Of Nonis, Babcock & who the heck is going to be running this asylum on draft day

[Highlander]

Ok, now no Shanaplan, Molten Orr or Freezer Mclaren..whats a guy to do? :-X

 

[Highlander]

Or can we refer to him as The Plan or Mr. Plan?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

What's wrong with Shanny?

 

[Highlander]

or Sunny Boy or Sonny Corleone? He has made more hits than a mobster

 

[CarltonTheBear]

or Sunny Boy or Sonny Corleone? He has made more hits than a mobster

Stop. Please.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Dreger was on the radio a few days ago saying the Leafs needed to "renovate" rather than "rebuild". What that means I have no idea - but it remains to be seen if the media a) really gets it + b) will accept it. Like some of you pointed out its the media that you have to worry about - they really think they're bigger than the team in Toronto for some reason.

Simple answer: They won't.

Longer answer:  For several years now the Toronto sports media has shown a willingness to become outright antagonistic and vitriolic with the sports teams.  They openly acknlowdge bias in their reporting and show no shame in it.  They have decided that they aren't reports anymore but are all commentators instead which gives them a freedom to say what they want without feeling obligated to back up what they say.

I honestly can't picture the media sitting idly by without a million and a half sarcastic articles written about how useless Kadri is playing on a line with Leivo and insert random UFA.  Or how the Leafs got abused in a difficult trade environment when trying to unload Phaneuf, Kessel, Bozak or Lupul. 

I don't expect to see a media that will be reasonable and patient when Connor Brown, William Nylander or Connor McDavid step into the Leafs lineup next year.  I fully expect them to create unrealistic expectations during training camp and then malign the players for not living up to them by mid-season. 

I expect a lot of ugliness over the next few years and I hope that the Leafs make the right move when hiring a coach who is going to step in front of it and protect the youth coming into the professional ranks.

Bottom line, those articles can hurt.  It's impossible for them not to,  even if you don't respect the person who writes them.

This is my big fear, I think Shanahan has the stomach for it, I don't know if those above him do too.

 

[bustaheims]

Ok, now no Shanaplan, Molten Orr or Freezer Mclaren..whats a guy to do? :-X

Use people's real names or nicknames that have actually gone mainstream, rather than the less than great ones you make up.

 

[skrackle]

Dreger was on the radio a few days ago saying the Leafs needed to "renovate" rather than "rebuild". What that means I have no idea - but it remains to be seen if the media a) really gets it + b) will accept it. Like some of you pointed out its the media that you have to worry about - they really think they're bigger than the team in Toronto for some reason.

Simple answer: They won't.

Longer answer:  For several years now the Toronto sports media has shown a willingness to become outright antagonistic and vitriolic with the sports teams.  They openly acknlowdge bias in their reporting and show no shame in it.  They have decided that they aren't reports anymore but are all commentators instead which gives them a freedom to say what they want without feeling obligated to back up what they say.

I honestly can't picture the media sitting idly by without a million and a half sarcastic articles written about how useless Kadri is playing on a line with Leivo and insert random UFA.  Or how the Leafs got abused in a difficult trade environment when trying to unload Phaneuf, Kessel, Bozak or Lupul. 

I don't expect to see a media that will be reasonable and patient when Connor Brown, William Nylander or Connor McDavid step into the Leafs lineup next year.  I fully expect them to create unrealistic expectations during training camp and then malign the players for not living up to them by mid-season. 

I expect a lot of ugliness over the next few years and I hope that the Leafs make the right move when hiring a coach who is going to step in front of it and protect the youth coming into the professional ranks.

Bottom line, those articles can hurt.  It's impossible for them not to,  even if you don't respect the person who writes them.

This is my big fear, I think Shanahan has the stomach for it, I don't know if those above him do too.

I think the Leafs organization from top to bottom, needs to acquire the ability to reduce media commentary to background noise. This will be easier said than done.

I think Peter Horachek nailed it when he said some people don't like change. He was speaking of the players, but it extends throughout the Leafs ecosystem. Many are comfortable with the Leafs being a laughing stock. Some even make their living from it.

Maybe we are entering an era where the apple cart will be upset. Or not. Interesting times ahead either way, I'd say.

 

[rdowdall]

I think that absolves the real culprits for the team's shortcomings. It wasn't fans howling for change, it wasn't a critical media. It was ownership. A short-sighted, impatient ownership that was at various times driven by greed, complacency, stupidity and, at times, plain spite. They didn't bend to the will of newspaper columnists, they set their own lousy agendas.

