Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[bustaheims]

I don't know how it can not be argued that right now this is the worst the Leafs have looked since pre-CuJo.  Seriously - put this performance in front of the goaltending from between the last two lockouts and I don't even want to know what the scores would look like.

We lost with some regularity in those seasons 7-0, 8-1, etc with a team that I think competed better than they have at all this season.

Well, if these efforts were happening during Burke's first few years with the team, Boston would be enjoying having Hall and RNH/Landeskog on their team right now. This many shots on that goaltending . . . that's a recipe for 30th in the league.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

You're a little too hard on Carlyle for anything...that's not bad advice for any young d-man with offensive skills.

I see it in the games when they're trying to make something out of nothing, and they get into trouble.

I mean, yes and no. It really depends on how they're framing it. If they're trying to get the player to focus on making the smart play instead of trying to force things, then, yes, absolutely, that's good advice for everyone - especially in the defensive zone. However, if they're trying to limit their creativity and such on the offensive side of the puck, then, not so much.

We'll agree. 

I won't give Carlyle credit for much this year, but I will say that they're trying very hard to develop Gardiner.  I wish I could see more progress in his game though.

You mean other than the fact that he's by far our best passing and puck-carrying defenceman, and the only one seemingly capable of resisting Carlyle's idiotic defensive system which seems to basically amount to  "dump and chase"?

Carlyle has essentially neutered Dion and Cody's offensive games, forcing them and the other D to play positional, chip-it-out hockey that doesn't suit the skill-set of the team.  He has a very fast team looking extremely slow most nights, and honestly that's due to instructions like "simplify your game" as much as anything else.

This is the NHL and the Leafs are a skilled team with good goaltending. If simplifying their game means getting the puck out without possession, dumping it in, and hoping that the other team gives it away, then the last the they should be doing is simplifying their game.

Carlyle continues to say teams don't score off the rush in the NHL anymore, when his team was able to do just that last year.  Dumping the puck in/out doesn't work very well for this team and I would love to see them get back to what was working last year.

 

[bustaheims]

Carlyle continues to say teams don't score off the rush in the NHL anymore, when his team was able to do just that last year.

It's also pretty much the only way the team scores at even strength this season.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Carlyle continues to say teams don't score off the rush in the NHL anymore, when his team was able to do just that last year.

It's also pretty much the only way the team scores at even strength this season.

That's my point.  I don't understand why he keeps espousing that view when his team was arguably one of the best at doing just that in the past.  I would understand if his current strategy was working, but it ain't.

 

[princedpw]

So, apparently, before tonight, the leafs were on a record-setting pace in terms of giving up shots:

http://theleafsnation.com/2013/12/11/how-bad-is-the-bleeding

On pace to give up the most shots per game since '87.  Now combine that with the fact that they also take the least shots per game ... and it is mind-blowingly bad.

There is no question this is at least in part, a coaching problem.  Talent-wise, this team isn't historically bad.

Of course, tonight for some reason they turned it around against an excellent team.  If only they would play Liles instead of Fraser.

Edit:  oops it seems I'm late to the party posting this one.  But ouch, what a bunch of numbers!

 

[Kin]

On pace to give up the most shots per game since '87.  Now combine that with the fact that they also take the least shots per game ... and it is mind-blowingly bad.

There is no question this is at least in part, a coaching problem.  Talent-wise, this team isn't historically bad.

See, I feel like this is what is meant when some people say that the problem with the possession based numbers is the emphasis people are putting on them. The only way that your second paragraph follows there is if you believe that the only way that talent is expressed on a hockey team is through possession of the puck and the shots that generates.

Because otherwise some people, people who are less enamored with those numbers, would say that shots for and shots against are an aspect of team play but it's one of many and the fact that, talent-wise, the Maple Leafs aren't historically bad is accurately reflected in the fact that their  record of games won and lost isn't historically bad. In fact it's not bad at all. It's decidedly mediocre.

Teams can be bad at certain things and good enough at others to compensate. It's true in any sport. A baseball team can have a terrible pitching staff and win, a football team can have a lousy defense and win and a basketball team can not shoot the 3 and get wins. That doesn't diminish the importance of any of those things unless you believe that those things should, in and of themselves, determine wins and losses.

The Maple Leafs have great goaltending. They have a lot of speed that lets them score goals off the rush. Those things are elements of their talent and that's what has kept them in games. It hasn't been as effective of late, in part because of the injuries they've suffered, but it still hasn't been historically bad.

 

[Corn Flake]

On pace to give up the most shots per game since '87.  Now combine that with the fact that they also take the least shots per game ... and it is mind-blowingly bad.

There is no question this is at least in part, a coaching problem.  Talent-wise, this team isn't historically bad.

See, I feel like this is what is meant when some people say that the problem with the possession based numbers is the emphasis people are putting on them. The only way that your second paragraph follows there is if you believe that the only way that talent is expressed on a hockey team is through possession of the puck and the shots that generates.

Because otherwise people, with people who are less enamored with those numbers, would say that shots for and shots against are an aspect of team play but it's one of many and the fact that, talent-wise, the Maple Leafs aren't historically bad is accurately reflected in the fact that their  record of games won and lost isn't historically bad. In fact it's not bad at all. It's decidedly mediocre.

Teams can be bad at certain things and good enough at others to compensate. It's true in any sport. A baseball team can have a terrible pitching staff and win, a football team can have a lousy defense and win and a basketball team can not shoot the 3 and get wins. That doesn't diminish the importance of any of those things unless you believe that those things should, in and of themselves, determine wins and losses.

