Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[Redleaf]

Man, you guys are rough. Teams have been able to win some of the biggest tournaments on goaltending alone. It wouldn't upset me one iota if thats the major reason the Leafs end up with a cup. (Or even winning a round or two this year).

Goaltending has been the difference in a number of major tournaments, but no team has won anything meaningful playing this poorly defensively relative to their opponents.

There is no question the defense needs to be improved. I have been a huge proponent of upgrading the blueline with more experienced, shutdown guys as opposed to more point getters. I believe this will be improved in the coming seasons. It just can't all be fixed in a year or two. Unlike yourself, I don't blame Carlyle for the lack of mature, experienced defensemen he has at his disposal. These things take time, and really, we're not that far into an almost 'full on' rebuild. Patience. Patience. Patience.

 

[bustaheims]

There is no question the defense needs to be improved. I have been a huge proponent of upgrading the blueline with more experienced, shutdown guys as opposed to more point getters. I believe this will be improved in the coming seasons. It just can't all be fixed in a year or two. Unlike yourself, I don't blame Carlyle for the lack of mature, experienced defensemen he has at his disposal. These things take time, and really, we're not that far into an almost 'full on' rebuild. Patience. Patience. Patience.

Adding a shutdown guy or two to the blue line isn't going to fix the issues with the way the team plays defence. It's not solely the responsibility of the defencemen. In fact, the biggest issue with the team's defensive play is the forwards - and, outside of Kadri, Holland (who has been used pretty sparingly most of the season) and some guys who have seen most of their time on the 4th line, they're all experienced players. If the problem was just that Carlyle has had to run with 2 inexperienced defencemen (and, really, that's it - the rest of the defencemen that have played significant minutes this season are experienced guys), that would be one thing, but the defensive issues are team wide, glaring and consistent from line to line - and that makes it a system/tactics issue.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Man, you guys are rough. Teams have been able to win some of the biggest tournaments on goaltending alone. It wouldn't upset me one iota if thats the major reason the Leafs end up with a cup. (Or even winning a round or two this year).

Goaltending has been the difference in a number of major tournaments, but no team has won anything meaningful playing this poorly defensively relative to their opponents.

There is no question the defense needs to be improved. I have been a huge proponent of upgrading the blueline with more experienced, shutdown guys as opposed to more point getters. I believe this will be improved in the coming seasons. It just can't all be fixed in a year or two. Unlike yourself, I don't blame Carlyle for the lack of mature, experienced defensemen he has at his disposal. These things take time, and really, we're not that far into an almost 'full on' rebuild. Patience. Patience. Patience.

How can it be this bad though?  They're on pace right now to give up the 3rd most shots in NHL history.  The 3 teams they are battling it out with for that honour?

74-75 Caps: 8-67-5
72-73 Isles: 12-60-6
92-93 Sharks: 11-71-2

All are expansion teams (that was SJ's 2nd season, but actually worst than their first) in their first seasons. 

This is not a team that should be giving up shots on goal at THOSE levels, that's just insane.  Almost completely wasting great goaltending, because they need it just to stay above water.

 

[Kin]

These things take time, and really, we're not that far into an almost 'full on' rebuild. Patience. Patience. Patience.

The team never had a full on rebuild. Not even almost of one. The team had some lousy years but that's not the same thing. They've continually banked on the talent level of the team improving to Stanley Cup caliber by means of Free Agency or hoping that a Joe Thornton-type trade falls out of the sky and what we're seeing right now is that it doesn't work. The team needs to build a talent base to compete with teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago if they want a realistic chance of a cup and what they've done has left very few avenues for that to even be a possibility.

 

[Redleaf]

Man, you guys are rough. Teams have been able to win some of the biggest tournaments on goaltending alone. It wouldn't upset me one iota if thats the major reason the Leafs end up with a cup. (Or even winning a round or two this year).

Goaltending has been the difference in a number of major tournaments, but no team has won anything meaningful playing this poorly defensively relative to their opponents.

There is no question the defense needs to be improved. I have been a huge proponent of upgrading the blueline with more experienced, shutdown guys as opposed to more point getters. I believe this will be improved in the coming seasons. It just can't all be fixed in a year or two. Unlike yourself, I don't blame Carlyle for the lack of mature, experienced defensemen he has at his disposal. These things take time, and really, we're not that far into an almost 'full on' rebuild. Patience. Patience. Patience.

How can it be this bad though?  They're on pace right now to give up the 3rd most shots in NHL history.  The 3 teams they are battling it out with for that honour?

74-75 Caps: 8-67-5
72-73 Isles: 12-60-6
92-93 Sharks: 11-71-2

All are expansion teams (that was SJ's 2nd season, but actually worst than their first) in their first seasons. 

