Mitch Marner

[Coco-puffs]

This is basically precisely why I don't think trading JVR would really hurt the team as much as people think it will. The JVR-Bozak duo will ALWAYS be a trainwreck defensively. It's basically been like for years. If Babs can't fix it at this point then there's really no hope for them in their own end. But there's nowhere else to put those two. JVR isn't going to play with Matthews because of Hyman, and he isn't going to play with Kadri because that's a shutdown unit. So we'll always be stuck with the two of them together until one of them leaves.

Trade JVR, move Komarov back to the left side with Bozak and Marner, and bump Brown to Kadri's line, and you still have arguably one of the best top-9 forward groups in the league.

At 5v5, I completely agree. I don't think we would miss JvR that much- what we lose offensively we probably gain back defensively.  On the PP, he's one of the best net front presences in the league though.

EDIT.  Adding a comment regarding lineup without JvR:

Komarov is our best defensive forward, so I don't particularily like moving him to what would probably be our sheltered third line.  Instead:

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Komarov-Kadri-Brown
Marleau-Bozak-Marner
Martin-Moore/Fehr-Leivo

(Martin is only in because I'm being realistic about Babcock's lineup decisions)

 

[CarltonTheBear]

EDIT.  Adding a comment regarding lineup without JvR:

Komarov is our best defensive forward, so I don't particularily like moving him to what would probably be our sheltered third line.  Instead:

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Komarov-Kadri-Brown
Marleau-Bozak-Marner
Martin-Moore/Fehr-Leivo

(Martin is only in because I'm being realistic about Babcock's lineup decisions)

Yeah, that's probably the better way to go actually. Marleau and Marner's speed would give 3rd pairing defencemen fits all season long.

 

[Kin]

I think he is expected to drive that line. I recall Babcock saying those words at some point last year .

I can't speak to what Babcock may have said at some point last year but I think the team's actions don't really indicate that as being the truth. I think that at least partly explains why they've been reluctant to move on from JVR and Bozak. JVR and Bozak together can generate enough offense that for it to be a productive line you don't really need someone as talented as Marner and it looks like that comfort it setting in to some extent.

 

[Kin]

I think this is mental rather than mono, for Marner. And I also think it's the opposite of deferential, but amounts to the same appearance of indecisiveness.

He said he's been trying to shoot more, which basically translates to: Marner's not playing his usual game. What that amounts to on the ice, and you can see this, is an extra second or so of decision-making that previously was not there, which means defenders and goalies are have that extra bit of time to square him up or box him out.

I don't think of deference in a hockey sense being about shooting vs. passing for the most part. Nick Backstrom isn't being deferential to Ovechkin when he's setting him up, that's maximizing their respective skillsets. Likewise Gretzky behind the net looking for the perfect set-up opportunity was very much in control of the situation and imposing his own style on his team.

What I've seen from Marner isn't about shooting more or less but rather about being reactive to what other guys are doing around him as opposed to making things happen. Remember one of the reasons we said last year that Matthews/Marner would be a bad match was because both guys seemed to thrive with the puck on their sticks.

Admittedly this is just a general sense I'm getting without any help from beat reporters and press releases but I do think there's a case to be made that this is a by-product of keeping that line together.

 

[herman]

I don't think of deference in a hockey sense being about shooting vs. passing for the most part. Nick Backstrom isn't being deferential to Ovechkin when he's setting him up, that's maximizing their respective skillsets. Likewise Gretzky behind the net looking for the perfect set-up opportunity was very much in control of the situation and imposing his own style on his team.

What I've seen from Marner isn't about shooting more or less but rather about being reactive to what other guys are doing around him as opposed to making things happen. Remember one of the reasons we said last year that Matthews/Marner would be a bad match was because both guys seemed to thrive with the puck on their sticks.

Admittedly this is just a general sense I'm getting without any help from beat reporters and press releases but I do think there's a case to be made that this is a by-product of keeping that line together.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by deferential. In light of that, I can see what you mean.

In the past, when Marner has slumped, they've been the result of confidence issues. I think you're spot on in calling him reactive, rather than imposing his game and dictating his pace.

 

[ZBBM]

Marner will be fine as soon as the first snow falls.

 

[ZBBM]

I don't think of deference in a hockey sense being about shooting vs. passing for the most part. Nick Backstrom isn't being deferential to Ovechkin when he's setting him up, that's maximizing their respective skillsets. Likewise Gretzky behind the net looking for the perfect set-up opportunity was very much in control of the situation and imposing his own style on his team.

What I've seen from Marner isn't about shooting more or less but rather about being reactive to what other guys are doing around him as opposed to making things happen. Remember one of the reasons we said last year that Matthews/Marner would be a bad match was because both guys seemed to thrive with the puck on their sticks.

Admittedly this is just a general sense I'm getting without any help from beat reporters and press releases but I do think there's a case to be made that this is a by-product of keeping that line together.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by deferential. In light of that, I can see what you mean.

