So the debate begins: Matthews vs. Laine

[Kin]

That's literally what Zee posted and what I'm talking about.  Just because a few moron scouts wanna talk nonsense doesn't mean there's a "debate".

"Hinting" something "might" happen 6 months from now is not the same thing as a scout saying "right now, Eichel is ahead of McDavid".

It's also not a quote. It's a misrepresentation of the actual quoted words from the scouts.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

From Bob Mckenzie's final 2016 draft report:

This time, in a survey of the same 10 scouts ? conducted in the run-up to Saturday's NHL draft lottery ? two of the 10 said Laine is now No. 1 on their team's lists. Others suggested they had to think long and hard about their decision to keep Matthews at No. 1.

From Bob Mckenzie's final 2015 draft report:

TSN surveyed 10 NHL scouts and all 10, predictably, came back with the Erie Otter and Boston University centres one-two.

 

[ZBBM]

Anyone see that Laine interview from a couple of days ago?  Guy was super chilled out it was funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o5BUvvAspw

To me he just sounds like a non-native English speaker looking for the right words, just as you might expect.

 

[dappleganger]

Anyone see that Laine interview from a couple of days ago?  Guy was super chilled out it was funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o5BUvvAspw

To me he just sounds like a non-native English speaker looking for the right words, just as you might expect.

To me he sounds HAF.

 

[pmrules]

Pre draft lottery, I was looking forward to Laine at number 2 when reading up on him.  He really impressed me at the WJC's.  He reminds me of a selanne/ovechkin lite.  Also the drafting of Laine, increased the chances of Stamkos, and adding 2 stars was a great improvement for our future top 6.  With Matthews, of course the chances of Stamkos coming here have dropped ( not zero....just lower than if we had drafted 2-4).

But if Matthews is a franchise centre (and I honestly don't know, since I haven't seen him too much...only based on what I've read), then I can't possibly turn down the player at the more important position who may turn out to be a franchise centre. 

Anyone know how is matthews defensive play?  The comparable was Kopitar on the lottery show.  If so, I'll take that. 

 

[AvroArrow]

"Hinting" something "might" happen 6 months from now is not the same thing as a scout saying "right now, Eichel is ahead of McDavid".

It's also not a quote. It's a misrepresentation of the actual quoted words from the scouts.

Since you seem to know everything, why don't you give me all the quotes from the scouts?

Oh, you can't?  Then you can't claim it's a misrepresentation of their quotes.

And the one quote that is there isn't necessarily even a quote of one of the three.  And if it is, there's still 2 more scouts.

But arguing with you is about as pointless as arguing with a sock, so I'm done here.

 

[Kin]

Since you seem to know everything, why don't you give me all the quotes from the scouts?

Oh, you can't?  Then you can't claim it's a misrepresentation of their quotes.

Jesus, this really isn't hard. I said "it's a misrepresentation of the quoted words". That means the words in the article that are actually attributed to scouts.

And since counting doesn't seem to be your strong suit either, there is more than one quote from a scout in the piece, there's two. And, again, because this shouldn't be that hard what I said is that it was misrepresenting the words he actually quoted.

It's a simple fact that you're dancing around. Nobody said "Eichel is ahead of McDavid". They sure as hell didn't say it after the two of them had actually played their seasons, as CtB's post makes clear.

That is emphatically not true with Laine/Matthews right now. You not only have scouts saying Laine is ahead of Matthews, some who favour Matthews are saying it's a very close call.

And, again, because you ignored this because it didn't suit your purposes. Sometimes the people who advocate the guy ranked #2 are right. Even if what you said about McDavid/Eichel was true, we don't know for certain how their careers are turning out. Eichel was a hell of a prospect and had a terrific rookie year. Do I think McDavid will be better? Sure. Is there anything gained by claiming he will be with 100% certainty before it happens? Maybe if you're an obnoxious talk-radio show host. But this is a place for, you know, discussion.

I know this is anathema to you in general but the only thing I'm advocating is keeping an open mind and listening to the debate and, in the coming months, coming to an informed decision. I wish I could say that I'm surprised that radical concept offends you so much but, well, that would be a lie. 

 

[AvroArrow]

There are so many things wrong with that post.  Wow, talk about stupidity.  Thankfully, I don't have time for your stupidity.

 

[herman]

Some grist for the mill of actual discussion:
https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016/05/01/auston-matthews/

8 ? In various interviews, Crawford has described Matthews as having the presence of Joe Sakic, the shot release of Jamie Benn, the two-way game of Anze Kopitar, and the effortless skating stride of Jean Beliveau. No pressure, though. ?He?s not quite as physical as Benn or as responsible as Kopitar, but he?s got the power and all the intangibles that you want ? character and humility and is just a hard-working kid.?

9 ? Said to be perhaps a better shooter than a playmaker, if you had to pick, Matthews finished first in the Swiss NLA in goals per game (0.67) with 24 in 36 games. He finished fourth in overall goal scoring, but missed five games waiting for his residency permit to be authorized on his 18th birthday, and missed some games with a back injury as well. ?He?s extremely good at shooting the puck with his different release points and he makes those real good small-area plays, which is the NHL now,? said Crawford of his shot.