This is not a team that should be giving up shots on goal at THOSE levels, that's just insane.  Almost completely wasting great goaltending, because they need it just to stay above water.

I agree, and I do believe some of the blame should be on Carlyle's shoulders. No doubt. Nonis also needs to be held accountable for placing too much of a premium on offense from the blueline and not enough on defense. We have too many offensive guys on the back end giving the puck away. That is the major issue, and Carlyle can try and teach guys like Franson until he's blue in the face. Franson ain't getting it. X beside his name.

My point is it doesn't matter who's coaching some of these guys, they can't handle their defensive responsibilities. Add that to the fact we have two rookies playing big minutes in Reilly and Gardiner, and we have 3 out of 6 not ready to defend their own zone. Unfortunately there is no one else currently in the system that can keep the puck away out of their zone. That does not fall solely on the coaching staff. That is part coaching, part GM and mostly the players.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

So nothing short of the cup deviates you from that position?  Their play on the ice supersedes a winning record, a playoff berth and winning a round or two in the playoffs? I think I'm out of words.

When they're winning because of goaltending while they're still playing poorly, yes. Their play on the ice absolutely supersedes their record, because it's their play on the ice that is really indicative of how well the team is performing. Winning a round or two because their goaltending steals them enough games is not going to change my position on the coach. As far as I'm concerned, this team is under performing relative to talent on the roster, and, until that stops, the coach will very much be in my crosshairs.

I'm in this camp too, and it's mostly because Carlyle has had more than enough time to fix the issues with this team and we're still seeing the same problems; giveaways, low offensive zone time, sloppy defensive play. It's not all on the coach, but at some point we have to ask what the issue really is. Is the team ignoring him? Are they playing the way he's asking them to play? This is a team that's continually outshot and we haven't seen any improvements over the course of the season. So what gives? Carlyle has no qualms with calling out his underperforming players, but what of him?

I don't know if he's incompetent, if he's being ignored or if he's misusing his players, but I do know that the Leafs can't continue to play like this and expect to win hockey games.

Obviously, despite saying that the problem doesn't fall all on him, you're asserting that it does.

Basically you're saying "It's not all his fault but it is all his fault really."..

I have some major issues with the coaching decisions being made. One of them being pulling the goalie with 2:42 left in the game last night.

BUT, the fact that the team came out looking like they'd rather be playing canasta than hockey does not only fall on the coaches shoulders. It simply can't. These are professional athletes paid to do one thing..play hockey. Last night, and on several occasions this year, they decided that doing what they're paid to do didn't interest them. That's as much of a character issue as it is a coaching issue.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Man, you guys are rough. Teams have been able to win some of the biggest tournaments on goaltending alone. It wouldn't upset me one iota if thats the major reason the Leafs end up with a cup. (Or even winning a round or two this year).

Goaltending has been the difference in a number of major tournaments, but no team has won anything meaningful playing this poorly defensively relative to their opponents.

There is no question the defense needs to be improved. I have been a huge proponent of upgrading the blueline with more experienced, shutdown guys as opposed to more point getters. I believe this will be improved in the coming seasons. It just can't all be fixed in a year or two. Unlike yourself, I don't blame Carlyle for the lack of mature, experienced defensemen he has at his disposal. These things take time, and really, we're not that far into an almost 'full on' rebuild. Patience. Patience. Patience.

How can it be this bad though?  They're on pace right now to give up the 3rd most shots in NHL history.  The 3 teams they are battling it out with for that honour?

74-75 Caps: 8-67-5
72-73 Isles: 12-60-6
92-93 Sharks: 11-71-2

All are expansion teams (that was SJ's 2nd season, but actually worst than their first) in their first seasons. 

This is not a team that should be giving up shots on goal at THOSE levels, that's just insane.  Almost completely wasting great goaltending, because they need it just to stay above water.

I'm wondering, if the Leafs do manage to set a record in shots against (third is bad enough) will Carlyle still have Nonis' unwaivering confidence?

 

[#1PilarFan]

Man, you guys are rough. Teams have been able to win some of the biggest tournaments on goaltending alone. It wouldn't upset me one iota if thats the major reason the Leafs end up with a cup. (Or even winning a round or two this year).

Goaltending has been the difference in a number of major tournaments, but no team has won anything meaningful playing this poorly defensively relative to their opponents.

There is no question the defense needs to be improved. I have been a huge proponent of upgrading the blueline with more experienced, shutdown guys as opposed to more point getters. I believe this will be improved in the coming seasons. It just can't all be fixed in a year or two. Unlike yourself, I don't blame Carlyle for the lack of mature, experienced defensemen he has at his disposal. These things take time, and really, we're not that far into an almost 'full on' rebuild. Patience. Patience. Patience.

How can it be this bad though?  They're on pace right now to give up the 3rd most shots in NHL history.  The 3 teams they are battling it out with for that honour?

