Matt Martin signs with the Leafs [4 years, $2.5mil AAV]

[Redleaf]

Also, can we stop with the false narrative that 4th liners prevent people from getting hit hard angle.  It's not remotely true.

Who said anything about prevention.  I'm talking about consequences.

Didn't Backes just sign in Boston?  Do you like having Martin on your team if Backes starts after Kadri again?

No, because they are irrelevant.  Backes went after Kadri because Kadri was on the ice against him.  Last time I checked Backes doens't play on the 4th line.  This notion that players suddenly get scared and stop playing physical is what is ridiculous.

Good think Martin can actually play the game a little then, too.

This was a good, calculated move whether or not you agree with it.

If players want to take cheap shots and liberties at our top talent, the next time that player takes a shift, Martin will be out on the ice against them and I'm okay with that because of his ability to also suppress shots against while he's out.

So Babcock is gonna send the tough guys out to extract justice every time someone on the other team is mean to his guys? That sounds like a winning strategy.

Does it have to be protection? Can't we have these guys so other teams stars can't do what they normally might do?

I know someone in the know said something about Martin allowing our stars to play their game, but those guys say lots of things. I took it as we have Martin to do some dirty work so other guys, like our future stars, don't have to do it.

Wasn't Martin the guy protecting Stamkos when they both played for the Sarnia Sting?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

This was a good, calculated move whether or not you agree with it.

This doesn't make sense.  Transactions are inherently subjective and his opinion of the move is very much relevant as to whether he considers it a "good, calculated move" or doesn't.

 

[Bullfrog]

But his facts are more factual than your facts. That's a fact.

 

[Redleaf]

I really don't know much about Matt Martin, but I don't mind the Leafs adding a bigger supporting cast to round out the roster a bit. We needed to add more size to the mix to go along with all the young (and smallish) skilled players that will be trickling in over the next few seasons, and management is seeing to that with this signing as well as some picks made at the draft. I just don't agree with the fans that think we are good to go with as many small forwards as this team has moving forward. You need a good balance of players or you end up with little character or depth on your team, almost like the team the Oilers have been icing the last few years. Skill without size, sandpaper or defensive depth isn't a winning recipe.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I had a more detailed post and then it logged me out of my account.  Essentially the Leafs have 74M in current roster commitments if they go with their existing team (with the four big rookies - Nylander, Zaitsev, Marner and Matthews) and a very conservative estimate of 5.0M to sign Marincin/Holland/Corrado.

It's just bad cap management to be running into cap overages at this stage of the game.  Yes, money comes off the books next year but this is still a relatively bad team that shouldn't be hitting the cap, especially when most of those contracts didn't come as part of a nice return for the team.

They are up against the cap because of bad contracts they inherited (Lupul, Robidas) and short term contracts they took on to get out of a long term commitment (Greening, Cowen, Michalek) None of these deals have more than 2 years left on them.

They are tight against the cap for one more season, but long term they are in much better shape than they were when Shanahan took over.

Exactly, I really don't get where this negativity is coming from all of a sudden.

Is it because they didn't select the diverse group of primordial dwarves that the analytics community had anointed before the draft started?

 

[L K]

I had a more detailed post and then it logged me out of my account.  Essentially the Leafs have 74M in current roster commitments if they go with their existing team (with the four big rookies - Nylander, Zaitsev, Marner and Matthews) and a very conservative estimate of 5.0M to sign Marincin/Holland/Corrado.

It's just bad cap management to be running into cap overages at this stage of the game.  Yes, money comes off the books next year but this is still a relatively bad team that shouldn't be hitting the cap, especially when most of those contracts didn't come as part of a nice return for the team.

They are up against the cap because of bad contracts they inherited (Lupul, Robidas) and short term contracts they took on to get out of a long term commitment (Greening, Cowen, Michalek) None of these deals have more than 2 years left on them.

They are tight against the cap for one more season, but long term they are in much better shape than they were when Shanahan took over.

