Preseason: Leafs @ Habs - Sept. 22nd, 7:30pm - TSN4, TSN 1050

[Bullfrog]

Yes, my understanding is it's basically to prevent being destroyed into the boards. Even if he does get the puck first if he can't carry or pass it out cleanly, he'll be pinned down by the forward. If he lets the forward go in, he can pin him down while help arrives.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Yeah I definitely see the reasoning, I just think that there have been a bunch of times where he had the clear edge on someone and then lets up to defend instead. I'm pretty comfortable in Jake beating guys in skating contests. Even if the forward does somehow have the ability to throw a hit on him after picking the puck up it'll likely draw a charging penalty anyway.

So really it's just a matter of him recognizing the situation he's in and picking his spots better, which I admit is a difficult split-second decision to make especially when there's a forward barrelling down on you.

 

[Frank E]

I'm excited to see what Gardiner and Rielly can do with a coach that really understand how to use them and how valuable their skills are.

I agree.  It's going to be great when Babcock reigns in Gardiner's stupid skate the puck up the ice approach.  I want him hitting center ice and dumping it into the offensive zone like a good like soldier.  None of this puck possession nonsense.

Yeah, I'm not with you guys on the Gardiner stuff.

Carlyle showed a ton of confidence in Gardiner, and played him a lot, even when he was struggling.  It's no secret that he was not great last year.

His possession numbers have been what most of you have been hanging your hats on when speaking positively of his play...those were mostly Carlyle-coached numbers.

Especially given those earlier years when he was given more rope, I think Gardiner has Carlyle to thank for his $25 million dollar deal.  I hope he improves this year, but I still think the problem is between his ears, and not the style of coaching.

EDIT: $20 million dollar deal

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yeah I definitely see the reasoning, I just think that there have been a bunch of times where he had the clear edge on someone and then lets up to defend instead. I'm pretty comfortable in Jake beating guys in skating contests. Even if the forward does somehow have the ability to throw a hit on him after picking the puck up it'll likely draw a charging penalty anyway.

I'd be more worried about him being injured since he's not the biggest/strongest guy out there.  But yeah, there are definitely times where he could probably use his skating ability more.  Maybe it's a confidence thing or a combination of confidence/coaching.  Babcock could have an impact there.

 

[herman]

Yeah I definitely see the reasoning, I just think that there have been a bunch of times where he had the clear edge on someone and then lets up to defend instead. I'm pretty comfortable in Jake beating guys in skating contests. Even if the forward does somehow have the ability to throw a hit on him after picking the puck up it'll likely draw a charging penalty anyway.

I'd be more worried about him being injured since he's not the biggest/strongest guy out there.  But yeah, there are definitely times where he could probably use his skating ability more.  Maybe it's a confidence thing or a combination of confidence/coaching.  Babcock could have an impact there.

What's clear cut from a view above the ice might not be as clear down where Gardiner is chasing down the puck.

What I've really liked out of his game, especially in this exhibition game vs the Habs, was his ability to maintain possession after a breakout/incursion is stymied. If he gets held up at the blue or red line, he just curls away and resets the play, or stalls for a line change. Kadri, Rielly, and Nylander do this quite well too.

 

[bustaheims]

Yeah, I'm not with you guys on the Gardiner stuff.

Carlyle showed a ton of confidence in Gardiner, and played him a lot, even when he was struggling.  It's no secret that he was not great last year.

His possession numbers have been what most of you have been hanging your hats on when speaking positively of his play...those were mostly Carlyle-coached numbers.

Especially given those earlier years when he was given more rope, I think Gardiner has Carlyle to thank for his $25 million dollar deal.  I hope he improves this year, but I still think the problem is between his ears, and not the style of coaching.