74-75 Caps: 8-67-5
72-73 Isles: 12-60-6
92-93 Sharks: 11-71-2

All are expansion teams (that was SJ's 2nd season, but actually worst than their first) in their first seasons. 

This is not a team that should be giving up shots on goal at THOSE levels, that's just insane.  Almost completely wasting great goaltending, because they need it just to stay above water.

I'm wondering, if the Leafs do manage to set a record in shots against (third is bad enough) will Carlyle still have Nonis' unwaivering confidence?

I don't know that Carlyle does have Nonis' unwavering confidence.

Leafs on a roll since Nonis?s stern warning

This was only a couple weeks ago and the atmosphere in the dressing room couldn?t have been any different than it is right now. Tensions were extremely high following a couple embarrassing losses and, according to one confidant, coach Randy Carlyle even feared that his job might be in danger. A few of his players had good reason to wonder if they might be shipped out of town, too.

 

[#1PilarFan]

Obviously, despite saying that the problem doesn't fall all on him, you're asserting that it does.

Basically you're saying "It's not all his fault but it is all his fault really."..

Well, no, seeing as how I didn't say that, nor did I really imply it. He certainly should take much of the blame though. If the players aren't listening to him, then he should be fired. If they are listening to him, and these are the results we're getting, then he should be fired. A lot of people are accountable for the Leafs struggles, but none moreso than Carlyle.

I have some major issues with the coaching decisions being made. One of them being pulling the goalie with 2:42 left in the game last night.

BUT, the fact that the team came out looking like they'd rather be playing canasta than hockey does not only fall on the coaches shoulders. It simply can't. These are professional athletes paid to do one thing..play hockey. Last night, and on several occasions this year, they decided that doing what they're paid to do didn't interest them. That's as much of a character issue as it is a coaching issue.

Well, if it's a character issue then it IS a coaching issue. The coach also gets paid to do one thing; communicate his strategy effectively to his players. Now, like I said, they may not be listening but that means he's not doing his job. If they are listening, then he's really not doing his job. If this was a ten game stretch of allowing an unholy amount of shots, I'd be more forgiving, but alas it is not. We've been talking about this since the beginning of the season and the only thing that has saved Carlyle is the fact that his team is comprised of some pretty good players who have managed to succeed and win games despite the fact that the team plays some pretty questionable hockey.

 

[Kin]

We've been talking about this since the beginning of the season and the only thing that has saved Carlyle is the fact that his team is comprised of some pretty good players who have managed to succeed and win games despite the fact that the team plays some pretty questionable hockey.

I feel, though, that this is one of the problems with this tunnel-visioned approach to criticizing Carlyle. We talk about the effects a coach can and should have on players, you call it communicating, but what's never talked about is that on an individual level a lot of the guys on this team have considerably improved their games under Carlyle. Kessel, Kadri, Bozak, JVR, Bernier, Reimer...all are guys who we've talked about as having significantly better individual performances since Carlyle took over.

I don't think a coach should take too much of the credit for those things and because those are all young players I realize there's going to be a tendency to say that improvement was unavoidable but we've seen coaches who didn't get through to young players. Carlyle doesn't seem to be that. Guys are taking steps forward under him.

I get that strategy is important but I don't think anyone would say that it's the be all and end all of coaching and, beyond shots for and allowed which is a single metric, there's a lot to be encouraged by under Carlyle.

 

[bustaheims]

I get that strategy is important but I don't think anyone would say that it's the be all and end all of coaching and, beyond shots for and allowed which is a single metric, there's a lot to be encouraged by under Carlyle.

Outside of some improvement on the individual level, is there really? The PK is back down to the same level it was under Wilson. Despite the significant better goaltending, they're giving up goals at roughly the same rate they did under Wilson. The offence is producing at roughly same rate they did under Wilson. They give up the 1st goal at roughly the same rate they did in Wilson's final season. They're on pace to take more penalties than they did under Wilson. Their 5 on 5 ratio is roughly the same as it was under Wilson.

Honestly, other than success in the shootout and some improved individual performances, I fail to see anything to really be encouraged about under Carlyle

 

[#1PilarFan]

I feel, though, that this is one of the problems with this tunnel-visioned approach to criticizing Carlyle. We talk about the effects a coach can and should have on players, you call it communicating, but what's never talked about is that on an individual level a lot of the guys on this team have considerably improved their games under Carlyle. Kessel, Kadri, Bozak, JVR, Bernier, Reimer...all are guys who we've talked about as having significantly better individual performances since Carlyle took over.

I don't think a coach should take too much of the credit for those things and because those are all young players I realize there's going to be a tendency to say that improvement was unavoidable but we've seen coaches who didn't get through to young players. Carlyle doesn't seem to be that. Guys are taking steps forward under him.

