Opening Forward Lines

[TML fan]

Not digging deep at all actually.  Kadri's performed very well by almost any metric you want to use.  Looking beyond simply goals and assists should not be 'digging deep' for anyone out of elementary school.

Also, context matters. Simply looking at raw totals without looking at how they produced those totals, who they were playing with, etc. provides very little insight. The 'how' and 'why' are just as -  if not more - important as the 'what.'

Yep.  I think Bozak's performed very well and has exceeded expectations.  But I think Kadri gets an unfair shake and that Bozak would not perform as well as he has if Bozak was given the same linemates & ice-time.

And I think we've said a number of times it's understood that the Leafs would want to spread the scoring out, it's more in response to criticism of Kadri that he is inconsistent and could/should be traded.

Well, the way I see it is if Kadri isn't good enough to elevate the play of his linemates, then he is not good enough to be considered an untouchable.

If his linemates are dragging him down, then he needs new linemates. Where do you get that from though? Kadri is one of the more valuable trade chips the Leafs have. If they need to improve their secondary scoring then Kadri is likely one of the first on the block.

I think the argument is just that. If the Leafs can improve their secondary scoring by trading Kadri, and filling the 2nd line centre role with someone who maybe doesn't score a lot but is better than him on the defensive side of the game, it's definitely worth exploring. The issue right now seems to be that nobody seems to be able to play with him at a high enough level to give the Leafs two legitimate scoring lines.

Bumping Bozak for him doesn't make any sense. You're diminishing the effectiveness of one player to boost the stats of another. At the end of the day the Leafs are still a one line team.

Except the Bozak line doesn't score much 5 on 5--special teams performance masks that issue, but it's there. This is not a team that can afford to trade away one of their only consistent even strength scorers for someone who "maybe doesn't score a lot but is better than [Kadri] on the defensive side of the game." Not to mention the fact that Kadri's ability to maintain control of the puck completely outweighs any perceived defensive deficiencies he has.

The problem isn't Kadri. It's how he's being used.

Kadri's ability to maintain possession is irrelevant considering the kind of hockey the Leafs play.

According to this season, the 1st line scores as much at even strength as Kadri does (Bozak included), so I don't know about that either.

 

[applecheeks]

Kadri does not impress me, why the argument for a guy who is yet to come into his own. He's young and will get there, he just needs time and some coaching.
Bozak has been improving every game and will get better as time goes on. I look forward to both of these centres to improve as the whole team improves. imo

 

[Tigger]

Does anyone think that Bozak's numbers would decline significantly if he weren't on the top line?

If he wasn't on the top line and top power play and he had Clarkson as his primary winger? Absolutely.

I think he'd still be doing well though.

He's been scoring when being put in a position to score last and this season. As long as it's looking like he'll be scoring at a 65-ish point pace I won't be too upset that he's on the top line. My biggest issue is the perception that he's some sort of defensive rock, which he isn't. No matter how many times someone tells me he plays on the penalty kill. Watch him in our zone at 5-on-5, he's constantly leaving his man open.

There's a conversation now that Kadri is showing relatively consistent flashes of being better defensively. Bozak has him and a lot of the league beat in the faceoff dot but Nazem is coming along in other areas.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Does anyone think that Bozak's numbers would decline significantly if he weren't on the top line?

If he wasn't on the top line and top power play and he had Clarkson as his primary winger? Absolutely.

I think he'd still be doing well though.

He's been scoring when being put in a position to score last and this season. As long as it's looking like he'll be scoring at a 65-ish point pace I won't be too upset that he's on the top line. My biggest issue is the perception that he's some sort of defensive rock, which he isn't. No matter how many times someone tells me he plays on the penalty kill. Watch him in our zone at 5-on-5, he's constantly leaving his man open.

There's a conversation now that Kadri is showing relatively consistent flashes of being better defensively. Bozak has him and a lot of the league beat in the faceoff dot but Nazem is coming along in other areas.

Though not in the "scoring at close to a 40G pace" area.

They're both good players. I'll be happy to se Kadri back with Lupul. Bozak is having a great year and is making his contract look very good. If he keeps it up, I think he is extremely movable (seeing as how lots of people seem to dislike him).

 

[Bullfrog]

I have a feeling Lupul will be moved to free up some space. Too bad, I really like his offensive game and I think he and Kadri can work together. Also gives the team another option on the power play.

 

[Britishbulldog]

After I have been wondering how the Leafs will fit under the cap next year I saw this posted yesterday:
The Four Players the Leafs Must Trade

According to Capgeek.com, the Leafs have $1.84 million dollars in cap space currently available.  This puts the team in a hard position if their goal is to improve the current roster. Furthermore, the Leafs need to re-sign Franson, Kadri and Bernier for next season and the only contracts coming off the books after this year are guys like Santorelli and Winnik ? guys who make near the minimum and have to be re-upped or replaced with similar players at similar deals regardless.

What this means is that from a team building perspective, the Leafs have to move out some of their current players and restructure their payroll so that they don?t end up losing what are arguably, outside Kessel and Rielly, the three most important players on the team going forward.

