Of Nonis, Babcock & who the heck is going to be running this asylum on draft day

[LuncheonMeat]

We traded up to get Tyler Biggs and we pass? twice on Gallagher?

No one in the scouting staff should be safe after that.

Those are two different drafts. Biggs was 2011. Gallagher was taken in 2010 and technically the Leafs "passed" on him more than twice.

And should every team in the league fire their scouting staff? Because Gallagher was a 5th round pick. Hell, Montreal had two 4th round picks and passed on him with both.

This was another typical loudmouth Glenn Healy moment from the other night.  Scoffing at the Leafs drafting on either side of Gallagher, and missing out on him.  Just like 28 other clubs, yet the Leafs are this accursed team who can't do anything right. 

 

[Redleaf]

u
Yeah, but Damphouse, Iafrate and Courtnall didn't really hit their peaks until they got out of Toronto.  Was it because they left, or was it because the Leafs weren't patient, it's hard to say.  I put Clark in that special category.  He was injured a lot early on, and he really hit his stride once Gilmour got here, and that is when the culture started to change.  They brought an outside winner in, and people started to believe that it was possible.  I think people should be prepared for when Kessel leaves the Leafs and ends up tearing up the league goal scoring wise once he is in a different environment. 

I agree that this is all quite new, but look at some of the posts on this site alone about it being a fast turnaround.  In order to do this right, it can't be a fast turnaround.  It has to be built systemically, and that will take time.  I hope that it works out, but I have my doubts that the euphoria that people are feeling right now that "Yes the Leafs are going to do it the right way" is going to last through two more hellishly bad seasons.  Plus, if upper management makes a mistake, it's going to be "Here we go again" which will snowball.

Shanahan has to get these replacements for the firings that he conducted today right.  He can't make a mistake.  It is crucial that as this goes forward, the right people are put in to the proper places.  You can say that that is a given, but as we have seen from the Leafs in the past, they are bad at making these sorts of decisions, and we have no past experience with Shanahan to go on to see if he will get it right.

All the players mentioned had excellent years in Leaf uniforms. They may have had career seasons elsewhere, but, they developed well on a Leafs' team that was rife with losing. The point here is that a losing environment is not an issue when there are no expectations. It's an environment of failure that can cause issues, and, without any real expectations of success, that failure won't be an issue. For the next few seasons, success for the Leafs won't be measured in wins and losses, but rather in progress and development.

Right, but there is a giant X factor here. You've already mentioned it. This is uncharted territory for Leafs fans, the media, and the young group of players that will fill out most of the roster in the next few years.

No one knows how people will react to a slow agonizing rebuild. For sensible fans, it won't be a problem, but for the media and casual fans who follow the team by reading the headlines, and watching the odd game, it could turn sour very quickly.

 

[bustaheims]

Right, but there is a giant X factor here. You've already mentioned it. This is uncharted territory for Leafs fans, the media, and the young group of players that will fill out most of the roster in the next few years.

No one knows how people will react to a slow agonizing rebuild. For sensible fans, it won't be a problem, but for the media and casual fans who follow the team by reading the headlines, and watching the odd game, it could turn sour very quickly.

It's only agonizing to people who are impatient. That's mostly a fan issue, really. What the media really comments on is whether or not the team is successful on the path they've made it appear they want to be on. Up until now, that path has been one where management seemed to believe they could be competitive and make the playoffs. They obviously failed there and, rightfully, the media let them have it. With the team clearly heading down the path of a rebuild, if media members want to be taken seriously, they're going to have to adjust their POV accordingly. If not, they'll look really irrelevant to just about everyone - including casual fans, who, for the most part, understand that rebuilding means that the team isn't going to be good for at least a couple more seasons. If the rebuild drags on (which means it hasn't been particularly successful), then, yes, we could be looking at a potentially harmful environment, but, at that point, there would have been enough other issues that would have poisoned the well - like, you know, failure - that the media and the casual fans will remain largely a non-factor.