Exactly, I really don't get where this negativity is coming from all of a sudden.

Is it because they didn't select the diverse group of primordial dwarves that the analytics community had anointed before the draft started?

I'll take my primordial dwarves than your obtuse oafs.

 

[TBLeafer]

Wow, all this over committing a grand sum total of 2.5M AAV on UFA frenzy day, for a useful depth acquisition and the type of player Leafs fans used to love (Domi).

Remember past management?  This looks quite a bit different to me.

The best stayed with his team.  The rebuild continues on unhindered.  Management didn't overspend for a consolation prize.  They addressed an area of NEED according to them.

Enjoy your Summer Leafs fans and don't worry... be happy. 

 

[Al14]

Wow, all this over committing a grand sum total of 2.5M AAV on UFA frenzy day, for a useful depth acquisition and the type of player Leafs fans used to love (Domi).

Remember past management?  This looks quite a bit different to me.

The best stayed with his team.  The rebuild continues on unhindered.  Management didn't overspend for a consolation prize.  They addressed an area of NEED according to them.

Enjoy your Summer Leafs fans and don't worry... be happy.

Exactly, if we have faith in management, and, for the most part, most of us do, then, be happy that Matt Martin was a target we successfully hit!

 

[Highlander]

Don Cherry just came out and said that Martin will be the fan favourite by the end of next season and that no one is going to mix with the young speedsters. 

 

[Kin]

Don Cherry just came out and said that Martin will be the fan favourite by the end of next season and that no one is going to mix with the young speedsters.

Further establishing himself as out of touch and irrelevant. It's not like the Leafs haven't had any fist-throwers since Domi. Nobody really loved Orr or McLaren, in fact, they were pretty widely acknowledged as being detrimental to the team(and, shockingly, other teams still hit our skill players).

 

[Kin]

I think an issue here is that there's two separate discussions that are largely unrelated. There's the question of the cap, which I think is pretty simple. Martin's not very good value(and his contract is longer than ideal) but his contract is small enough that it doesn't really matter. If the Leafs wanted to make some cap space, they could.

The second one is the thornier one of whether or not you think Martin is a good addition to the team. We can go back and forth on that but ultimately I probably come down on being slightly positive on it. I reject some of the analytical thinking on hits(every player, no matter how good, plays without the puck for a good percentage of the game) and think that a crashing 4th line can have some real value, even if I think the argument about the utility of fighting as a deterrent is entirely wrong.

Getting back to the cap though, I get that the existence of the cap has turned us all into accountants and there's no disputing that the cap matters and you need to be smart with your contracts. That said, at this point in where the Leafs are they don't need to be sweating every cap dollar. Realistically they won't need to for 6-7 years.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Also, can we stop with the false narrative that 4th liners prevent people from getting hit hard angle.  It's not remotely true.

Who said anything about prevention.  I'm talking about consequences.

Didn't Backes just sign in Boston?  Do you like having Martin on your team if Backes starts after Kadri again?

No, because they are irrelevant.  Backes went after Kadri because Kadri was on the ice against him.  Last time I checked Backes doens't play on the 4th line.  This notion that players suddenly get scared and stop playing physical is what is ridiculous.

How is it irrelevant?  On the ice or in the stands?  How many years did you play hockey at a level that had fighting?  Dave Poulin actually addressed yesterday regarding when he played with tough guys on the Flyers and Bruins.

So are you telling me that you have never seen a coach juggle his lines to add some meat on a particular line mid game at any level of hockey including the NHL?  Have you not seen the documentaries where players state they would lie awake at night thinking of who was on the other teams lineup the next day?

If you are saying a team will do stupid stuff even if there is a tough guy on the other team then I agree.  Probert and Boogaard maybe was a bit of a real deterrent but that's about it as long as I have been watching.  From the TV set I have seen Brian Boyle get intimidated after being an idiot with a young Karlsson when playing for NYR against Ottawa in the playoffs (courtesy of Carkner, Zonopka and Neil), Chicago's Brian Bickell against Boston in the Finals when he got stupid that took him out of his effectiveness the rest of the series (courtesy of Chara, Thornton and Lucic directly confronting him) and I was watching the game when Phaneuf was in the league only a few years and was intimidated by Scott 'The Sheriff' Parker after throwing a borderline hit.  Phaneuf actually shrunk back in the confrontation and was ineffective the rest of the time.

