Oilers @ Leafs - Nov. 1st, 7:30pm - TSN4, Fan 590

[Coco-puffs]

I hate piling on the guy, but it's amazing how many great plays from Matthews and Nylander have absolutely nothing to do with Hyman.

Yeah, but:

A) I think right now you need a good defensive player as their 3rd.

B) That Hyman isn't immediately the ideal 3rd offensively for them doesn't necessarily mean you should give up on developing him into one.

I think that you're right about Point A, but there's probably other options available. We of course might be seeing an obvious candidate emerging tonight in Sosh.

My big issue is whether or not Babcock truly believes how big of an effect Hyman's had on those twos offensive success (which is actually little-to-none) or if he's just pumping his tires to the media. Because that line's only scored 2 even-strength goals since the home opener. At some point something has to give.

Ouch. And, the thing is, Matthews and Nylander are generating a lot of quality chances. As long as the Leafs have Bozak cluttering up the Cs, makes sense to let Matthews and Nylander develop together, split face offs, etc. So, I'm all for them sticking together -- but, if Hyman doesn't have the skills or instincts to be developed into their defensively responsible 3rd (and I haven't seen much to indicate he can), why not give someone else a shot? Griffith, Holland, Brown, Leivo all seem options worth trying out.

Griffith and Brown are RW and I doubt they'd be comfortable on their off wing.  So unless you move Nylander over to the Left side, that won't work out very well.  Holland can certainly slot in there, and Leivo is a left winger but I'm not sure about him keeping up speed wise.  Both of those guys will definitely help them pot more goals, but I'm not sure they'd make their tire-fire defensive zone coverage any better (likely worse).

 

[Deebo]

How did Hyman lead all Leaf forwards in ice-time? How was Kadri 4th lowest among forwards at just 14:05?

Special teams.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

How did Hyman lead all Leaf forwards in ice-time? How was Kadri 4th lowest among forwards at just 14:05?

Special teams.

The Leafs were only on the PK twice so that wouldn't have made a huge difference. Still a 4-minute gap between those 2 players at even-strength.

Looks like the Matthews line got about 17.5 minutes there, Bozak's about 14.5 minutes, Kadri's about 13.5, and the 4th line about 7.5.

 

[herman]

http://www.naturalstattrick.com/game.php?season=20162017&game=20134

Auston Matthews tuned up Kris Russell for 11 chances to 1 chance against in about 5 minutes of 5v5 ice time together.

Matthews/Nylander dominated their matchup against Nurse/Klefbom - Maroon/Draisaitl/Puljujarvi.

McDavid saw a steady diet of Rielly/Zaitsev - Komarov/Kadri/Brown, and a bit of Hyman/Matthews/Nylander and kept him snowed under 50%.

 

[Deebo]

How did Hyman lead all Leaf forwards in ice-time? How was Kadri 4th lowest among forwards at just 14:05?

Special teams.

The Leafs were only on the PK twice so that wouldn't have made a huge difference. Still a 4-minute gap between those 2 players at even-strength.

Looks like the Matthews line got about 17.5 minutes there, Bozak's about 14.5 minutes, Kadri's about 13.5, and the 4th line about 7.5.

Hyman ended up with the most time on ice with because he played on the top ESTOI line and played more special teams time than Nylander and Matthews since the Leafs were on the PK more than the PP.

Kadri played on the the line with the 3rd most ESTOI and had 14 seconds on special teams time while his linemates played 3:00+ of special teams. That is how he ended up 4th last in ice time.

The four minute gap is because one played on the highest ESTOI line and one played on the 3rd highest ESTOI line. Kadri isn't going to be a winger on the Matthews line, so whoever the 3rd man on that line will have more TOI than Kadri, which is how it should be.

 

[herman]

https://streamable.com/rf4l

During the game, I was wondering who made this sweet pass to Nylander (since it was a lefty and Hyman would never pass like that) after some great juke work by Matthews.

 

[Frank E]

How did Hyman lead all Leaf forwards in ice-time? How was Kadri 4th lowest among forwards at just 14:05?

Special teams.

The Leafs were only on the PK twice so that wouldn't have made a huge difference. Still a 4-minute gap between those 2 players at even-strength.

Looks like the Matthews line got about 17.5 minutes there, Bozak's about 14.5 minutes, Kadri's about 13.5, and the 4th line about 7.5.

Hyman ended up with the most time on ice with because he played on the top ESTOI line and played more special teams time than Nylander and Matthews since the Leafs were on the PK more than the PP.

Kadri played on the the line with the 3rd most ESTOI and had 14 seconds on special teams time while his linemates played 3:00+ of special teams. That is how he ended up 4th last in ice time.

The four minute gap is because one played on the highest ESTOI line and one played on the 3rd highest ESTOI line. Kadri isn't going to be a winger on the Matthews line, so whoever the 3rd man on that line will have more TOI than Kadri, which is how it should be.