That's tough, because I can't really argue with what might or would have happened had, say, Wilson been in charge of those guys at the same time.

However, four of those guys you've named were drafted 11th, or higher. They weren't reclamation projects or journeymen, but, young, highly rated players. While those guys don't always work out, I don't know that it's enough to keep Carlyle around just because he didn't screw up our young guys. Bernier especially hasn't really been around long enough to say that Carlyle has or hasn't affected him, and I think there's an argument to be made that Reimer really hasn't gotten better under Carlyle. Even under Wilson, he always seemed like a 1B guy who might be able to hold it together for a season.

The one guy I'm really disappointed in his Gardiner, who continues to make the same stupid plays night in and night out. I understand that he's young and that where his game is at right now is conducive to giveaways and mistakes but the fact is, I don't think, nor do I think there's any metric to suggest otherwise, that he has gotten better and that's the type of player that should be improved by the coaching staff.

Taking Kadri for example, when you're drafted 7th overall, and you're putting up solid back to back seasons, I don't know how much of that is on the player and how much of that is on the staff.

 

[TML fan]

I think Carlyle has done some good things, particularly the way he's handled certain players. On the other hand he's mishandled certain players as well, and his overall approach to the game is outdated. He's shown no adaptability in his style. He doesn't coach to the strengths of his team. With Carlyle, it's like using a hammer when a screwdriver is clearly called for, and then blaming the hammer when it doesn't work.

 

[Kin]

Outside of some improvement on the individual level, is there really?

Admittedly, some of it is hard to separate from being encouraged by individual gains(the PP, for example) but the "a lot" that I was referring to there was really just about the fact that I think that a lot of the players on the team have played significantly better under Carlyle.

But that said, I remain convinced that Carlyle has just done more or less what Wilson did which is coach the team to results that reflect its talent level. He just may be doing it by virtue of getting through to individuals rather than Wilson's strategic mastery. 

 

[Kin]

However, four of those guys you've named were drafted 11th, or higher. They weren't reclamation projects or journeymen, but, young, highly rated players. While those guys don't always work out, I don't know that it's enough to keep Carlyle around just because he didn't screw up our young guys.

To clarify, I still have absolutely no position on firing Carlyle or not firing him and my post shouldn't be read as advocating his continued employment. He's got a positive record of developing young players though.

 

[bustaheims]

But that said, I remain convinced that Carlyle has just done more or less what Wilson did which is coach the team to results that reflect its talent level. He just may be doing it by virtue of getting through to individuals rather than Wilson's strategic mastery.

I just can't agree with that. Considering the vast improvement in net from Wilson's tenure to Carlyle's, I'd say the fact that he's only achieved the similar levels of performance tells me that he is not, in fact, coaching the team to results that reflect its talent level.

 

[Kin]

I just can't agree with that. Considering the vast improvement in net from Wilson's tenure to Carlyle's, I'd say the fact that he's only achieved the similar levels of performance tells me that he is not, in fact, coaching the team to results that reflect its talent level.

"Results" in that context should be read as their won-lost record which if you genuinely think is markedly poorer than what the talent level of this team should result in will have to remain a spot of disagreement between us.

And we used to agree on so much.

 

[bustaheims]

"Results" in that context should be read as their won-lost record which if you genuinely think is markedly poorer than what the talent level of this team should result in will have to remain a spot of disagreement between us.

And we used to agree on so much.

I feel that their record in regulation should be significantly better than it is now. I prefer to take shootouts out of the equation when looking at the team's performance/record. As far as I'm concerned, this is not a team that should be below .500 in games that don't go to a shootout. And, yeah, I think the talent level on the roster should have also been able to generate a couple more wins along the way as well.

 

[Kin]

I prefer to take shootouts out of the equation when looking at the team's performance/record.

I can understand that as sort of a general rule but I think that here specifically the two major elements that go into shootouts, having guys who are good at putting the puck in the net and the individual play of goaltenders, happen to be the two things that I think the Leafs excel at. For that reason I can't help but feel that at least some of the shootout success has to be attributed to the talent on the team. Not entirely but enough so that, I'd guess, there's really not much of a gap between where you think the team should be in the standings and where I do.

 

[Bonsixx]

The calls for Carlyle's firing are hilarious. You do know it's not happening, right?

What does that have to do with discussing the merits of his coaching?

Nothing, obviously. Discussing things we have no control over is the point of this whole fan forum. But absolute statements like, "Fire Carlyle." seem kinda pointless when we all know it's not happening this season.

If they miss the playoffs, it's possible I suppose, but more likely he's going to be the coach to start next year as well. If the team starts poorly, then, maybe, he's toast. If the team looks a lot like it does this year, and like this year, has a winning record, then I sincerely doubt he's going anywhere.