Here then, is a list of players the Leafs almost have to trade:
1. James Reimer -$2.3 million for a back-up is unacceptable.

2. Tyler Bozak
There was a time when I was sold on the point production and argued earnestly that he was one of the most underrated players in the NHL......consider that you can move Kadri up to the Kessel line, partner JVR with Holland and instantly be a better team.

3. Joffrey Lupul
......with Nylander coming, Kadri or Holland capable of moving over to the wing (if a better centre is acquired) and the likes of Carter, Panik or Kozun really untested in a top six roll but potentially capable, the Leafs would be smart to get his contract off the books.

Trading Lupul won?t be as hard as some people think. He is more unlucky that he is injury prone, and when  healthy he can improve the top six of virtually any team in the NHL.

4. Gardiner or Phaneuf

Let me very clear here: Gardiner is my favorite up and coming player and Dion Phaneuf is my favorite player......I think that it?s quite obvious that Rielly, Franson, Percy are half of the future of this team?s defensive group. That means that if Gardiner and Phaneuf are also on it, only one spot remains open long term. I do not see the Leafs getting the kind of internal improvement from this group.....

I still think that barring Rielly?s development into a total stud #1 all-star, the team is short that player from competing. So that means that someone needs to be acquired and someone needs to go. 

Interesting perspective.

 

[2badknees]

Not sure I agree with #1 - while I think Bernier is the starter, I'd be concerned with his injury history. They need to have someone backing up that has the ability to step in and do more than play the occasional back to back split - and that's going to cost more than $1M. If Reimer isn't that guy, then they'll still have to get a reliable 2nd option, and that won't save cash.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Does anyone think that Bozak's numbers would decline significantly if he weren't on the top line?

If he wasn't on the top line and top power play and he had Clarkson as his primary winger? Absolutely.

I think he'd still be doing well though.

He's been scoring when being put in a position to score last and this season. As long as it's looking like he'll be scoring at a 65-ish point pace I won't be too upset that he's on the top line. My biggest issue is the perception that he's some sort of defensive rock, which he isn't. No matter how many times someone tells me he plays on the penalty kill. Watch him in our zone at 5-on-5, he's constantly leaving his man open.

There's a conversation now that Kadri is showing relatively consistent flashes of being better defensively. Bozak has him and a lot of the league beat in the faceoff dot but Nazem is coming along in other areas.

Though not in the "scoring at close to a 40G pace" area.

They're both good players. I'll be happy to se Kadri back with Lupul. Bozak is having a great year and is making his contract look very good. If he keeps it up, I think he is extremely movable (seeing as how lots of people seem to dislike him).

Debating Bozak's place in the lineup doesn't mean someone dislikes him. I think he's performed admirably this season.

 

[bustaheims]

And despite his 2 SH goals (which were obviously great) he's not playing the PK this season other than to take some faceoffs.

Yeah. He's only averaging 33 seconds per game on the PK, and 16 seconds per face-off he takes when the Leafs are short-handed. He's out there to win the face-off and get off the ice as soon as possible (and, he's only winning a touch more than 40% on his draws on the PK, so he's not really doing a great job of it).

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

As much as I'm interested to see more of Kadri on the point on the power play, the one concern of sorts that I have about it is that I can't really imagine Kadri taking a shot from the point.  While I don't think it's necessarily vital that a point man takes shots on the power play, I do feel that at the very least, the defending team needs to be forced into assuming that Kadri is a threat to shoot like any point man on the PP, and play him as such.  If Kadri continues to play the point, and continues to dish the puck off as he does so well, I expect defenders are gradually simply going to back off and play the pass.

It's not a big deal, but every little bit of time and space counts, as well as every bit of defensive uncertainty from the opposition.

 

[bustaheims]

As much as I'm interested to see more of Kadri on the point on the power play, the one concern of sorts that I have about it is that I can't really imagine Kadri taking a shot from the point.  While I don't think it's necessarily vital that a point man takes shots on the power play, I do feel that at the very least, the defending team needs to be forced into assuming that Kadri is a threat to shoot like any point man on the PP, and play him as such.  If Kadri continues to play the point, and continues to dish the puck off as he does so well, I expect defenders are gradually simply going to back off and play the pass.

It's not a big deal, but every little bit of time and space counts, as well as every bit of defensive uncertainty from the opposition.

People often voiced similar concerns about Kaberle, and it never impacted his ability to be part of a very productive PP in Toronto. As long as there are multiple pass options, it won't be an issue. On top of that, Kadri has good enough offensive instincts and a good enough shot that, should teams back off like that, he'll make them pay for it. Other teams are aware of that, as well.

 

[Kin]

As much as I'm interested to see more of Kadri on the point on the power play, the one concern of sorts that I have about it is that I can't really imagine Kadri taking a shot from the point.  While I don't think it's necessarily vital that a point man takes shots on the power play, I do feel that at the very least, the defending team needs to be forced into assuming that Kadri is a threat to shoot like any point man on the PP, and play him as such.  If Kadri continues to play the point, and continues to dish the puck off as he does so well, I expect defenders are gradually simply going to back off and play the pass.