Nerds.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Hyman ended up with the most time on ice with because he played on the top ESTOI line and played more special teams time than Nylander and Matthews since the Leafs were on the PK more than the PP.

Kadri played on the the line with the 3rd most ESTOI and had 14 seconds on special teams time while his linemates played 3:00+ of special teams. That is how he ended up 4th last in ice time.

The four minute gap is because one played on the highest ESTOI line and one played on the 3rd highest ESTOI line. Kadri isn't going to be a winger on the Matthews line, so whoever the 3rd man on that line will have more TOI than Kadri, which is how it should be.

Ok but I mean saying "the reason Kadri was 4th last in ice-time is because he played 3rd line minutes" isn't answering the question it's repeating it as a statement. I'm just surprised that Kadri played 3rd line minutes despite the fact that a) he was the best player in that game and b) he was tasked with the most important job in the game.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Hyman ended up with the most time on ice with because he played on the top ESTOI line and played more special teams time than Nylander and Matthews since the Leafs were on the PK more than the PP.

Kadri played on the the line with the 3rd most ESTOI and had 14 seconds on special teams time while his linemates played 3:00+ of special teams. That is how he ended up 4th last in ice time.

The four minute gap is because one played on the highest ESTOI line and one played on the 3rd highest ESTOI line. Kadri isn't going to be a winger on the Matthews line, so whoever the 3rd man on that line will have more TOI than Kadri, which is how it should be.

Ok but I mean saying "the reason Kadri was 4th last in ice-time is because he played 3rd line minutes" isn't answering the question it's repeating it as a statement. I'm just surprised that Kadri played 3rd line minutes despite the fact that a) he was the best player in that game and b) he was tasked with the most important job in the game.

When you are line-matching like this, you are typically coming onto the ice AFTER your matchup, and changing around the same time as your matchup (ie, short shifts).  Kadri was second on the team in total shifts among forwards:  27 shifts averaging 31 seconds each. 

Only Komarov had more, at 28 shifts, and he played PK minutes while Kadri did not.  Hyman and Brown had 26 shifts each, but once again, they had PK minutes.  Next best was 22 shifts each for Nylander, Matthews, and Bozak (PP minutes for each of them), and they averaged much longer shifts (0:51 and 0:52 for N & M) because they weren't as focused on the matchup game.

 

[mr grieves]

Ouch. And, the thing is, Matthews and Nylander are generating a lot of quality chances. As long as the Leafs have Bozak cluttering up the Cs, makes sense to let Matthews and Nylander develop together, split face offs, etc. So, I'm all for them sticking together -- but, if Hyman doesn't have the skills or instincts to be developed into their defensively responsible 3rd (and I haven't seen much to indicate he can), why not give someone else a shot? Griffith, Holland, Brown, Leivo all seem options worth trying out.

Griffith and Brown are RW and I doubt they'd be comfortable on their off wing.  So unless you move Nylander over to the Left side, that won't work out very well.  Holland can certainly slot in there, and Leivo is a left winger but I'm not sure about him keeping up speed wise.  Both of those guys will definitely help them pot more goals, but I'm not sure they'd make their tire-fire defensive zone coverage any better (likely worse).

Thought Soshnikov was a LW, so he and Holland could work, and that Nylander can play all forward positions, which would free up space for Griffith and Brown. I haven't seen much to suggest Hyman is particularly great on defense, certainly nothing to suggest he's so good that all the broken plays ought to be tolerated.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Ouch. And, the thing is, Matthews and Nylander are generating a lot of quality chances. As long as the Leafs have Bozak cluttering up the Cs, makes sense to let Matthews and Nylander develop together, split face offs, etc. So, I'm all for them sticking together -- but, if Hyman doesn't have the skills or instincts to be developed into their defensively responsible 3rd (and I haven't seen much to indicate he can), why not give someone else a shot? Griffith, Holland, Brown, Leivo all seem options worth trying out.

Griffith and Brown are RW and I doubt they'd be comfortable on their off wing.  So unless you move Nylander over to the Left side, that won't work out very well.  Holland can certainly slot in there, and Leivo is a left winger but I'm not sure about him keeping up speed wise.  Both of those guys will definitely help them pot more goals, but I'm not sure they'd make their tire-fire defensive zone coverage any better (likely worse).

Thought Soshnikov was a LW, so he and Holland could work, and that Nylander can play all forward positions, which would free up space for Griffith and Brown. I haven't seen much to suggest Hyman is particularly great on defense, certainly nothing to suggest he's so good that all the broken plays ought to be tolerated.