I agree that I did make it sound like I was blaming all the ills if the team on the fans and the media, and that's not the point I was trying to make.  The original discussion was about protecting the young players as they go through the rebuilding phase.  Some of the onus has to be placed on ownership for not setting the proper expectations to fans and media in the past.  I found the handling of Kadri to be particularly problematic because Burke had said he wouldn't make the team until he was ready, but when he was sent back the media overreacted. 

I think that Kadri scenario is the one that sticks out to me.  Brendan Shanahan has come out and said this is what the team is going to do, and it will take as long as it takes.  This is the first step.  It's now up to the media and the fans to accept that, and they might not.  And if they don't accept it then it's up to the team to protect the younger players from that weight. 

Look at the Raptors. Look at Toronto FC. Are they crushed under the weight of media pressure? No. Are they any good? No. What's the common denominator there?

I don't think the Raptors or the Toronto FC receive the kind of coverage that the Leafs get.  Everywhere the Leafs go, they are the centre of attention.  If they go in to Vancouver there are pieces written about how bad they are.  If they go in to Detroit, the media is there.  I don't think the Raptors or the Toronto FC have that kind of following yet.  I think the problems with those two teams were more on the owners because they didn't know how to properly manage those types of teams.  The Leafs have been around a lot longer.  Ignorance shouldn't be an excuse on the ownership side.

Look at the Lakers, look at the Red Sox. Is there a ton of media pressure there? Yes. Have they managed to be successful? Yes. Why? Almost universally they were described as having competent, focused ownership.

I agree that the pressure to perform on both of those teams is the same as the Leafs.  The Lakers lucked out as the didn't have to go to long between generational talents to buoy the team.  Also basketball is a different beast because one player can turn a team around, and then you can flush out the roster with some free agent signings.  When you are the Lakers and you are winning, it is a preferred destination.  When you are the Lakers and you are losing, players don't seem to want to go there as much.  Howard wanted out.  That may have had more to do with Kobe than the media and fan pressure, but there was a lot of negative press directed towards him during his tenure there.  It will be interesting to see how the Lakers fare post Kobe and if they get in to a similar situation as the Leafs are in now.

The Red Sox are probably the closest to the Leafs.  Meltdowns in critical moments that cost them shots at titles.  Question marks about how the team was ever going to get over the hump.  They did have a problem with constructing teams.  Finally they won a title, and I think all of Red Sox nation let out a sigh of relief and it's easier now for them to construct teams because the fans and the media trust they can do it.

The Leafs in the 80's were owned by a lunatic. In the 90's by someone who couldn't fund the team. In the 2000's by a group that would have traded a win for a nickel. I don't know that the new group will be any different but there's promising signs at least by virtue of the fact that they've embraced what the others didn't. If they're end up the kind of people who would bend to the volume of the loudmouths of talk radio then the team's doomed regardless. That's not a reflection of the fans or of the media or of the pressure the two create. That's a reflection of the poor stewardship of the people who sign the checks.

Agreed it's not the fans or media's fault that the teams were bad.  That was decision making by the owners.  However, the pressure to succeed probably didn't help the development of those young players along the way. Look at Larry Murphy.  Horrible in Toronto.  Fans and media got on him, and he was run out of town because he didn't meet the expectation that was set for him.  The Leafs didn't stick up for him.  They traded him for nothing, and it worked out great for him.  Bryan McCabe is another one.  Signs a monster contract and suddenly he is a horrible player.  Bryan McCabe wasn't suddenly going to become a better defenceman because he was making more money.  And those are experienced players.  I can't imagine what would go through an 18 or 19 year old head. 

 

[Redleaf]

Dreger was on the radio a few days ago saying the Leafs needed to "renovate" rather than "rebuild". What that means I have no idea - but it remains to be seen if the media a) really gets it + b) will accept it. Like some of you pointed out its the media that you have to worry about - they really think they're bigger than the team in Toronto for some reason.

Simple answer: They won't.

Longer answer:  For several years now the Toronto sports media has shown a willingness to become outright antagonistic and vitriolic with the sports teams.  They openly acknlowdge bias in their reporting and show no shame in it.  They have decided that they aren't reports anymore but are all commentators instead which gives them a freedom to say what they want without feeling obligated to back up what they say.

I honestly can't picture the media sitting idly by without a million and a half sarcastic articles written about how useless Kadri is playing on a line with Leivo and insert random UFA.  Or how the Leafs got abused in a difficult trade environment when trying to unload Phaneuf, Kessel, Bozak or Lupul. 