EDIT: $20 million dollar deal

It's less about trust and more about usage. As L K pointed out, Carlyle had Gardiner dumping the puck in instead of skating it in. One of Gardiner's best assets is his skating ability. Carlyle hated when his defencemen skated with the puck. So, of course, Gardiner is going to look bad in that situation. You're taking away a huge strength of his in order to facilitate a poorly designed system. Look the difference between how Gardiner played under Wilson - when he looked like a potential top pairing defenceman - to how he played under Carlyle - when he looked lost at times. To me, that's a clear indication of coaching. I don't think it's much of a coincidence that Gardiner's best play under Carlyle was in the playoffs when he was allowed to play his game rather than Carlyle's.

And, for the record, I think he has the season under Wilson to thank for his contract. It was signed with that potential in mind.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Technically, he has Dubas to thank for his contract. The Leafs were discussing short-term deals before he was hired.

 

[bustaheims]

Technically, he has Dubas to thank for his contract. The Leafs were discussing short-term deals before he was hired.

That, too. I think, really, his contract is largely in spite of Carlyle, rather than thanks to him.

 

[Frank E]

Yeah, I'm not with you guys on the Gardiner stuff.

Carlyle showed a ton of confidence in Gardiner, and played him a lot, even when he was struggling.  It's no secret that he was not great last year.

His possession numbers have been what most of you have been hanging your hats on when speaking positively of his play...those were mostly Carlyle-coached numbers.

Especially given those earlier years when he was given more rope, I think Gardiner has Carlyle to thank for his $25 million dollar deal.  I hope he improves this year, but I still think the problem is between his ears, and not the style of coaching.

EDIT: $20 million dollar deal

It's less about trust and more about usage. As L K pointed out, Carlyle had Gardiner dumping the puck in instead of skating it in. One of Gardiner's best assets is his skating ability. Carlyle hated when his defencemen skated with the puck. So, of course, Gardiner is going to look bad in that situation. You're taking away a huge strength of his in order to facilitate a poorly designed system. Look the difference between how Gardiner played under Wilson - when he looked like a potential top pairing defenceman - to how he played under Carlyle - when he looked lost at times. To me, that's a clear indication of coaching. I don't think it's much of a coincidence that Gardiner's best play under Carlyle was in the playoffs when he was allowed to play his game rather than Carlyle's.

And, for the record, I think he has the season under Wilson to thank for his contract. It was signed with that potential in mind.

Gardiner showed a very strong Corsi Relative number that ranked him among the highest on the team.

If he was always chipping in the puck, I doubt that would be the case.  And further to that, if he was, it was working.  No?

 

[bustaheims]

Gardiner showed a very strong Corsi Relative number that ranked him among the highest on the team.

If he was always chipping in the puck, I doubt that would be the case.  And further to that, if he was, it was working.  No?

Well, it not sure if it worked in terms of actually creating a ton of offence. I think his shot suppression abilities are under-rated, which I think helped play into those numbers. When he did get the puck, he generally had a pretty good idea of what to do with it, and his skating allowed him to get to more pucks than most of the team.

 

[Frank E]

Gardiner showed a very strong Corsi Relative number that ranked him among the highest on the team.

If he was always chipping in the puck, I doubt that would be the case.  And further to that, if he was, it was working.  No?

Well, it not sure if it worked in terms of actually creating a ton of offence. I think his shot suppression abilities are under-rated, which I think helped play into those numbers. When he did get the puck, he generally had a pretty good idea of what to do with it, and his skating allowed him to get to more pucks than most of the team.

Well, his SH% was apparently much lower than a typical season for him, so that may be what led to his poorer offensive numbers this past season.

Regardless, the numbers seem to show that he created a lot of offense potential, and that flies in the face of what was suggested as him becoming a dump-it-in defender.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Regardless, the numbers seem to show that he created a lot of offense potential, and that flies in the face of what was suggested as him becoming a dump-it-in defender.

His positive possession numbers, at least relatively speaking, were actually more due to his shot suppression rates not his shot creation ones. Over the last 2 seasons Gardiner has had a pretty similar CF/60 rate than Phaneuf, Franson, and Rielly. His CA/60 rate has been what's made him stand out in terms of possession.