I think moving Nylander over to LW is probably the easiest transition.  Considering both Marner and Brown have shown pretty decent defensive chops, I'd like to see:

Nylander - Matthews - Brown
Komarov - Kadri - Marner  (still the "matchup" line)
JvR - Bozak - Soshnikov/Griffith
Martin - Smith - Hyman

 

[Highlander]

I can't wait to see Nylander/Matthews/Soshnikov

 

[CarltonTheBear]

When you are line-matching like this, you are typically coming onto the ice AFTER your matchup, and changing around the same time as your matchup (ie, short shifts).  Kadri was second on the team in total shifts among forwards:  27 shifts averaging 31 seconds each.

Interesting find on the number of shifts. And while my initial thought was that line-matching should have increased Kadri's ice-time, I think I can see why it may have actually limited it (in addition to your point). Babs wouldn't have wanted to put Kadri out on the ice at any time when McDavid wasn't on it, in fear of Connor coming on immediately after Kadri came off. So he essentially had to wait for McLellan to make the first for every one of Naz's shifts, and obviously it's not possible to always make the change after that.

 

[jonlleafs]

Ouch. And, the thing is, Matthews and Nylander are generating a lot of quality chances. As long as the Leafs have Bozak cluttering up the Cs, makes sense to let Matthews and Nylander develop together, split face offs, etc. So, I'm all for them sticking together -- but, if Hyman doesn't have the skills or instincts to be developed into their defensively responsible 3rd (and I haven't seen much to indicate he can), why not give someone else a shot? Griffith, Holland, Brown, Leivo all seem options worth trying out.

Griffith and Brown are RW and I doubt they'd be comfortable on their off wing.  So unless you move Nylander over to the Left side, that won't work out very well.  Holland can certainly slot in there, and Leivo is a left winger but I'm not sure about him keeping up speed wise.  Both of those guys will definitely help them pot more goals, but I'm not sure they'd make their tire-fire defensive zone coverage any better (likely worse).

Thought Soshnikov was a LW, so he and Holland could work, and that Nylander can play all forward positions, which would free up space for Griffith and Brown. I haven't seen much to suggest Hyman is particularly great on defense, certainly nothing to suggest he's so good that all the broken plays ought to be tolerated.

I think moving Nylander over to LW is probably the easiest transition.  Considering both Marner and Brown have shown pretty decent defensive chops, I'd like to see:

Nylander - Matthews - Brown
Komarov - Kadri - Marner  (still the "matchup" line)
JvR - Bozak - Soshnikov/Griffith
Martin - Smith - Hyman

Why would you mess up Nylander/Matthews when it's clicking just to add another guy to their line?  Leave Nylander where he is and have Brown make the adjustment if you even put Brown there.  Personally, I'd like to see Soshnikov there.  That would be a rocking line.  Basically a higher skill version of Hyman.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Ouch. And, the thing is, Matthews and Nylander are generating a lot of quality chances. As long as the Leafs have Bozak cluttering up the Cs, makes sense to let Matthews and Nylander develop together, split face offs, etc. So, I'm all for them sticking together -- but, if Hyman doesn't have the skills or instincts to be developed into their defensively responsible 3rd (and I haven't seen much to indicate he can), why not give someone else a shot? Griffith, Holland, Brown, Leivo all seem options worth trying out.

Griffith and Brown are RW and I doubt they'd be comfortable on their off wing.  So unless you move Nylander over to the Left side, that won't work out very well.  Holland can certainly slot in there, and Leivo is a left winger but I'm not sure about him keeping up speed wise.  Both of those guys will definitely help them pot more goals, but I'm not sure they'd make their tire-fire defensive zone coverage any better (likely worse).

Thought Soshnikov was a LW, so he and Holland could work, and that Nylander can play all forward positions, which would free up space for Griffith and Brown. I haven't seen much to suggest Hyman is particularly great on defense, certainly nothing to suggest he's so good that all the broken plays ought to be tolerated.

I think moving Nylander over to LW is probably the easiest transition.  Considering both Marner and Brown have shown pretty decent defensive chops, I'd like to see:

Nylander - Matthews - Brown
Komarov - Kadri - Marner  (still the "matchup" line)
JvR - Bozak - Soshnikov/Griffith
Martin - Smith - Hyman

Why would you mess up Nylander/Matthews when it's clicking just to add another guy to their line?  Leave Nylander where he is and have Brown make the adjustment if you even put Brown there.  Personally, I'd like to see Soshnikov there.  That would be a rocking line.  Basically a higher skill version of Hyman.

It's clicking?  Maybe in terms of possession, but they haven't scored 5-on-5 in a long while.  Almost all of their points have come on the PP since the first few games.

Brown will always play RW and I don't think you'll ever see him play the off wing.  If you don't want to move Nylander to the off wing, then your suggestion of putting Sosh there does fit.  But I'd rather see Komarov or JvR there before him.  (Although I hesitate with JvR there, his isn't very good defensively)