I would prefer that goons and idiots had their teams severely punished with fines and lost draft picks to keep them out of the lineups but I suspect the leagues will continue to only make the perpetrators sit a few games while the cheap shotted player sits in a dark room or in therapy for an undetermined length of time.

In the end though you need to ask Savard how he was saved from the concussions by playing on the toughest team in hockey at the time. 

I just hate that vigilante justice is needed at all in hockey.  Old school fighting in the heat of the moment is actually OK in my books.  Staged fighting needs to go.  Payback should NEVER be needed IMO.  If the penalties were appropriate then players should be deterred from the elbow to Johnson's head in the Marlies playoffs.

How's that for being all over the map....argghh.

 

[herman]

Looking at 4th liners, Martin brings in some of the things I'd value from that spot in the lineup: neutralizing the opposing offence in limited minutes, shaking loose pucks on the forecheck. Value-prop to the cap aside, I'm curious to see how he performs under Babcock, who generally gets good mileage from muckers.

Ideally, he'd be more pest than fighter and help draw more PP time for the likes of Nylander, Matthews, and Marner.

 

[dappleganger]

Don Cherry just came out and said that Martin will be the fan favourite by the end of next season and that no one is going to mix with the young speedsters.

Further establishing himself as out of touch and irrelevant. It's not like the Leafs haven't had any fist-throwers since Domi. Nobody really loved Orr or McLaren, in fact, they were pretty widely acknowledged as being detrimental to the team(and, shockingly, other teams still hit our skill players).

I liked that Mike Brown kid when the Leafs had him.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Don Cherry just came out and said that Martin will be the fan favourite by the end of next season and that no one is going to mix with the young speedsters.

Further establishing himself as out of touch and irrelevant. It's not like the Leafs haven't had any fist-throwers since Domi. Nobody really loved Orr or McLaren, in fact, they were pretty widely acknowledged as being detrimental to the team(and, shockingly, other teams still hit our skill players).

I liked that Mike Brown kid when the Leafs had him.

Funny you mention him because I liked him as well.  He was a good skater.  I find that odd that he got traded shortly after Carlyle arrived in Anaheim and again shortly after Carlyle arrived in Toronto.  I could be wrong on that though.

 

[herman]

http://theleafsnation.com/2016/7/3/11-things-to-consider-about-matt-martin

It's actually 12 things. I've highlighted the ones that jumped out to me.

The first thing that many will point out to you is Martin's shot suppression wizardry. In his past five years, his Relative Attempts-Against Per 60 minutes have been -1.96, -3.74, 3.26, -6.29, and -4.43. That's four of five seasons where the team has given up fewer shots with him on the ice than without him.

[...]

I'm curious as to how all of these stats are affected by playing on the "best fourth line in history", though. While there are some elite two-way forwards in the top of the shot suppression class, there are a staggering amount of depth players there too. Rich Clune's Relative CA60 in the past five years is better than Pavel Datsyuk and Joe Thornton. Patrick Kaleta, Patrick Bordeleau, and Chris Neil are near the top of the list as well. Analytics used to identify players like Colton Orr and Paul Bissonette as top-end shot suppressors. There's a case to be made that sometimes, gritty players play against other gritty players and use up a lot of their ice time in shifts were both teams are doing a lot of hitting, yapping, and shoving, and not a lot of trying to score. If your two-way game is defined around sending a message to another message sender, you're not a Selke candidate.

[...]

