Of Nonis, Babcock & who the heck is going to be running this asylum on draft day

[Chev-boyar-sky]

So I'd say draft position combined with production at various ages are actually extremely good indicators of future production. Or course there are exceptions to rules.

At this point you're not even holding true to whatever bizarre internal logic you were using just a few posts ago. In one post you're asking why Pulkinnen(4th round choice, 23 years old) isn't rated higher than Mantha(1st round pick, 20 years old) and now, when you're given a concrete example of how bogus that is all of a sudden it's unfair to compare players of different ages and different draft positions based on one year's production. At some point you're just talking to hear your own voice.

Leaving aside that you ignored Samsonov(same age as Thornton, also a top ten pick, outscored him by 40 points) you're ignoring again that most of those guys were defensemen. That's how bad Thornton's production was. But most people know that part of that is that Samsonov was put in a position to succeed. He got top line time, PP time. Thornton was buried on the 4th line. Things like that affect production and they're not a reflection of a prospect's abilities. How many Grand Rapids games do you watch? How is Mantha being used? How did they shield him coming back from his injury? What sort of a defensive player is he? How does he use his size compared to Nylander. Those are the things scouts take into consideration beyond just the points column of a box score.

Fact is, everyone who's looking at him with even slightly more sophistication then a five second trip over to Hockeydb is rating him as one of the top prospects in the league.

Now others may rank Mantha higher, but I'd say it's pretty telling that Nylander has a comparable (slightly higher actually) than Mantha and he's 2 years younger. He's also the higher pick. Time will tell if that is the case.

Interestingly enough I'm not overly concerned with where Mantha rates on your idiosyncratic list of top prospects AHL scorers. Scouts are high on him. He was great at the WJC. Detroit's fans seem to have absolutely no interest in trading him.

So taking it back to Phaneuf, they can ask for a prospect like Mantha all they want in return for eating money but Detroit made the smart move and had no interest in it. When the Leafs try to trade Phaneuf in the off-season they're still going to have to compete with teams going out and spending money on a defenseman vs. spending the price in picks and prospects you think Phaneuf is "worth". If I'm a GM, I'll spend cap dollars gladly before 1st round picks and top prospects.

Hey man if you're going to quote me at least do it properly. I said:

"I mean, Pulkkinen who's a well regarded prospect, is leading the AHL in scoring and doesn't even appear on the list (?)."

I never said he should be above Mantha, just that he didn't appear in the list of 50 but I know it suits your narrative better.

Also Samsonov was the better part of a year older than Thornton but that's just details I guess.

 

[Kin]

Pulkkinen looks as good if not better (although he's older) as another 4th rounder.

This is you specifically saying Pulkinnen is as good if not better a prospect.

 

[Kin]

Also Samsonov was the better part of a year older than Thornton but that's just details I guess.

When it comes to prospects, yes, 10 months is going to be seen as largely inconsequential. They were in the same draft class. Keep reaching though.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Pulkkinen looks as good if not better (although he's older) as another 4th rounder.

This is you specifically saying Pulkinnen is as good if not better a prospect.

And this is you misquoting me:

"In one post you're asking why Pulkinnen(4th round choice, 23 years old) isn't rated higher than Mantha(1st round pick, 20 years old)"

I never asked that question but thanks for trying.

 

[Madferret]

Cheva you've got it all backwards - it's the Leafs who are going to have throw prospects or picks in to entice a GM to take on the Phaneuf contract via trade, not vice versa.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Also Samsonov was the better part of a year older than Thornton but that's just details I guess.

When it comes to prospects, yes, 10 months is going to be seen as largely inconsequential. They were in the same draft class. Keep reaching though.

A basic understanding of human physiology at that age might give you a clue as to why that matters playing in the NHL against full grown men but I know you just like arguing.

 

[Kin]

A basic understanding of human physiology at that age might give you a clue as to why that matters playing in the NHL against full grown men but I know you just like arguing.

Thornton had about 8 inches and 50 pounds on Samsonov. Honestly, man, just stop.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Cheva you've got it all backwards - it's the Leafs who are going to have throw prospects or picks in to entice a GM to take on the Phaneuf contract via trade, not vice versa.

Yup and Franson is NEVER getting a 1st.

 

[bustaheims]

Cheva you've got it all backwards - it's the Leafs who are going to have throw prospects or picks in to entice a GM to take on the Phaneuf contract via trade, not vice versa.

Just like Winnik wasn't worth a 2nd round pick? Maybe you should reevaluate your view on trade values.

 

[Kin]

Cheva you've got it all backwards - it's the Leafs who are going to have throw prospects or picks in to entice a GM to take on the Phaneuf contract via trade, not vice versa.

Yup and Franson is NEVER getting a 1st.

I think if there's one thing Madferret has established over the last little while it's that he's really first-rate when it comes to evaluating what players are worth on the trade market.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Cheva you've got it all backwards - it's the Leafs who are going to have throw prospects or picks in to entice a GM to take on the Phaneuf contract via trade, not vice versa.

You already know that Phaneuf is going to Ottawa for Hoffman, The Hamburglar and Lazar.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Cheva you've got it all backwards - it's the Leafs who are going to have throw prospects or picks in to entice a GM to take on the Phaneuf contract via trade, not vice versa.

Thanks, you've reassured me that that's definitely not going to happen now.

 

[Madferret]

Cheva you've got it all backwards - it's the Leafs who are going to have throw prospects or picks in to entice a GM to take on the Phaneuf contract via trade, not vice versa.

Yup and Franson is NEVER getting a 1st.

Um..he didn't

 

[Madferret]

Lol yeah and you guys seem to have a real handle on it

 

[Madferret]

Who knew the Leafs were suddenly going to start throwing their $ around in the trade market. Next lockout is on the Leafs conscious

 

[Madferret]

Can we get back to the squabble about how many draft picks & prospects the gracious GM who trades for Phaneuf is going to shower on the Leafs?

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Who knew the Leafs were suddenly going to start throwing their $ around in the trade market. Next lockout is on the Leafs conscious

The Sens made it hail at Timmy's...ballin!

Oh and the trade was broken down by every media outlet as Franson for a 1st and Santorelli for Leipsic, but I value your opinion more.

 

[TML fan]

Maybe at the next lockout the league will wise up and realize they don't need all those pretend franchises like Ottawa dragging everyone else down.

 

[Madferret]

Who knew the Leafs were suddenly going to start throwing their $ around in the trade market. Next lockout is on the Leafs conscious

The Sens made it hail at Timmy's...ballin!

Oh and the trade was broken down by every media outlet as Franson for a 1st and Santorelli for Leipsic, but I value your opinion more.

Lol by who? Dregger and the boys who work for the Leafs? Show me all these unbiased breakdowns

 

[Madferret]

Maybe at the next lockout the league will wise up and realize they don't need all those pretend franchises like Ottawa dragging everyone else down.

Something like that yeah