Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[Tigger]

I don't know that Carlyle does have Nonis' unwavering confidence.

Leafs on a roll since Nonis?s stern warning

This was only a couple weeks ago and the atmosphere in the dressing room couldn?t have been any different than it is right now. Tensions were extremely high following a couple embarrassing losses and, according to one confidant, coach Randy Carlyle even feared that his job might be in danger. A few of his players had good reason to wonder if they might be shipped out of town, too.

Considering how all of that turned out, I'd say he probably does right now...

One thing I'll say, this is Randy's first full season as coach and the Leafs made the playoffs for the first time in forever last year, I think he gets this year, regardless.

 

[Leaflifer]

I don't know that Carlyle does have Nonis' unwavering confidence.

Leafs on a roll since Nonis?s stern warning

This was only a couple weeks ago and the atmosphere in the dressing room couldn?t have been any different than it is right now. Tensions were extremely high following a couple embarrassing losses and, according to one confidant, coach Randy Carlyle even feared that his job might be in danger. A few of his players had good reason to wonder if they might be shipped out of town, too.

Considering how all of that turned out, I'd say he probably does right now...

One thing I'll say, this is Randy's first full season as coach and the Leafs made the playoffs for the first time in forever last year, I think he gets this year, regardless.

In the blog, Lupul says,

?That?s where, especially veteran guys, have to step in and not let things go from bad to worse.?

I suspect this could be a deficiency with the Leafs. I just don't see a lot of leadership on that bench, and haven't for awhile.

 

[Tigger]

In the blog, Lupul says,

?That?s where, especially veteran guys, have to step in and not let things go from bad to worse.?

I suspect this could be a deficiency with the Leafs. I just don't see a lot of leadership on that bench, and haven't for awhile.

Could be, when I think of the Leafs I don't think 'grizzled vets'. 

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Obviously, despite saying that the problem doesn't fall all on him, you're asserting that it does.

Basically you're saying "It's not all his fault but it is all his fault really."..

Well, no, seeing as how I didn't say that, nor did I really imply it. He certainly should take much of the blame though. If the players aren't listening to him, then he should be fired. If they are listening to him, and these are the results we're getting, then he should be fired. A lot of people are accountable for the Leafs struggles, but none moreso than Carlyle.

I have some major issues with the coaching decisions being made. One of them being pulling the goalie with 2:42 left in the game last night.

BUT, the fact that the team came out looking like they'd rather be playing canasta than hockey does not only fall on the coaches shoulders. It simply can't. These are professional athletes paid to do one thing..play hockey. Last night, and on several occasions this year, they decided that doing what they're paid to do didn't interest them. That's as much of a character issue as it is a coaching issue.

Well, if it's a character issue then it IS a coaching issue. The coach also gets paid to do one thing; communicate his strategy effectively to his players. Now, like I said, they may not be listening but that means he's not doing his job. If they are listening, then he's really not doing his job. If this was a ten game stretch of allowing an unholy amount of shots, I'd be more forgiving, but alas it is not. We've been talking about this since the beginning of the season and the only thing that has saved Carlyle is the fact that his team is comprised of some pretty good players who have managed to succeed and win games despite the fact that the team plays some pretty questionable hockey.

Well perhaps you should go back and read your original post because it certainly seems to me that you're laying it directly at the feet of the coach. You're saying he should be fired no matter what. If it's a character issue that's his fault. If it's not a character issue it's his fault. You've also gone on to say that this team is winning despite him.

Did you ever stop to think that this team isn't comprised of as good of players as you think? I mean, we've had serious problems with just about every player so far this year short of Kessel, JvR and the two goalies.

Again, I think the playoffs last year raised expectations around here and in 'Leaf Nation' to an unreasonable point.

What the Leafs have on the ice is a mediocre team with good goaltending. They have the skill level to be a borderline playoff team.

Like I've said, I have issues with Carlyle's tactics but I also take issue with people seeing him as the reason this team isn't as good as they 'could be.' Personally I think they've played above themselves at points this year.

 

[#1PilarFan]

Well perhaps you should go back and read your original post because it certainly seems to me that you're laying it directly at the feet of the coach.

I was going to suggest you do the same thing.

You're saying he should be fired no matter what. If it's a character issue that's his fault. If it's not a character issue it's his fault.

Yeah, and I stand by that. If there's an issue in the locker room that prevents the Leafs from playing his style of hockey then he has failed in his job as a communicator. If they are playing his style of hockey, then he has failed as a strategist. Basically, what I'm saying is being ranked as one of the worst teams all time in SA is the fault of the coaching staff. Sure, the players bear some responsibility too, but I doubt they all got together and decided to try and break the all time record of shots allowed.