 

[skrackle]

u
Yeah, but Damphouse, Iafrate and Courtnall didn't really hit their peaks until they got out of Toronto.  Was it because they left, or was it because the Leafs weren't patient, it's hard to say.  I put Clark in that special category.  He was injured a lot early on, and he really hit his stride once Gilmour got here, and that is when the culture started to change.  They brought an outside winner in, and people started to believe that it was possible.  I think people should be prepared for when Kessel leaves the Leafs and ends up tearing up the league goal scoring wise once he is in a different environment. 

I agree that this is all quite new, but look at some of the posts on this site alone about it being a fast turnaround.  In order to do this right, it can't be a fast turnaround.  It has to be built systemically, and that will take time.  I hope that it works out, but I have my doubts that the euphoria that people are feeling right now that "Yes the Leafs are going to do it the right way" is going to last through two more hellishly bad seasons.  Plus, if upper management makes a mistake, it's going to be "Here we go again" which will snowball.

Shanahan has to get these replacements for the firings that he conducted today right.  He can't make a mistake.  It is crucial that as this goes forward, the right people are put in to the proper places.  You can say that that is a given, but as we have seen from the Leafs in the past, they are bad at making these sorts of decisions, and we have no past experience with Shanahan to go on to see if he will get it right.

All the players mentioned had excellent years in Leaf uniforms. They may have had career seasons elsewhere, but, they developed well on a Leafs' team that was rife with losing. The point here is that a losing environment is not an issue when there are no expectations. It's an environment of failure that can cause issues, and, without any real expectations of success, that failure won't be an issue. For the next few seasons, success for the Leafs won't be measured in wins and losses, but rather in progress and development.

Right, but there is a giant X factor here. You've already mentioned it. This is uncharted territory for Leafs fans, the media, and the young group of players that will fill out most of the roster in the next few years.

No one knows how people will react to a slow agonizing rebuild. For sensible fans, it won't be a problem, but for the media and casual fans who follow the team by reading the headlines, and watching the odd game, it could turn sour very quickly.

The media will always be looking to stir the pot. It's just multiplied by 10 or more in Toronto. That will be part of the challenge facing the new regime. I think the 'uncharted territory' factor of a true rebuild, unprecedented in Leaf history, can be a selling point to the media and the fans.

As for the casual fans who don't get it? They'll come around once the team starts winning. There's no point in catering to the lowest common denominator, especially in the early stages of the process. 

 

[Redleaf]

Right, but there is a giant X factor here. You've already mentioned it. This is uncharted territory for Leafs fans, the media, and the young group of players that will fill out most of the roster in the next few years.

No one knows how people will react to a slow agonizing rebuild. For sensible fans, it won't be a problem, but for the media and casual fans who follow the team by reading the headlines, and watching the odd game, it could turn sour very quickly.

It's only agonizing to people who are impatient. That's mostly a fan issue, really. What the media really comments on is whether or not the team is successful on the path they've made it appear they want to be on. Up until now, that path has been one where management seemed to believe they could be competitive and make the playoffs. They obviously failed there and, rightfully, the media let them have it. With the team clearly heading down the path of a rebuild, if media members want to be taken seriously, they're going to have to adjust their POV accordingly. If not, they'll look really irrelevant to just about everyone - including casual fans, who, for the most part, understand that rebuilding means that the team isn't going to be good for at least a couple more seasons. If the rebuild drags on (which means it hasn't been particularly successful), then, yes, we could be looking at a potentially harmful environment, but, at that point, there would have been enough other issues that would have poisoned the well - like, you know, failure - that the media and the casual fans will remain largely a non-factor.

That all makes perfect sense to me. Im just not sure we're in the majority of fans who are willing to continue to be patient for another 3-4 years while this team rebuilds. When fans start to turn their backs in numbers, I would guess there is some sort of a snowball effect that follows. I don't know that to be the case, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out as a possibilty.

 

[bustaheims]

That all makes perfect sense to me. Im just not sure we're in the majority of fans who are willing to continue to be patient for another 3-4 years while this team rebuilds. When fans start to turn their backs in numbers, I would guess there is some sort of a snowball effect that follows. I don't know that to be the case, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out as a possibilty.