I don't expect to see a media that will be reasonable and patient when Connor Brown, William Nylander or Connor McDavid step into the Leafs lineup next year.  I fully expect them to create unrealistic expectations during training camp and then malign the players for not living up to them by mid-season. 

I expect a lot of ugliness over the next few years and I hope that the Leafs make the right move when hiring a coach who is going to step in front of it and protect the youth coming into the professional ranks.

Bottom line, those articles can hurt.  It's impossible for them not to,  even if you don't respect the person who writes them.

This is my big fear, I think Shanahan has the stomach for it, I don't know if those above him do too.

The media in Toronto can go two ways with this rebuild. 1) Accept it, along with the losses, and have very little to talk about and hardly anyone to blame, or 2) continuously and relentlessly tear into this team and its players like they're used to doing in order to sell newspapers.

Yes indeed, it should be very interesting to see how they respond to 3-4 more years of losing, when they will absolutely understand the reason for it.

 

[Britishbulldog]

The media in Toronto can go two ways with this rebuild. 1) Accept it, along with the losses, and have very little to talk about and hardly anyone to blame, or 2) continuously and relentlessly tear into this team and its players like they're used to doing in order to sell newspapers.

Yes indeed, it should be very interesting to see how they respond to 3-4 more years of losing, when they will absolutely understand the reason for it.

I have been surprised how many players, especially non-Leafs that have pegged the Toronto media as being insane compared to other hockey markets.  I have wondered if the media should be limited in their access to the players. This whole 'keep them accountable after every game' by allowing the barrage of questions simply because they are paid very well is ludicrous. 

I get that the players have the pressure to perform well and answer to the coaches and management but having the pencil pushers and some idiots demanding answers seems a bit surreal for an athlete to have to deal with virtually every day.

Is it the media's and our right to have that access?

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

According to BMac the Leafs asked the Sens for permission to speak to McLean after firing Carlyle. Apparently Toronto wanted him as interim coach.

I'd probably take two thing away from that, McLean probably wanted a stronger commitment from them and the guy they really want as coach isn't going to be available till after the playoffs. 

 

[Kin]

I don't think the Raptors or the Toronto FC receive the kind of coverage that the Leafs get.

Come on. I say right in that sentence those two teams don't get the same pressure the Leafs get. At least try to respond to what I said. I asked what the common denominator was between the Leafs, Raptors and Toronto FC.

The Lakers lucked out as the didn't have to go to long between generational talents to buoy the team.  Also basketball is a different beast because one player can turn a team around, and then you can flush out the roster with some free agent signings.  When you are the Lakers and you are winning, it is a preferred destination.  When you are the Lakers and you are losing, players don't seem to want to go there as much.  Howard wanted out.  That may have had more to do with Kobe than the media and fan pressure, but there was a lot of negative press directed towards him during his tenure there.  It will be interesting to see how the Lakers fare post Kobe and if they get in to a similar situation as the Leafs are in now.

The Lakers didn't "luck out". The Lakers were competently run. The interesting thing for them going forward isn't about them post-Kobe, the interesting thing about them will how they fare post-Jerry Buss. They're being run by his children now, his son calling shots in the basketball department, and if the Yankees are any indication being the Child of a
successful owner is no guarantee.

The Red Sox are probably the closest to the Leafs.  Meltdowns in critical moments that cost them shots at titles.  Question marks about how the team was ever going to get over the hump.  They did have a problem with constructing teams.  Finally they won a title, and I think all of Red Sox nation let out a sigh of relief and it's easier now for them to construct teams because the fans and the media trust they can do it.

Those things didn't happen by magic. It had nothing to do with the fans and their questions or their trust level. It had to do with smart ownership coming in. The Red Sox were sold by the Yawkey trust to John Henry in 2002. A few years later they were the most successful team in Baseball.

Agreed it's not the fans or media's fault that the teams were bad.  That was decision making by the owners.  However, the pressure to succeed probably didn't help the development of those young players along the way. Look at Larry Murphy.  Horrible in Toronto.

That's just not true. He wasn't. Fans in Toronto can be idiots and look to disproportionately blame one player for the team's struggles(See, for instance, what's happening with Kessel now). But Larry Murphy wasn't a horrible player in his time in Toronto(he got All-Star and Norris votes) and Brian McCabe didn't "play horribly" once his new contract was signed. What happened was the team sucked, fans reacted like morons and the team was let off the hook for their bad decisions because fans blamed players for not being better than they are. 

There's really no evidence whatsoever that "the pressure" got to them in any way. They played well. The Leafs are not terrible at developing young players. "The pressure" is an excuse people use as for why the team is bad when the team is just poorly run.