It's not a big deal, but every little bit of time and space counts, as well as every bit of defensive uncertainty from the opposition.

Do you mean any shot from the point or specifically that he's a threat to take a slapshot? Because lots of successful PP quarterbacks haven't really been the bomb it from the point types and I don't know why you couldn't imagine Kadri taking any shots from the point.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

As much as I'm interested to see more of Kadri on the point on the power play, the one concern of sorts that I have about it is that I can't really imagine Kadri taking a shot from the point.  While I don't think it's necessarily vital that a point man takes shots on the power play, I do feel that at the very least, the defending team needs to be forced into assuming that Kadri is a threat to shoot like any point man on the PP, and play him as such.  If Kadri continues to play the point, and continues to dish the puck off as he does so well, I expect defenders are gradually simply going to back off and play the pass.

It's not a big deal, but every little bit of time and space counts, as well as every bit of defensive uncertainty from the opposition.

Do you mean any shot from the point or specifically that he's a threat to take a slapshot? Because lots of successful PP quarterbacks haven't really been the bomb it from the point types and I don't know why you couldn't imagine Kadri taking any shots from the point.

Okay, sure, I can imagine in my head Kadri taking a point shot.  It's just his approach is almost always to finesse the puck to the net, either by carrying it or by passing it.  Most of his goals are from in close, and those in which he sets up a shot from moderate distance are generally wrist shots up high.  Ideally, I'd like to see his point shots low and hard, though I wouldn't be surpassed to see some "pass-shots" directed to the net.  busta's mention of Kaberle is probably a fair one, and ultimately I'm sure if given time, Kadri will make good passing and shooting decisions.  I'm just curious overall to see how he plays the point, how teams adapt to him, and how his play on the point may evolve.

 

[cw]

As much as I'm interested to see more of Kadri on the point on the power play, the one concern of sorts that I have about it is that I can't really imagine Kadri taking a shot from the point.  While I don't think it's necessarily vital that a point man takes shots on the power play, I do feel that at the very least, the defending team needs to be forced into assuming that Kadri is a threat to shoot like any point man on the PP, and play him as such.  If Kadri continues to play the point, and continues to dish the puck off as he does so well, I expect defenders are gradually simply going to back off and play the pass.

It's not a big deal, but every little bit of time and space counts, as well as every bit of defensive uncertainty from the opposition.

People often voiced similar concerns about Kaberle, and it never impacted his ability to be part of a very productive PP in Toronto. As long as there are multiple pass options, it won't be an issue. On top of that, Kadri has good enough offensive instincts and a good enough shot that, should teams back off like that, he'll make them pay for it. Other teams are aware of that, as well.

I'm a little concerned with them giving up short handed goals while he's back there. Kaberle was very concerned with puck possession/turn overs. I'm not convinced Kadri is the same make up and therefore, more of a risk that way.

 

[TML fan]

Kadri also has a pretty weak shot by NHL standards. I don't know if I'd even want him shooting.

 

[freer]

As much as I'm interested to see more of Kadri on the point on the power play, the one concern of sorts that I have about it is that I can't really imagine Kadri taking a shot from the point.  While I don't think it's necessarily vital that a point man takes shots on the power play, I do feel that at the very least, the defending team needs to be forced into assuming that Kadri is a threat to shoot like any point man on the PP, and play him as such.  If Kadri continues to play the point, and continues to dish the puck off as he does so well, I expect defenders are gradually simply going to back off and play the pass.

It's not a big deal, but every little bit of time and space counts, as well as every bit of defensive uncertainty from the opposition.

People often voiced similar concerns about Kaberle, and it never impacted his ability to be part of a very productive PP in Toronto. As long as there are multiple pass options, it won't be an issue. On top of that, Kadri has good enough offensive instincts and a good enough shot that, should teams back off like that, he'll make them pay for it. Other teams are aware of that, as well.

I'm a little concerned with them giving up short handed goals while he's back there. Kaberle was very concerned with puck possession/turn overs. I'm not convinced Kadri is the same make up and therefore, more of a risk that way.

While everyone knows I am not a kadri fan, they did score three PP in the last game. Lets give it a chance.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm a little concerned with them giving up short handed goals while he's back there. Kaberle was very concerned with puck possession/turn overs. I'm not convinced Kadri is the same make up and therefore, more of a risk that way.

Kadri's one of the team's best possession players this season and has vastly improved his defensive play/awareness. His speed also helps to negate a number of potential short-handed chances. If they stick with it, there will be some growing pains, but, I'm don't think it will be any worse than with anyone else who's been back there this season.

 

[herman]

Kadri's role on the PP is not as a primary shooting threat, but his ability to creatively dish the puck to the other 4 options on the ice. On the PP, puck movement is what will wear out the D and open up shooting lanes. He's not playing the point either, but rather the opposite half-board to Kessel, spreading out the box.

 

[Highlander]

Herman, congratulations on attaining Marlie status.  Your posts are a welcome addition to the site

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Herman, congratulations on attaining Marlie status.  Your posts are a welcome addition to the site

+1 Guy stands out as a solid member.