flake]

Maybe Holzer can step ahead of Fraser by the end of this year but going in, I don't think you can trust a top six job to Holzer yet.  He really struggled when called up last year.

I think part of his struggles was due to the fact that he wasn't being used properly. Of course he wasn't going to have success playing in a top-4 role, especially when he was up with Phaneuf. If he was playing Fraser's minutes against Fraser's competition I think things would have gone much better for him.

I think you are right on that.  I watched a lot of him the year before and when he was with the Marlies last year and he is rock steady in his own end, making high percentage outlet passes with the puck. He was in panic mode when he was playing up with Phaneuf, etc. If he can come in and spend 20'ish games as the #6, I could see him doing fine.  Likely he starts as the 6/7 and we go from there, which I think is the right plan and lower risk one.

 

[armche123]

I wasn't Kostka's biggest fan, but that's mostly because of how Carlyle used him. Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

Kostka was an interesting project for the Leafs. I really don't think they got what they were looking for out of him at the trade deadline last year...

I never really understood what type of player he was, aside from one that would skate around with his hair in the wind... I think Fraser fits the bill moving forward, more than Kostka would... Yes, the Leafs are paying 600K more and losing that flowing hair in the wind.. It's ok.. cause we have Bozak for that now...

A typical Fraser highlight video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h21qBeB5lKQ
A typical Kostka highlight video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASs5TcknPL4

 

[Kin]

I wasn't Kostka's biggest fan, but that's mostly because of how Carlyle used him. Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

I think so but only because I think that it was never really a Kostka vs. Fraser question because what they're fringe-ok at is so different. To me it's more Ranger vs. Kostka and I'm fine with rolling the dice on Ranger in that situation.

 

[ZBBM]

I wasn't Kostka's biggest fan, but that's mostly because of how Carlyle used him. Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

I think so but only because I think that it was never really a Kostka vs. Fraser question because what they're fringe-ok at is so different. To me it's more Ranger vs. Kostka and I'm fine with rolling the dice on Ranger in that situation.

I agree with Nik on this.  Kostka and Fraser are two very different kinds of player.  Having said that, I'm with you CTB on their having fairly significantly overpaid for Fraser.  No way should he be getting north of $1M.  With this year's cap those piddly hundred of thousands of dollars's worth of salary difference are important.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I wasn't Kostka's biggest fan, but that's mostly because of how Carlyle used him. Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

I think so but only because I think that it was never really a Kostka vs. Fraser question because what they're fringe-ok at is so different. To me it's more Ranger vs. Kostka and I'm fine with rolling the dice on Ranger in that situation.

I get why you and others think that, but to me that says that we need somebody like Fraser in the line-up (a physical bottom pairing defenceman). And I just don't think that's the case. Like BWB said, we have a lot of defencemen with size on this team. Phaneuf, Franson, Ranger, and Holzer are all in the area of 6'3, 210lbs. Sure, none of them are as physical as Fraser, but it's not like he's the one keeping the defence corps from being soft. Those four guys can all handle themselves.

And if it is the case that the team really wanted a physical player like Fraser there, then maybe it's not Fraser vs. Kostka or Ranger but Fraser vs. whoever we can sign via free agency. Fraser had the Leafs handcuffed because of arbitration. They had to overpay him or the arbitrator would have done it for them. But Nonis should have been able to foresee that situation and just not qualified him. I'm sure there are plenty of Fraser types out there that the team could have acquired for almost half the price.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Gunnar 6' 2" - Phaneuf 6' 3"
Gardiner 6' 2"  - Franson 6' 5"
Fraser 6' 4"  - Holzer 6'-3"
Ranger 6'-2"

I don't know if this line-up will shake out to start the season, but as I said above, our defense would be pretty big.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Fraser had the Leafs handcuffed because of arbitration. They had to overpay him or the arbitrator would have done it for them. But Nonis should have been able to foresee that situation and just not qualified him. I'm sure there are plenty of Fraser types out there that the team could have acquired for almost half the price.

Right and I bet the Leafs probably think they made out okay. The median salary was going to be 1.4 million and they settled on 1.275 million. Fraser did have the upper hand in arbitration.

EDIT: I will add to your second point, that Fraser does have good chemistry with both Franson and Holzer, that has to account for something, no?

 

[Kin]

I get why you and others think that, but to me that says that we need somebody like Fraser in the line-up (a physical bottom pairing defenceman). And I just don't think that's the case. Like BWB said, we have a lot of defencemen with size on this team. Phaneuf, Franson, Ranger, and Holzer are all in the area of 6'3, 210lbs. Sure, none of them are as physical as Fraser, but it's not like he's the one keeping the defence corps from being soft. Those four guys can all handle themselves.

And if it is the case that the team really wanted a physical player like Fraser there, then maybe it's not Fraser vs. Kostka or Ranger but Fraser vs. whoever we can sign via free agency. Fraser had the Leafs handcuffed because of arbitration. They had to overpay him or the arbitrator would have done it for them. But Nonis should have been able to foresee that situation and just not qualified him. I'm sure there are plenty of Fraser types out there that the team could have acquired for almost half the price.

That just seems like a different point though. I don't really have an opinion on Fraser vs. a hypothetical free agent. I was just speaking to the notion of Fraser vs. Kostka at their respective salaries where I'd still probably lean towards Fraser.