 

[Highlander]

Mirtle used the Shanaplan name in todays paper, send him an email Busta!
As far as nicknames go, I will disist if it making you and others unhappy.  Just trying to have fun as always.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Dreger was on the radio a few days ago saying the Leafs needed to "renovate" rather than "rebuild". What that means I have no idea - but it remains to be seen if the media a) really gets it + b) will accept it. Like some of you pointed out its the media that you have to worry about - they really think they're bigger than the team in Toronto for some reason.

Simple answer: They won't.

Longer answer:  For several years now the Toronto sports media has shown a willingness to become outright antagonistic and vitriolic with the sports teams.  They openly acknlowdge bias in their reporting and show no shame in it.  They have decided that they aren't reports anymore but are all commentators instead which gives them a freedom to say what they want without feeling obligated to back up what they say.

I honestly can't picture the media sitting idly by without a million and a half sarcastic articles written about how useless Kadri is playing on a line with Leivo and insert random UFA.  Or how the Leafs got abused in a difficult trade environment when trying to unload Phaneuf, Kessel, Bozak or Lupul. 

I don't expect to see a media that will be reasonable and patient when Connor Brown, William Nylander or Connor McDavid step into the Leafs lineup next year.  I fully expect them to create unrealistic expectations during training camp and then malign the players for not living up to them by mid-season. 

I expect a lot of ugliness over the next few years and I hope that the Leafs make the right move when hiring a coach who is going to step in front of it and protect the youth coming into the professional ranks.

Bottom line, those articles can hurt.  It's impossible for them not to,  even if you don't respect the person who writes them.

This is my big fear, I think Shanahan has the stomach for it, I don't know if those above him do too.

The media in Toronto can go two ways with this rebuild. 1) Accept it, along with the losses, and have very little to talk about and hardly anyone to blame, or 2) continuously and relentlessly tear into this team and its players like they're used to doing in order to sell newspapers.

Yes indeed, it should be very interesting to see how they respond to 3-4 more years of losing, when they will absolutely understand the reason for it.

They were already asking yesterday for Shanahan to give a timeline.  That'll only be asked another thousand times...by fall.

 

[Highlander]

Shanny will have to have the patience of Jobe.

 

[herman]

They were already asking yesterday for Shanahan to give a timeline.  That'll only be asked another thousand times...by fall.

Get him one of these:

 

[cw]

Agreed it's not the fans or media's fault that the teams were bad.  That was decision making by the owners.  However, the pressure to succeed probably didn't help the development of those young players along the way. Look at Larry Murphy.  Horrible in Toronto.

That's just not true. He wasn't. Fans in Toronto can be idiots and look to disproportionately blame one player for the team's struggles(See, for instance, what's happening with Kessel now). But Larry Murphy wasn't a horrible player in his time in Toronto(he got All-Star and Norris votes) and Brian McCabe didn't "play horribly" once his new contract was signed. What happened was the team sucked, fans reacted like morons and the team was let off the hook for their bad decisions because fans blamed players for not being better than they are. 

Murphy wasn't a good/great player in Toronto either. He got three votes for all star/Norris in Toronto which I feel was a hang over from previous seasons - not so much for what he did in Toronto.

Throughout his career, he was never a great skater, never a physical dman who would put a guy through the glass, never a hard shot. When he got to Toronto, he was arthritic as a skater - very labored to move or turn - I don't recall how much was injury. He was at that juncture close to horrible as a skater. i went to some of those games and saw it first hand. Nearly anyone could blow by him.

Now, some of the problem in Toronto was in how he was used and who he was partnered with - coaching. At prior destinations, he had dmen who could cover for him. Samuelson was one I recall.

Where he was absolutely brilliant, even in Toronto, was in reading and anticipating the play (which helped him with his lack of mobility because his positioning was excellent) and in passing the puck.

When he went to Detroit, his frequent partner was none other than Lidstrom, who as we found out, could make any partner look good. And their style of play was heavy on maintaining puck possession, which fit his talent in passing, positioining and anticipating/reading the play much better than Toronto.

Craig McTavish recently ?I always use the Larry Murphy analogy. When he was in Toronto, it was said he couldn?t play. Then he went to Detroit and he was an all-star for three years ? because the team was so strong, it hid every individual weakness."
(fact: Murphy was never elected to the first or second all star teams while in Detroit - may have represented Detroit at the all star game once)

I agree with McTavish that Murphy had some glaring individual weaknesses that the strength of their skaters particularly helped cover.