The Maple Leafs have great goaltending. They have a lot of speed that lets them score goals off the rush. Those things are elements of their talent and that's what has kept them in games. It hasn't been as effective of late, in part because of the injuries they've suffered, but it still hasn't been historically bad.

*slow clap*

 

[Redleaf]

On pace to give up the most shots per game since '87.  Now combine that with the fact that they also take the least shots per game ... and it is mind-blowingly bad.

There is no question this is at least in part, a coaching problem.  Talent-wise, this team isn't historically bad.

See, I feel like this is what is meant when some people say that the problem with the possession based numbers is the emphasis people are putting on them. The only way that your second paragraph follows there is if you believe that the only way that talent is expressed on a hockey team is through possession of the puck and the shots that generates.

Because otherwise some people, people who are less enamored with those numbers, would say that shots for and shots against are an aspect of team play but it's one of many and the fact that, talent-wise, the Maple Leafs aren't historically bad is accurately reflected in the fact that their  record of games won and lost isn't historically bad. In fact it's not bad at all. It's decidedly mediocre.

Teams can be bad at certain things and good enough at others to compensate. It's true in any sport. A baseball team can have a terrible pitching staff and win, a football team can have a lousy defense and win and a basketball team can not shoot the 3 and get wins. That doesn't diminish the importance of any of those things unless you believe that those things should, in and of themselves, determine wins and losses.

The Maple Leafs have great goaltending. They have a lot of speed that lets them score goals off the rush. Those things are elements of their talent and that's what has kept them in games. It hasn't been as effective of late, in part because of the injuries they've suffered, but it still hasn't been historically bad.

Agreed. I think Nonis needs to find the right trades/players to augment those strengths and balance out the lineup a little more. Unlike the Kings, this team is still in the early stages of a work in progress. I think what's needed now is 2 or 3 skilled veteran, defensive-type players. A top 2 defenseman, and a defensively responsible, high end centre (Stastny comes to mind) would go a long way to reaching that next plateau.

 

[Redleaf]

I watched his post game interview last night, and this popped in my head....

The heat is on, on the street
Inside your head, on every beat
And the beat's so loud, deep inside
The pressure's high, just to stay alive
'Cause the heat is...thump...thump...thump...thump...ON

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

2 regulation wins in their last 20 games.  Basically a quarter of the season with 2 regulation wins.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

2 regulation wins in their last 20 games.  Basically a quarter of the season with 2 regulation wins.

I think it's 2 in the last 19 games, unless you're predicting a loss against Chicago which would be fair. Their last 4 regulation wins have all come against teams currently in the bottom-5 in the league (EDM, CGY, BUF, NYI). If they happen to lose to Chicago and Pittsburgh and beat Florida, they could get all 5.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

2 regulation wins in their last 20 games.  Basically a quarter of the season with 2 regulation wins.

I think it's 2 in the last 19 games, unless you're predicting a loss against Chicago would would be fair. Their last 4 regulation wins have all come against teams currently in the bottom-5 in the league (EDM, CGY, BUF, NYI). If they happen to lose to Chicago and Pittsburgh and beat Florida, they could get all 5.

Yep, you're right.  It's 3 regulation wins in 20, 4 in 21.  But we'll see what happens next.

EDIT: Thank god for the OT/SO points I suppose.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

EDIT: Thank god for the OT/SO points I suppose.

Could bite us in the ass when it comes to the tie break though. All of the teams below us have either won all of their games in regulation+OT or all but one.

 

[lc9]

Getting rather discouraging watching this team.  Living in the states I don't follow much of media goings on, but from a pure hockey stand point...this team puts an inferior product on the ice pretty much every night. 

I don't think this is due to lack of talent, that's not to say the Leafs are full of world beaters, but they play below their capability.  Every night is the same thing, completely hemmed into their own zone and then dump and chase regardless of situation. 

Clarkson has been a disappointment, he looks lost out there.  I wonder if he is going through the Grabovski and MacArthur funk induced by Carlye.

Carlye is a bad coach for this group.  The effort simply isn't there to win the puck battles.  Other teams just assert their will and dominate the puck possession.  There doesn't seem to be any continuity to the message Carlye preaches (from what I can tell in his post game comments) and the play on the ice. 

3 regulation wins in 19 games?  That is some bad hockey.  Just not a very good hockey team right now.  I have to imagine Nonis is getting rather impatient seeing his team get walloped every night.

 

[Arn]

.  I have to imagine Nonis is getting rather impatient seeing his team get walloped every night.

Fingers crossed.

I genuinely wonder how much the winter classic/hbo cameras has to do with it, if anything. Can you sack and replace a coach in front of such an audience?

Other (on paper inferior) teams have looked better and replaced their coaching with positive effects in the past.

 

[Erndog]

We are about to lose to Chicago and most like Pittsburgh....

2 regulation wins in 21 games against the Isles and Sabres.  The 2 worst teams in the league.

I don't know how any GM can sit back and not do anything of significance after that.

 

[TML fan]

We are about to lose to Chicago and most like Pittsburgh....

2 regulation wins in 21 games against the Isles and Sabres.  The 2 worst teams in the league.

I don't know how any GM can sit back and not do anything of significance after that.

Yeah. It would be pretty hard for me to sit through the rest of this season knowing Nonis did nothing to try and save it.

 

[nutman]

Ok even I am having a hard time watching this team. I am questioning  the coaching on this team.

 

[bustaheims]

Honestly, when I hear Carlyle speak about the issue with the team, all I can think of is this:

We tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas.

 

[Erndog]

Honestly, when I hear Carlyle speak about the issue with the team, all I can think of is this:

We tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas.

HA!