You've also gone on to say that this team is winning despite him.

When? Where? I said the team has had success despite playing lousy hockey. Not quite the same thing.

Did you ever stop to think that this team isn't comprised of as good of players as you think? I mean, we've had serious problems with just about every player so far this year short of Kessel, JvR and the two goalies.

Again, I think the playoffs last year raised expectations around here and in 'Leaf Nation' to an unreasonable point.

What the Leafs have on the ice is a mediocre team with good goaltending. They have the skill level to be a borderline playoff team.

Like I've said, I have issues with Carlyle's tactics but I also take issue with people seeing him as the reason this team isn't as good as they 'could be.' Personally I think they've played above themselves at points this year.

I never said this Leafs' team record should be better. I have said that I think they are extremely fortunate to be in the position that they're in, which is largely due to having very good goaltending and a couple great pieces up front.

The Leafs are dead last in the league in SA/g (36.3), 25th overall in GA (3.03), 28th overall in PK% (77.7) and 28th overall in PIM. But, hey, if that sounds like good coaching to you, then I don't know what I can say.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Well perhaps you should go back and read your original post because it certainly seems to me that you're laying it directly at the feet of the coach.

I was going to suggest you do the same thing.

You're saying he should be fired no matter what. If it's a character issue that's his fault. If it's not a character issue it's his fault.

Yeah, and I stand by that. If there's an issue in the locker room that prevents the Leafs from playing his style of hockey then he has failed in his job as a communicator.

See that doesn't hold water with me. I get that the coach will go before the 20 guys on the team but that doesn't mean that their character flaws are a result of poor communication. That's a large assumption on your part.

You've also gone on to say that this team is winning despite him.

When? Where? I said the team has had success despite playing lousy hockey. Not quite the same thing.

Well when you blame the questionable play on the coaching then go on and say that Carlyle is being saved because the goaltending despite that questionable play..well sir, you've kind of said that the team is winning despite the coaching  :-\

Did you ever stop to think that this team isn't comprised of as good of players as you think? I mean, we've had serious problems with just about every player so far this year short of Kessel, JvR and the two goalies.

Again, I think the playoffs last year raised expectations around here and in 'Leaf Nation' to an unreasonable point.

What the Leafs have on the ice is a mediocre team with good goaltending. They have the skill level to be a borderline playoff team.

Like I've said, I have issues with Carlyle's tactics but I also take issue with people seeing him as the reason this team isn't as good as they 'could be.' Personally I think they've played above themselves at points this year.

I never said this Leafs' team record should be better. I have said that I think they are extremely fortunate to be in the position that they're in, which is largely due to having very good goaltending and a couple great pieces up front.

The Leafs are dead last in the league in SA/g (36.3), 25th overall in GA (3.03), 28th overall in PK% (77.7) and 28th overall in PIM. But, hey, if that sounds like good coaching to you, then I don't know what I can say.
[/quote]

I've never said that I'm okay with any of those stats that you've posted. I just don't think that a different coaching method necessarily gets different results from an average team. I mean, sure, the shots against may go down but can we really expect better than a team that's 8 games over .500 right now? Perhaps I'm a pessimist but I think this team is the 16th-20th best team in the league right now with or without Carlyle's coaching.

Like I've said before. When you take away Kessel and JvR this team is a terrible team up front. They're already a terrible team on defense. To me, there's only so much any coach can do with that.

 

[#1PilarFan]

See that doesn't hold water with me. I get that the coach will go before the 20 guys on the team but that doesn't mean that their character flaws are a result of poor communication. That's a large assumption on your part.

As large as assuming there's character flaws on this team in the first place?

Well when you blame the questionable play on the coaching then go on and say that Carlyle is being saved because the goaltending despite that questionable play..well sir, you've kind of said that the team is winning despite the coaching  :-\

Like I said before, the team's playing lousy hockey but winning games, which at this point is pretty irrefutable. I don't think they're doing it despite him, just that everyone in the TML organization is very fortunate the Leafs sloppy play hasn't cost them more in the standings. 

I've never said that I'm okay with any of those stats that you've posted. I just don't think that a different coaching method necessarily gets different results from an average team. I mean, sure, the shots against may go down but can we really expect better than a team that's 8 games over .500 right now? Perhaps I'm a pessimist but I think this team is the 16th-20th best team in the league right now with or without Carlyle's coaching.

Like I've said before. When you take away Kessel and JvR this team is a terrible team up front. They're already a terrible team on defense. To me, there's only so much any coach can do with that.