I think the fan base is more aware of the state of the team than they're often given credit for. Yes, there's a very vocal group that seems completely out to lunch, but, from my experience, they're a small minority.

 

[rdowdall]

Yeah, but Damphouse, Iafrate and Courtnall didn't really hit their peaks until they got out of Toronto.  Was it because they left, or was it because the Leafs weren't patient, it's hard to say.  I put Clark in that special category.  He was injured a lot early on, and he really hit his stride once Gilmour got here, and that is when the culture started to change.  They brought an outside winner in, and people started to believe that it was possible.  I think people should be prepared for when Kessel leaves the Leafs and ends up tearing up the league goal scoring wise once he is in a different environment. 

I agree that this is all quite new, but look at some of the posts on this site alone about it being a fast turnaround.  In order to do this right, it can't be a fast turnaround.  It has to be built systemically, and that will take time.  I hope that it works out, but I have my doubts that the euphoria that people are feeling right now that "Yes the Leafs are going to do it the right way" is going to last through two more hellishly bad seasons.  Plus, if upper management makes a mistake, it's going to be "Here we go again" which will snowball.

Shanahan has to get these replacements for the firings that he conducted today right.  He can't make a mistake.  It is crucial that as this goes forward, the right people are put in to the proper places.  You can say that that is a given, but as we have seen from the Leafs in the past, they are bad at making these sorts of decisions, and we have no past experience with Shanahan to go on to see if he will get it right.

All the players mentioned had excellent years in Leaf uniforms. They may have had career seasons elsewhere, but, they developed well on a Leafs' team that was rife with losing. The point here is that a losing environment is not an issue when there are no expectations. It's an environment of failure that can cause issues, and, without any real expectations of success, that failure won't be an issue. For the next few seasons, success for the Leafs won't be measured in wins and losses, but rather in progress and development.

Sure and those are reasonable expectations to fans like you, Nik, and CW.  But you have to remember there are a lot of fans that aren't in your stratosphere when it comes to being able to see the logical path that a team is trying to take.  You are completely right, if the expectation is that it is a growing and learning process, then the team will get a pass as long as it is showing development. 

The problem is setting that as the expectation and then sticking to it.  Look at the 80's.  The Leafs did sort of look like the path that they were on was in the vein of keeping their draft picks and building up and amassing talent.  Then they hired an idiot for a coach who wanted John Kordic because the team wasn't tough enough. 

I mean think about the names that you threw out.  As you said that was quite the amassing of some young talent...but in the end the only one who was left was Clark.  They moved all the others out.  And they moved them out because they felt they needed to build a winner quicker.

I agree wholeheartedly with your premise.  I lack faith in the ability to execute it in Toronto successfully because losing is seen as failure.  Therefore, the team has to be very careful in how they approach bringing their young talent along, because as they bring them along, if they expose them to the environment that is Toronto, it could ruin them.  Look at what happened when Kadri was sent down.  Pictures of him in a baby bonnet were on the covers of newspapers.  And now the media is on the kid about everything and the team is publicly tearing him down for his shortcomings.  Most of us now question what his ceiling really is.  When he was drafted he was seen as a really good prospect, almost elite. 

It makes me wonder if getting to draft McDavid would be a blessing or a curse.

 

[cw]

Yeah, but Damphouse, Iafrate and Courtnall didn't really hit their peaks until they got out of Toronto.  Was it because they left, or was it because the Leafs weren't patient, it's hard to say.  I put Clark in that special category.  He was injured a lot early on, and he really hit his stride once Gilmour got here, and that is when the culture started to change.  They brought an outside winner in, and people started to believe that it was possible.  I think people should be prepared for when Kessel leaves the Leafs and ends up tearing up the league goal scoring wise once he is in a different environment. 

I agree that this is all quite new, but look at some of the posts on this site alone about it being a fast turnaround.  In order to do this right, it can't be a fast turnaround.  It has to be built systemically, and that will take time.  I hope that it works out, but I have my doubts that the euphoria that people are feeling right now that "Yes the Leafs are going to do it the right way" is going to last through two more hellishly bad seasons.  Plus, if upper management makes a mistake, it's going to be "Here we go again" which will snowball.