 

[Corn Flake]

I wasn't Kostka's biggest fan, but that's mostly because of how Carlyle used him. Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

I think so but only because I think that it was never really a Kostka vs. Fraser question because what they're fringe-ok at is so different. To me it's more Ranger vs. Kostka and I'm fine with rolling the dice on Ranger in that situation.

The physical game Fraser plays to me is sooooo much more important than having a Kostka'ish d-man who doesn't really do one thing really well at all.  At least with Fraser you know you get a highly physical game and he's not going to burn you in other areas.... the type of d-man this team has lacked for quite some time. 

I'd rather pay more for that than have Kostka doing dumb things regardless of whether he played a role over his head or not.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I wasn't Kostka's biggest fan, but that's mostly because of how Carlyle used him. Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

I think so but only because I think that it was never really a Kostka vs. Fraser question because what they're fringe-ok at is so different. To me it's more Ranger vs. Kostka and I'm fine with rolling the dice on Ranger in that situation.

The physical game Fraser plays to me is sooooo much more important than having a Kostka'ish d-man who doesn't really do one thing really well at all.  At least with Fraser you know you get a highly physical game and he's not going to burn you in other areas.... the type of d-man this team has lacked for quite some time. 

I'd rather pay more for that than have Kostka doing dumb things regardless of whether he played a role over his head or not.

I guess that's where we differ then. While I appreciated Fraser's physical game I think he definitely "burned" the team on a regular basis. The blueline's biggest problem all year was getting the puck out of our zone and Fraser was a large part of that. I think that was made clear in the playoffs when it became less of a problem after Fraser's injury forced him out of the line-up.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Fraser had the Leafs handcuffed because of arbitration. They had to overpay him or the arbitrator would have done it for them. But Nonis should have been able to foresee that situation and just not qualified him. I'm sure there are plenty of Fraser types out there that the team could have acquired for almost half the price.

Right and I bet the Leafs probably think they made out okay. The median salary was going to be 1.4 million and they settled on 1.275 million. Fraser did have the upper hand in arbitration.

EDIT: I will add to your second point, that Fraser does have good chemistry with both Franson and Holzer, that has to account for something, no?

I do think that Fraser could have come out better in arbitration, so I suppose the contract he received isn't a complete failure. Capgeek very recently revealed that $400k of his salary comes in the form of a signing bonus so I guess that helped drop his number.

As for the chemistry thing, I don't know. If Franson returns to the team he likely won't be on the bottom pairing again. And a Fraser-Holzer pairing would worry be a lot with their lack of mobilty and puck movement. Also, Ranger played a fair bit with Holzer too on the Marlies so there's a bit of familiarity there too.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

As for the chemistry thing, I don't know. If Franson returns to the team he likely won't be on the bottom pairing again. And a Fraser-Holzer pairing would worry be a lot with their lack of mobilty and puck movement. Also, Ranger played a fair bit with Holzer too on the Marlies so there's a bit of familiarity there too.

Yeah, I guess it's more of an intangible, but between the 3 of them, there is a bottom pairing there at least I think. I'm hoping that Holzer's problems were just a result of Carlyle playing him with Phaneuf all the time and him being in over his head. Time will tell...

 

[Champ Kind]

I don't think Fraser lacked the ability to make a first pass.  In fact, I was repeatedly surprised at how well he moved the puck up-ice (relatively speaking, of course).  He also for the most part limited overt mistakes.  When errors did occur, my recollection is that they were the result of over-handling the puck and not taking the easy play when it was available.

 

[Kin]

It's also worth mentioning, I think, that Fraser is only 26 with limited NHL experience. So while he's probably not going to turn into a superstar or anything I don't think we should look at him last year as the absolute peak of what he can be.

 

[Corn Flake]

I wasn't Kostka's biggest fan, but that's mostly because of how Carlyle used him. Regardless of that though, is there any question that we let the wrong fringe-NHL defenceman go? With Kostka at $625k vs. Fraser at $1.275mil it isn't even close for me.

I think so but only because I think that it was never really a Kostka vs. Fraser question because what they're fringe-ok at is so different. To me it's more Ranger vs. Kostka and I'm fine with rolling the dice on Ranger in that situation.

The physical game Fraser plays to me is sooooo much more important than having a Kostka'ish d-man who doesn't really do one thing really well at all.  At least with Fraser you know you get a highly physical game and he's not going to burn you in other areas.... the type of d-man this team has lacked for quite some time. 

I'd rather pay more for that than have Kostka doing dumb things regardless of whether he played a role over his head or not.

I guess that's where we differ then. While I appreciated Fraser's physical game I think he definitely "burned" the team on a regular basis. The blueline's biggest problem all year was getting the puck out of our zone and Fraser was a large part of that. I think that was made clear in the playoffs when it became less of a problem after Fraser's injury forced him out of the line-up.

Well the one thing I would use to dispute that is his +/- number which was significantly higher than anyone on the team other than Kadri.  Now I know it's not a perfect stat and not one I rely on much but when you are a +18 and the next best d-man on the team is a +5, you are doing something right.

Outside of that I do agree he could be better at exiting the zone and yes he did get burned in the playoffs, but as Nik said, at 26 and such a small amount of NHL experience, there is plenty of headroom to get better.

It should also be mentioned how much Franson's game settled down when he was paired with Fraser.