I think likewise about Kessel. There are not many guys who can score goals as consistently though this season the question might be if he can score when he plays defense. But he's a limited talent in that he isn't very good at anything else. I don't think one can build a winner around that. It's a talent that could be added like Murphy was to help (Detroit's PP)  a club that's close with goal scoring.

 

[Kin]

Murphy wasn't a good/great player in Toronto either. He got three votes for all star/Norris in Toronto which I feel was a hang over from previous seasons - not so much for what he did in Toronto.

He was absolutely a good player in Toronto. You won't score 60 points as a defenseman as a bad player even if your defense is atrocious.

 

[rdowdall]

Come on. I say right in that sentence those two teams don't get the same pressure the Leafs get. At least try to respond to what I said. I asked what the common denominator was between the Leafs, Raptors and Toronto FC.

Okay, so now the Raptors are doing well and the Leafs still aren't.  Still have the same owners.  What's the differentiation? 

The Lakers didn't "luck out". The Lakers were competently run. The interesting thing for them going forward isn't about them post-Kobe, the interesting thing about them will how they fare post-Jerry Buss. They're being run by his children now, his son calling shots in the basketball department, and if the Yankees are any indication being the Child of a successful owner is no guarantee.

I feel a great many things in sports come down to luck.  It was great management that recognized that Kobe was a special player.  It was somewhat lucky that the team they traded with didn't see the same thing in him.  It was also lucky that he didn't have a career ending injury, and that he actually developed in to the player that the Lakers believed he would become, because there was no guarantee that it was going to happen.  The player to push themselves to those sorts of levels.  They are special  talents and they have to put in the work.  If they decide not to put in that work, for whatever reason, they won't reach their potential.  Kwame Brown had potential too.  By all accounts Jordan destroyed it.  I will agree that having Jordan yelling at you is worse than having fans yell at you.  But if your confidence can be shaken, by Jordan, then it is also possible that it could be shaken by the fans, and if your confidence is shaken, then you probably won't reach your potential.  I have no conclusive proof that confidence is actually import, other than numerous sports interviews where the athlete in the interview has said confidence is important.     

Those things didn't happen by magic. It had nothing to do with the fans and their questions or their trust level. It had to do with smart ownership coming in. The Red Sox were sold by the Yawkey trust to John Henry in 2002. A few years later they were the most successful team in Baseball.

Not magic no.  All competent management did was increase the chances that the team was going to win.  No one could have predicted that the Boston Red Sox were going to win the pennant in 2004 definitely not after they went down 3-0.  Everything just fell in to place for them.  Look at the Cubs when Steve Bartman touched the ball.  Whole thing fell apart because of a fan interaction.  Yes that fan interaction had an actual effect on the game, but how is that any different if a fan says something particular to a player before a game that has an effect on his play?

Look at Josh Hamilton.  Throws a ball, father falls out of the seats and dies.  I will admit that I have no proof that it's tied to his relapse, none whatsoever, but I look at that and say if that was me, I could see it playing out that way.   

Not every competently managed team wins a championship.  There are always other factors that go in to it, and one of them is, for lack of a better term, luck.  We don't know why things happen the way they happen.  We are dealing with decisions that are made in the blink of an eye and often the players themselves can't even explain why they do the things they do sometimes.  If you aren't feeling good about yourself I believe it  makes it harder to perform.   

That's just not true. He wasn't. Fans in Toronto can be idiots and look to disproportionately blame one player for the team's struggles(See, for instance, what's happening with Kessel now). But Larry Murphy wasn't a horrible player in his time in Toronto(he got All-Star and Norris votes) and Brian McCabe didn't "play horribly" once his new contract was signed. What happened was the team sucked, fans reacted like morons and the team was let off the hook for their bad decisions because fans blamed players for not being better than they are. 

There's really no evidence whatsoever that "the pressure" got to them in any way. They played well. The Leafs are not terrible at developing young players. "The pressure" is an excuse people use as for why the team is bad when the team is just poorly run.

Larry Murphy was booed every time he touched the puck by the home fans in Toronto.  I have no proof what that did to him, you are correct.  I have never interviewed him, or psychoanalyzed him.  I am going on assumption that it could not have been a pleasant experience for him and therefore affected his game.  I am also assuming that if I am anointed as an 18 year old or a 19 year old as being the saviour of a sports franchise that is currently suffering the longest championship drought in the sport, and a fairly horrible track record  when it comes to winning in general, that if things go south and the city is pointing the finger at me, then I might suffer from confidence issues.  The Leafs have to protect their young players from that because I'm not sure the city is going to have the proper expectation for some of these kids.  It's part of being a good management team.  Protecting you players from outside forces that can derail their development.