Shanahan has to get these replacements for the firings that he conducted today right.  He can't make a mistake.  It is crucial that as this goes forward, the right people are put in to the proper places.  You can say that that is a given, but as we have seen from the Leafs in the past, they are bad at making these sorts of decisions, and we have no past experience with Shanahan to go on to see if he will get it right.

All the players mentioned had excellent years in Leaf uniforms. They may have had career seasons elsewhere, but, they developed well on a Leafs' team that was rife with losing. The point here is that a losing environment is not an issue when there are no expectations. It's an environment of failure that can cause issues, and, without any real expectations of success, that failure won't be an issue. For the next few seasons, success for the Leafs won't be measured in wins and losses, but rather in progress and development.

Sure and those are reasonable expectations to fans like you, Nik, and CW.  But you have to remember there are a lot of fans that aren't in your stratosphere when it comes to being able to see the logical path that a team is trying to take.  You are completely right, if the expectation is that it is a growing and learning process, then the team will get a pass as long as it is showing development. 

The problem is setting that as the expectation and then sticking to it.  Look at the 80's.  The Leafs did sort of look like the path that they were on was in the vein of keeping their draft picks and building up and amassing talent.  Then they hired an idiot for a coach who wanted John Kordic because the team wasn't tough enough. 

I mean think about the names that you threw out.  As you said that was quite the amassing of some young talent...but in the end the only one who was left was Clark.  They moved all the others out.  And they moved them out because they felt they needed to build a winner quicker.

I agree wholeheartedly with your premise.  I lack faith in the ability to execute it in Toronto successfully because losing is seen as failure.  Therefore, the team has to be very careful in how they approach bringing their young talent along, because as they bring them along, if they expose them to the environment that is Toronto, it could ruin them.  Look at what happened when Kadri was sent down.  Pictures of him in a baby bonnet were on the covers of newspapers.  And now the media is on the kid about everything and the team is publicly tearing him down for his shortcomings.  Most of us now question what his ceiling really is.  When he was drafted he was seen as a really good prospect, almost elite. 

It makes me wonder if getting to draft McDavid would be a blessing or a curse.

I have some incomplete mixed feelings in response.

On one hand, there is a pretty long history of a number of prospects having a tough time in this media environment. My hope this time is they'll give them more time in the minors than they have in the past.

On the other hand, I haven't seen this franchise really try to do  something like this - true rebuild. Shanahan staying out of the GM chair seems good in that he can oversee maybe more than one GM while this takes place.

I also think the media and fans are going to be a little more patient this time around.

From that, it might appeal to a prospective GM if they can get autonomy worked out with Shanahan because there's a pretty good chance they'll get at least 5 years here to try to do it right with deep pockets behind them. Ir's a better quality opportunity than "normal" being offered here.

Those points don't answer everything you've said - just some thoughts. It does feel different this time around.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I wonder what odds you'd get on Dubas as next GM and Keefe as next coach.

 

[cw]

I wonder what odds you'd get on Dubas as next GM and Keefe as next coach.

Decent odds that he's a GM in five years or so. Slim odds now.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I wonder what odds you'd get on Dubas as next GM and Keefe as next coach.

If one of them are going to get it my odds would be on Hunter.

 

[moon111]

In the 80's, they rushed allot of players in.  They never developed their game and it showed.  Any G.M. coming in, is going to be put through the ringer by the fans and media, despite doing what needs to be done.

 

[Redleaf]

Yeah, but Damphouse, Iafrate and Courtnall didn't really hit their peaks until they got out of Toronto.  Was it because they left, or was it because the Leafs weren't patient, it's hard to say.  I put Clark in that special category.  He was injured a lot early on, and he really hit his stride once Gilmour got here, and that is when the culture started to change.  They brought an outside winner in, and people started to believe that it was possible.  I think people should be prepared for when Kessel leaves the Leafs and ends up tearing up the league goal scoring wise once he is in a different environment. 