I mean, obviously, when you take away the team's two best forwards (one of whom is top 10 in scoring), they're going to look appreciably worse on paper but that's not really what this is about.

This team allows more goals against/game and more SA/g than Wilson's rosters, which I think we can all agree were pretty much inferior in every way. However, Carlyle's goaltenders combine for a .917 SV% (good for top 5 in the league) while Wilson got .904 SV% out of his goalies, putting them in the bottom third. Can another coach do better? I really don't see why not. If these GA/g and SA/g numbers don't come down, the Leafs will not be able to continue to succeed, which is why I and a few others believe Carlyle needs to go. It's not that the Leafs should be higher in the standings, it's that if they don't change (and they haven't for the entire season) they will run out of luck eventually and when they do it'll be bad news bears.

EDIT: Just to put some context here.

Leafs 2011-2012 30.8 SA/g 24th in the League.
(Carlyle took over late in the season from Wilson, most of the teams' numbers are on Wilson)
Leafs 2012-2013 32.3 SA/g 27th in the League.
Leafs 2013-2014 36.3 SA/g Last in the League.

Not trying to say that SA/g is the be all end all, but this is an alarming trend that is getting worse, not better. 

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Me assuming that a team that comes out flat as heck night after night has some character issues is not that far of a stretch. Like I said, these grown men are paid quite handsomely to perform and on most nights they decide they'd rather be home knitting a  sweater...To me that's a huge character issue.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Also, I haven't taken issue with the idea of firing Carlyle. I take issue with the idea that every one of these team's problems is a result of Carlyle's poor coaching. It's not. There's several factors contributing to this team's poor play.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Me assuming that a team that comes out flat as heck night after night has some character issues is not that far of a stretch. Like I said, these grown men are paid quite handsomely to perform and on most nights they decide they'd rather be home knitting a  sweater...To me that's a huge character issue.

Agreed.  As Carlyle and the coaching staff said repeatedly during 24/7, they shouldn't be responsible for getting the players revved up for the game.  They need to find that from within themselves and from team leadership.  This team has shown it can play with the best (see Chicago and LA games- even though they lost to LA) when they are pumped up for the game.  The problem is, getting pumped up for 82 games, 60 mins a game.  Against Florida, it took them 30 mins to wake up.  Same thing against the Sens on Saturday night. 

The player that best exemplifies this is Kadri.  His work ethic and energy has been WAY better since finding out he would be traded if he didn't wake up and play better.  Since then he's on a tear offensively and is playing much better defensively.  It's been night and day, the difference in his play from early December to late January.  The mind boggling thing about it was he basically had the 1st line center position handed to him by injuries in early December- the position he covets- and he failed to put in the effort required game to game to compete against the oppositions best defenders. 

The team needs more compete level game to game, period to period, shift to shift. 

 

[bustaheims]

Agreed.  As Carlyle and the coaching staff said repeatedly during 24/7, they shouldn't be responsible for getting the players revved up for the game.  They need to find that from within themselves and from team leadership. 

The problem with this statement is that Carlyle and the coaches are part of the team's leadership. Part of the job of the coach and his staff is to motivate the team, whether Carlyle wants to believe that or not. It's not solely on them, but it is absolutely partly on them.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

EDIT: Just to put some context here.

Leafs 2011-2012 30.8 SA/g 24th in the League.
(Carlyle took over late in the season from Wilson, most of the teams' numbers are on Wilson)
Leafs 2012-2013 32.3 SA/g 27th in the League.
Leafs 2013-2014 36.3 SA/g Last in the League.

Not trying to say that SA/g is the be all end all, but this is an alarming trend that is getting worse, not better.

And to add to that, this is what I posted oh, 60 something pages ago:

It's not new for Carlyle either.  In 2010-11 in Anaheim, the Ducks were 4th worst with 32.3 SA/G, in 2009-10 they were 2nd worst with 33.4 SA/G (coincides with Pronger leaving).

 

[Leaflifer]

Agreed.  As Carlyle and the coaching staff said repeatedly during 24/7, they shouldn't be responsible for getting the players revved up for the game.  They need to find that from within themselves and from team leadership. 

The problem with this statement is that Carlyle and the coaches are part of the team's leadership. Part of the job of the coach and his staff is to motivate the team, whether Carlyle wants to believe that or not. It's not solely on them, but it is absolutely partly on them.

I agree with Carlyle on that point. I think the players do need to find the desire to win outside of his yelling at them saying they suck. He shouldn't
feel the need to do that.

After TBay won the cup, Tortorella was asked. "What did you say to those guys to get them going?"

He said, "Nothing...if they haven't figured it out by now there's nothing I CAN say."