In the past, when Marner has slumped, they've been the result of confidence issues. I think you're spot on in calling him reactive, rather than imposing his game and dictating his pace.

Whatever it is, he's definitely in a slump right now. 

 

[TML fan]

I'd hate to see Marner take a step backwards this year. It will raise questions, no doubt, but I think a little bit of regression was bound to happen to such a young team. You don't want to see it from a guy like Marner because a lot of this team's success is riding on him, but we may be forced to be more patient than we'd like based on the relative success of last season.

It's still early. It may be nothing. If he's good enough like we all (or mostly) think he is, he will bounce back.

 

[KadriFan]

I think he will be playing center before long. 

 

[Bullfrog]

He's 20 years old and it's eight games into the season. I'm not too concerned at this point.

It is nice to see Babcock's been giving him some opportunities with other scorers lately (after PK shifts, etc.)

 

[herman]

Causes for concern:
https://theathletic.com/133419/2017/10/20/bourne-has-mitch-marner-been-bad-enough-defensively-to-deserve-the-fourth-line-yes/

Why has Marner looked off in the early goings?

Not going to spoil the article, but the reasons are all mental/confidence related and definitely fixable.

https://theathletic.com/136197/2017/10/24/mitch-marner-shows-hes-ready-to-move-higher-in-the-leafs-lineup/

We saw a more confident and effective Marner last night against the Kings, and it's infecting everyone around him (Martin, Moore).

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/Marner93/status/922913070745190400

They are about as Father/Son (age-wise) as Amy Poehler and Rachel McAdams were Mother/Daughter.

 

[Frank E]

There's definitely a lot of glue there with Martin and the younger guys...I wonder how much of it translates into a better hockey club with Martin in lineup vs. out, but still, there's obviously a lot of love there.

 

[herman]

Martin is serviceable. I don't like that we felt we needed him and his role, or his contract, or that he is occupying a spot that would likely be better served by a more skilled player (Leivo, Rychel, Kapanen, et al.), or that his presence sort of limits the style of the 4th line unless it is dragged up.

I am okay that the spot being designated for him is the lowest impact position.

I'm thrilled that he's not a grumpy cat and that everybody likes him and appreciates him. I think he's got more to his game than what he showed last season (adjusting to a new team and city), and I think the more time he spends with the skilled players and skills coaches in practice, the more effective he can be at puck separation (no one cares about fighting).

 

[slapshot]

Martin is like an insurance policy, something you don't think you need until you actually do. Granted the league has changed, tough guys have to be able to actually play, and I think Martin is fine. He takes his man, he's not stupid with the puck (makes simple plays) and is not a liability defensively. When the going gets tough in playoff time, it will be very useful to have that insurance policy. Though it's no longer a fighting league, teams will still exploit talented players by hammering them if they think there is no one there to keep them in check, to be accountable to. With all the firepower the Leafs have, I think we can afford one spot for that kind of insurance. Plus when his sticks up for his teammates it has a positive reaction for the team up on the bench.

 

[Kin]

That is by far the strangest view I've ever seen on insurance policies.

 

[Kin]

Although, if you think about it, enforcers are a little bit like insurance policies. They don't actually prevent anything bad from happening and getting compensation when they do tends to be a more complicated process than advertised.

 

[Arn]

That is by far the strangest view I've ever seen on insurance policies.

I dunno. I'd rank it a close second behind Trump

 

[herman]

Martin is like an insurance policy, something you don't think you need until you actually do. Granted the league has changed, tough guys have to be able to actually play, and I think Martin is fine. He takes his man, he's not stupid with the puck (makes simple plays) and is not a liability defensively. When the going gets tough in playoff time, it will be very useful to have that insurance policy. Though it's no longer a fighting league, teams will still exploit talented players by hammering them if they think there is no one there to keep them in check, to be accountable to. With all the firepower the Leafs have, I think we can afford one spot for that kind of insurance. Plus when his sticks up for his teammates it has a positive reaction for the team up on the bench.

You just described the player we already had dedicated to this role who is even more effective: Komarov.

 

[disco]

Martin is like an insurance policy, something you don't think you need until you actually do. Granted the league has changed, tough guys have to be able to actually play, and I think Martin is fine. He takes his man, he's not stupid with the puck (makes simple plays) and is not a liability defensively. When the going gets tough in playoff time, it will be very useful to have that insurance policy. Though it's no longer a fighting league, teams will still exploit talented players by hammering them if they think there is no one there to keep them in check, to be accountable to. With all the firepower the Leafs have, I think we can afford one spot for that kind of insurance. Plus when his sticks up for his teammates it has a positive reaction for the team up on the bench.

I agree, it's an extra layer of accountability for your opponents when you have superstars. Evidently Babcock sees the value in having that over the minor skill trade-off between a serviceable goon and different twelfth forward.