I agree that this is all quite new, but look at some of the posts on this site alone about it being a fast turnaround.  In order to do this right, it can't be a fast turnaround.  It has to be built systemically, and that will take time.  I hope that it works out, but I have my doubts that the euphoria that people are feeling right now that "Yes the Leafs are going to do it the right way" is going to last through two more hellishly bad seasons.  Plus, if upper management makes a mistake, it's going to be "Here we go again" which will snowball.

Shanahan has to get these replacements for the firings that he conducted today right.  He can't make a mistake.  It is crucial that as this goes forward, the right people are put in to the proper places.  You can say that that is a given, but as we have seen from the Leafs in the past, they are bad at making these sorts of decisions, and we have no past experience with Shanahan to go on to see if he will get it right.

All the players mentioned had excellent years in Leaf uniforms. They may have had career seasons elsewhere, but, they developed well on a Leafs' team that was rife with losing. The point here is that a losing environment is not an issue when there are no expectations. It's an environment of failure that can cause issues, and, without any real expectations of success, that failure won't be an issue. For the next few seasons, success for the Leafs won't be measured in wins and losses, but rather in progress and development.

Sure and those are reasonable expectations to fans like you, Nik, and CW.  But you have to remember there are a lot of fans that aren't in your stratosphere when it comes to being able to see the logical path that a team is trying to take.  You are completely right, if the expectation is that it is a growing and learning process, then the team will get a pass as long as it is showing development. 

The problem is setting that as the expectation and then sticking to it.  Look at the 80's.  The Leafs did sort of look like the path that they were on was in the vein of keeping their draft picks and building up and amassing talent.  Then they hired an idiot for a coach who wanted John Kordic because the team wasn't tough enough. 

I mean think about the names that you threw out.  As you said that was quite the amassing of some young talent...but in the end the only one who was left was Clark.  They moved all the others out.  And they moved them out because they felt they needed to build a winner quicker.

I agree wholeheartedly with your premise.  I lack faith in the ability to execute it in Toronto successfully because losing is seen as failure.  Therefore, the team has to be very careful in how they approach bringing their young talent along, because as they bring them along, if they expose them to the environment that is Toronto, it could ruin them.  Look at what happened when Kadri was sent down.  Pictures of him in a baby bonnet were on the covers of newspapers.  And now the media is on the kid about everything and the team is publicly tearing him down for his shortcomings.  Most of us now question what his ceiling really is.  When he was drafted he was seen as a really good prospect, almost elite. 

It makes me wonder if getting to draft McDavid would be a blessing or a curse.

I agree with this for the most part. I think McDavid could thrive anywhere at the game of hockey, so I don't think it would be a big problem for him as a Leaf, but I do see your point. I think the media in Toronto can make the down times much more dramatic, but the up times can be much more rewarding. Players with tons of confidence can override the lows, but ones that don't may never recover here. We've seen it first hand. Either way, I think McDavid could reverse the curse, if their really is one. 

 

[Madferret]

Dreger was on the radio a few days ago saying the Leafs needed to "renovate" rather than "rebuild". What that means I have no idea - but it remains to be seen if the media a) really gets it + b) will accept it. Like some of you pointed out its the media that you have to worry about - they really think they're bigger than the team in Toronto for some reason.

 

[Kin]

Sure and those are reasonable expectations to fans like you, Nik, and CW.  But you have to remember there are a lot of fans that aren't in your stratosphere when it comes to being able to see the logical path that a team is trying to take.  You are completely right, if the expectation is that it is a growing and learning process, then the team will get a pass as long as it is showing development. 

The problem is setting that as the expectation and then sticking to it.  Look at the 80's.  The Leafs did sort of look like the path that they were on was in the vein of keeping their draft picks and building up and amassing talent.  Then they hired an idiot for a coach who wanted John Kordic because the team wasn't tough enough. 

I mean think about the names that you threw out.  As you said that was quite the amassing of some young talent...but in the end the only one who was left was Clark.  They moved all the others out.  And they moved them out because they felt they needed to build a winner quicker.