There is a separation between being a player and being a coach. Seeing the leadership coming from someone in your own shoes is different. Especially from younger, stinking rich players.

I'm not letting RC of the hook, however. It bothered me (for obvious reasons) when RC said "If your not going to play for name on the front, then at least do it for the name on the back!" No RC. Play for the name on the front or get out. Seriously.

This team needs cohesion. 24/7 demonstrated a very cliquey group of guys. RC is definitely an outsider. The players lounge seating isn't central, everyone sits in little groups around the outside, like a grade 7 dance.

Oh yea...Phaneuf's pep talk was embarrassing.

 

[Zee]

Agreed.  As Carlyle and the coaching staff said repeatedly during 24/7, they shouldn't be responsible for getting the players revved up for the game.  They need to find that from within themselves and from team leadership. 

The problem with this statement is that Carlyle and the coaches are part of the team's leadership. Part of the job of the coach and his staff is to motivate the team, whether Carlyle wants to believe that or not. It's not solely on them, but it is absolutely partly on them.

I agree with Carlyle on that point. I think the players do need to find the desire to win outside of his yelling at them saying they suck. He shouldn't
feel the need to do that.

After TBay won the cup, Tortorella was asked. "What did you say to those guys to get them going?"

He said, "Nothing...if they haven't figured it out by now there's nothing I CAN say."

There is a separation between being a player and being a coach. Seeing the leadership coming from someone in your own shoes is different. Especially from younger, stinking rich players.

I'm not letting RC of the hook, however. It bothered me (for obvious reasons) when RC said "If your not going to play for name on the front, then at least do it for the name on the back!" No RC. Play for the name on the front or get out. Seriously.

This team needs cohesion. 24/7 demonstrated a very cliquey group of guys. RC is definitely an outsider. The players lounge seating isn't central, everyone sits in little groups around the outside, like a grade 7 dance.

Oh yea...Phaneuf's pep talk was embarrassing.

The ping-pong bonding bro.  Nuff said.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Agreed.  As Carlyle and the coaching staff said repeatedly during 24/7, they shouldn't be responsible for getting the players revved up for the game.  They need to find that from within themselves and from team leadership. 

The problem with this statement is that Carlyle and the coaches are part of the team's leadership. Part of the job of the coach and his staff is to motivate the team, whether Carlyle wants to believe that or not. It's not solely on them, but it is absolutely partly on them.

I agree with Carlyle on that point. I think the players do need to find the desire to win outside of his yelling at them saying they suck. He shouldn't
feel the need to do that.

After TBay won the cup, Tortorella was asked. "What did you say to those guys to get them going?"

He said, "Nothing...if they haven't figured it out by now there's nothing I CAN say."

There is a separation between being a player and being a coach. Seeing the leadership coming from someone in your own shoes is different. Especially from younger, stinking rich players.

I'm not letting RC of the hook, however. It bothered me (for obvious reasons) when RC said "If your not going to play for name on the front, then at least do it for the name on the back!" No RC. Play for the name on the front or get out. Seriously.

This team needs cohesion. 24/7 demonstrated a very cliquey group of guys. RC is definitely an outsider. The players lounge seating isn't central, everyone sits in little groups around the outside, like a grade 7 dance.

Oh yea...Phaneuf's pep talk was embarrassing.

What's the context of that quote?  Is he talking about getting them going for game 7 of the Finals?  Because if so, then that's a wildly different scenario and not really comparable.

The Leafs are cliquey because of the way their lounge seating is?  I'm fairly certain I've read that it's a great room and everyone gets along with everyone.  I'd hazard a guess that it's probably fairly similar to the majority of teams in the league.

EDIT: I mean you can google and find all kinds of references to motivation by coaches in one form or another:

Though Babcock underplays the role of pressure in such a hockey-crazed city, it inevitably remains a strong presence in the locker room. Playing through a gruelling 82-game season, with extra exhibition and playoff games, Babcock consistently needs to find ways to motivate his team in order to bring them together on a nightly basis.

"Motivation, in my mind, is ?what's in it for me?' Now, how do you get 23 people to find what's in it for them and be on a team? You give up some individual rights for team rights, but the reality is, they all still want to be important. That's what I do, I manage people."

It's not a one-size fits all thing, but all coaches will have to do it in some form.

 

[Stickytape]

Agreed.  As Carlyle and the coaching staff said repeatedly during 24/7, they shouldn't be responsible for getting the players revved up for the game.  They need to find that from within themselves and from team leadership. 

The problem with this statement is that Carlyle and the coaches are part of the team's leadership. Part of the job of the coach and his staff is to motivate the team, whether Carlyle wants to believe that or not. It's not solely on them, but it is absolutely partly on them.