I also feel that Martin could benefit the team not so much in protecting the young players, but in teaching them. Contrary to popular belief, toughness can be taught much easier than skill if you get to the player young enough. The Marlies are a good example of this: Nikita Soshnikov came into the season as an unassuming skilled forward. A few months with Rich Clune turned a kid who barely spoke English into a pest with puck skills when he got to the NHL. I don't think having Matt Martin is going to protect William Nylander and Mitch Marner very much, but he could be useful in making them be able to fend for themselves.

[...]

[Four] years seems like an insane amount of time to commit to a player like Martin. Yes, Andrew Ladd is somehow a 7-year man, and this still isn't in David Clarkson territory, but it's a lot of commitment to a player that's not going to be a part of your core. Presently, Martin joins Nazem Kadri, Jake Gardiner, Morgan Rielly, Frederik Andersen, Mitch Marner, and Auston Matthews as the only roster players who will enter the season with a contract commitment for 2018/19. Does that not sound a little off?

Could he be our next Komarov?

 

[Highlander]

http://theleafsnation.com/2016/7/3/11-things-to-consider-about-matt-martin

It's actually 12 things. I've highlighted the ones that jumped out to me.

The first thing that many will point out to you is Martin's shot suppression wizardry. In his past five years, his Relative Attempts-Against Per 60 minutes have been -1.96, -3.74, 3.26, -6.29, and -4.43. That's four of five seasons where the team has given up fewer shots with him on the ice than without him.

[...]

I'm curious as to how all of these stats are affected by playing on the "best fourth line in history", though. While there are some elite two-way forwards in the top of the shot suppression class, there are a staggering amount of depth players there too. Rich Clune's Relative CA60 in the past five years is better than Pavel Datsyuk and Joe Thornton. Patrick Kaleta, Patrick Bordeleau, and Chris Neil are near the top of the list as well. Analytics used to identify players like Colton Orr and Paul Bissonette as top-end shot suppressors. There's a case to be made that sometimes, gritty players play against other gritty players and use up a lot of their ice time in shifts were both teams are doing a lot of hitting, yapping, and shoving, and not a lot of trying to score. If your two-way game is defined around sending a message to another message sender, you're not a Selke candidate.

[...]

I also feel that Martin could benefit the team not so much in protecting the young players, but in teaching them. Contrary to popular belief, toughness can be taught much easier than skill if you get to the player young enough. The Marlies are a good example of this: Nikita Soshnikov came into the season as an unassuming skilled forward. A few months with Rich Clune turned a kid who barely spoke English into a pest with puck skills when he got to the NHL. I don't think having Matt Martin is going to protect William Nylander and Mitch Marner very much, but he could be useful in making them be able to fend for themselves.

[...]

[Four] years seems like an insane amount of time to commit to a player like Martin. Yes, Andrew Ladd is somehow a 7-year man, and this still isn't in David Clarkson territory, but it's a lot of commitment to a player that's not going to be a part of your core. Presently, Martin joins Nazem Kadri, Jake Gardiner, Morgan Rielly, Frederik Andersen, Mitch Marner, and Auston Matthews as the only roster players who will enter the season with a contract commitment for 2018/19. Does that not sound a little off?

Could he be our next Komarov?

Lets hope so Herman, as the guys over at PPP seem to hate this deal a lot.  Hopefully he will be a crowd pleaser like Komarov.  I really don't see the problem having a guy who can stand up for our younger guys if need be and can play a decent 4th role. Led the league in hits the last 5 years.  Sounds like the truculence that Burke could never really find.

 

[ZBBM]

This signing was troubling to me, but because of its alliterative potential I've made my peace with it.

How about: The Candy Line (all M&Ms) ?

Matt Martin / Mauston Matthews / Milan Michalek (or Mitch)

(with Marincin skating on D)

I'm sure Matthews will go along for the sake of the team.

 

[TBLeafer]

Matt Martin is the best at hitting in the league.  So there's another best in the league.

Martin is best at hitting.

Kadri is best at drawing penalties.

Bernier is best at African history. 

 

[Highlander]

Bernier was set straight after watching Invictus. Now he knows that Matt Damon is Nelson Mandela