I agree wholeheartedly with your premise.  I lack faith in the ability to execute it in Toronto successfully because losing is seen as failure.  Therefore, the team has to be very careful in how they approach bringing their young talent along, because as they bring them along, if they expose them to the environment that is Toronto, it could ruin them.  Look at what happened when Kadri was sent down.  Pictures of him in a baby bonnet were on the covers of newspapers.  And now the media is on the kid about everything and the team is publicly tearing him down for his shortcomings.  Most of us now question what his ceiling really is.  When he was drafted he was seen as a really good prospect, almost elite. 

It makes me wonder if getting to draft McDavid would be a blessing or a curse.

I think that absolves the real culprits for the team's shortcomings. It wasn't fans howling for change, it wasn't a critical media. It was ownership. A short-sighted, impatient ownership that was at various times driven by greed, complacency, stupidity and, at times, plain spite. They didn't bend to the will of newspaper columnists, they set their own lousy agendas.

Look at the Raptors. Look at Toronto FC. Are they crushed under the weight of media pressure? No. Are they any good? No. What's the common denominator there?

Look at the Lakers, look at the Red Sox. Is there a ton of media pressure there? Yes. Have they managed to be successful? Yes. Why? Almost universally they were described as having competent, focused ownership.

The Leafs in the 80's were owned by a lunatic. In the 90's by someone who couldn't fund the team. In the 2000's by a group that would have traded a win for a nickel. I don't know that the new group will be any different but there's promising signs at least by virtue of the fact that they've embraced what the others didn't. If they're end up the kind of people who would bend to the volume of the loudmouths of talk radio then the team's doomed regardless. That's not a reflection of the fans or of the media or of the pressure the two create. That's a reflection of the poor stewardship of the people who sign the checks.

 

[cw]

Ignoring a GM's opportunity and responsibility to shape his mandate with ownership, I don't deeply care what the owners mandate was. The GM can be reasonably judged on his performance.

Nonis most certainly didn't have a mandate to ice a .415 hockey team with very suspect character.

Committing a couple of hundred million in contracts for three plus years to a core this inept isn't what any owner had in mind. No way that is what they asked him to do. No way that is what he promised he would do.

There's nothing wrong with holding the GM accountable for that.

 

[Kin]

Sure. And Buffalo's 23-51-8 record proves Ted Nonis is a bad coach too.

But regardless ultimately hiring Nonis was another in the long, long line of terrible, shortsighted and failed decisions this team's ownership has made.

 

[L K]

Dreger was on the radio a few days ago saying the Leafs needed to "renovate" rather than "rebuild". What that means I have no idea - but it remains to be seen if the media a) really gets it + b) will accept it. Like some of you pointed out its the media that you have to worry about - they really think they're bigger than the team in Toronto for some reason.

Simple answer: They won't.

Longer answer:  For several years now the Toronto sports media has shown a willingness to become outright antagonistic and vitriolic with the sports teams.  They openly acknlowdge bias in their reporting and show no shame in it.  They have decided that they aren't reports anymore but are all commentators instead which gives them a freedom to say what they want without feeling obligated to back up what they say.

I honestly can't picture the media sitting idly by without a million and a half sarcastic articles written about how useless Kadri is playing on a line with Leivo and insert random UFA.  Or how the Leafs got abused in a difficult trade environment when trying to unload Phaneuf, Kessel, Bozak or Lupul. 

I don't expect to see a media that will be reasonable and patient when Connor Brown, William Nylander or Connor McDavid step into the Leafs lineup next year.  I fully expect them to create unrealistic expectations during training camp and then malign the players for not living up to them by mid-season. 

I expect a lot of ugliness over the next few years and I hope that the Leafs make the right move when hiring a coach who is going to step in front of it and protect the youth coming into the professional ranks.

Bottom line, those articles can hurt.  It's impossible for them not to,  even if you don't respect the person who writes them.

 

[louisstamos]

Can we have the word "Shanaplan" blocked by the swear filters or something please?

I know this was 3 pages ago but - yes.  This.  plz.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Can we have the word "Shanaplan" blocked by the swear filters or something please?

I know this was 3 pages ago but - yes.  This.  plz.

It would surely give me almost "Clarkson traded" levels of satisfaction should it happen.