I agree with Carlyle on that point. I think the players do need to find the desire to win outside of his yelling at them saying they suck. He shouldn't
feel the need to do that.

After TBay won the cup, Tortorella was asked. "What did you say to those guys to get them going?"

He said, "Nothing...if they haven't figured it out by now there's nothing I CAN say."

: This is getting ridiculous to the point where I'm having trouble believing people are sincere when they suggest that coaches aren't at least partly responsible for keeping a team motivated.

So, for argument's sake, let's say that the Leafs sally forth against the Canucks on Saturday, and get outshot something like 15-2 in the 1st period.  During the 1st intermission, Carlyle gathers the players in the dressing room... and just calmly goes over a few set plays for 20 minutes.

That's cool with you?

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I literally do not understand what this whole "I say nothing to my players" stuff is.  That is not how hockey works, and I surprised we're even entertaining the idea that it is.  ???

The way I see it, the coach is a part of the team, and in no way does any member of the team get to sit back and wash their hands of it when things aren't clicking.  Everyone has a hand in keeping the team motivated and focused.  When the team is losing, you do whatever the hell is necessary to start winning again.  You just do.

I'm fine with people saying that Carlyle is sincerely doing his best, or that he's still trying to find a way to get through to these players and maybe we should give him more time.  That's more of a discussion about competence, and I'm cool with that.  But outright denying his responsibility to the team is a completely alien idea to me.  I don't get where that's coming from.

 

[bustaheims]

I agree with Carlyle on that point. I think the players do need to find the desire to win outside of his yelling at them saying they suck. He shouldn't
feel the need to do that.

You're right. He shouldn't feel the need to do that. Not because he shouldn't be finding ways to motivate the team, but, because that's a piss-poor motivational tactic.

After TBay won the cup, Tortorella was asked. "What did you say to those guys to get them going?"

He said, "Nothing...if they haven't figured it out by now there's nothing I CAN say."

There is a separation between being a player and being a coach. Seeing the leadership coming from someone in your own shoes is different. Especially from younger, stinking rich players.

Leadership is a hierarchy. Yes, the players should be the more prominent leaders, but the coaching staff and even the GM are still very much part of the leadership of the team.

I'm not letting RC of the hook, however. It bothered me (for obvious reasons) when RC said "If your not going to play for name on the front, then at least do it for the name on the back!" No RC. Play for the name on the front or get out. Seriously.

This team needs cohesion. 24/7 demonstrated a very cliquey group of guys. RC is definitely an outsider. The players lounge seating isn't central, everyone sits in little groups around the outside, like a grade 7 dance.

Oh yea...Phaneuf's pep talk was embarrassing.

I didn't get that impression from 24/7 at all. What I saw was a team where everyone seems to get along really well. No matter who is on the team, there's going to be some groups that are closer than others, but, I really did not get the impression that things were at the point where I'd call it cliquey or anything along those lines. What I did get from 24/7 is that Carlyle isn't a good leader and he has poor motivational tactics. That's why he's tried to absolve himself of those duties. As for Phaneuf's pep talk . . . while it was pretty sad, I imagine most captains give equally poor pep talks before a significant chunk of regular season games. There's only so many times you can use the big speech to get your team going before it starts to become ineffective. And, it wasn't like the pep talks we saw in the Detroit room were any better.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What pep talk are we talking about?

 

[bustaheims]

What pep talk are we talking about?

I imagine it was the one pre-game thing when, after Carlyle left the room shortly before the game started, Phaneuf mumbled out a few cliches and such. At least, that's the one I'm referring to. It wasn't particularly inspiring, but, I wouldn't say it was all that different from what we saw from the Red Wings room, either.

 

[Kin]

But outright denying his responsibility to the team is a completely alien idea to me.  I don't get where that's coming from.

I don't think it's a question of denying responsibility so much as it is a case of denying efficacy. I think that there are certain things that a coach can do to get through to players individually or collectively on an ongoing basis to shape how they approach games or practices or their profession but the idea that a really good speech during the intermissions will get a bunch of guys dragging their butts to play better...I doubt that. I don't think that's something a coach really can do outside of extraordinary circumstances.

That sort of motivation, the "we sucked last period so we'll do better next"  drive, I really think that comes from within. Either someone has it or they don't and I don't think Carlyle watching episodes of Friday Night Lights for pointers is going to help. Now, a coach or a captain or a teammate, they can play a role in motivating a player to have that or improve themselves in that regard but the sort of win one for the Gipper stuff you're referring to? I think it's entirely overblown.