[...]

22 ? It?s been something of a debate as to whether Matthews would?ve gone ahead or behind Eichel last draft if he was born two days earlier. Here?s how Matthews? draft-year minus-one production stacks up against Eichel?s:

[tweet]726814672578441216[/tweet]

23 ? Here are Matthews? own words on the comparison vs. Eichel: ?We?re both pretty big guys and we like to have the puck on our stick; we?re both power forwards. I think the style of our game might be a little bit different. Jack is obviously an unbelievable skater. I?ve never seen somebody skate like him. He has a great shot and is really powerful. I kind of am a little bit quicker in the corners and stuff with my hands. I try to use my hands and vision a lot.?

And head coach of the U18 US National Team, Danton Cole:  ?From a physical standpoint they?re both very similar, but it?s a different-type game. People have seen Jack play now and aren?t surprised anymore with the power he plays with. With Auston, I don?t want to say he?s more finesse, but maybe more of a cutter, whereas Jack is more power. But they?re big centers who play at a real hard pace and what?s very similar is that they each have a competitive burn to succeed at all costs.?

24 ? Matthews is a student of Maple Leafs skills development consultant, Daryl Belfry. Matthews was rumoured to be working with Belfry recently in Florida for two weeks after his Swiss season ended, in order to get him prepared for the upcoming World Championships.

25 ? Matthews doesn?t like taking time off after the season ends. He told the Arizona Central, ?I don?t think I ever really get burned out on hockey. I hate taking those couple weeks off after the season where you let your body rest and recuperate. Obviously, it?s necessary ? as much as I?d rather not do it.? ?He?s so dedicated to nutrition, to his off-ice work, studying the game,? Matthews? mom, Ema, told NHL.com. ?His desire to be better, to get better, is impressive. He?s always focused on the weaker parts of his game. He?s our son and, as his mom, he amazes me every day.?

Also:
[tweet]726817053013745664[/tweet]


---

Even in light of the above:
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/jrhockey-buzzing-the-net/nhl-scout--%E2%80%9C-patrik--laine-has-the-biggest-upside-in-the-draft%E2%80%9D-015210279.html

?I was pretty sure about (Matthews) him going first overall for nearly all the season, but now I'm not so sure and think the World Championship in Russia will finally decide this race,? says Thomas Roost, a Switzerland-based scout for NHL Central Scouting Service. ?This has nothing to do with Matthews' performances, as he performed very well all season long including the playoffs, but Laine did just explode during the WJC U20 in Finland and now in the Finnish playoffs where he grabbed the MVP award and scored a lot of goals in clutch situations.?

It appears the 6-foot-2, 194-pound Matthews is the more polished prospect of the two. Down the road, however, Laine seems to have the advantage in long-term upside if he can enhance his skating ability.

?Personally, I think Laine has the biggest upside in the draft because he is already so effective, although he still has some rough edges in his play and I think he still can improve his skating a bit more than Matthews,? says Roost. ?If all this happens, I guess Laine has the slightly higher ceiling.?

On top of a higher long-term ceiling, the 6-foot-4, 209-pound Laine has the edge in clutch play. In addition to coming up big for Finland at the 2016 world junior championship, he was named the Finnish League playoff MVP this week following scoring 10 goals and 15 points in 18 games.

?Laine is a high-end shooter and has a huge wingspan going with a soft pair of hands plus Laine showed already that he can be at his best in clutch situations,? says Roost. ?Matthews also played pretty well in important games and situations, but he didn't level up his plays in these situations as Laine did more than once.?

Nevertheless, since No. 1 centres tend to be harder to find than high-end wingers, Matthews? position gives him an edge on Laine. It could ultimately push the lottery winner to take the former ZSC Lion, especially if the club lacks size down the middle.

?I still think that this is a real factor because the level of difference is so small when all is said and done, so going for a centermen might still be the difference,? says the scout. ?Having a high-end centre is a bit more important than to have a high-end winger in the eyes of most hockey experts?

[...]

?I agree in terms of maybe that Laine is a bit more Ovechkin in terms of shooting and acting extrovert as a bit of a showman sometimes on the ice and in interviews,? says Roost. ?Laine is very confident but still in a positive way; he is not (yet) overconfident. I guess he is very smart and clever. Matthews is more low key in interviews and in his overall on and off-ice behaviour. Style wise, on the ice I think Matthews is more like Kopitar or Toews than Malkin, but I'm 100 per cent sure that both players will leave their stamps with their own trademarks and none of them will be called an Ovechkin, Kopitar, Toews or Malkin clone in the future.?

---

Personally, I am ecstatic we are picking either player. Matthews occupies more coveted space. His even keeled temperament and desire to develop and grow his game sounds like a very good fit for the team Leafs Management has been pushing towards.

They're both game breaking talents with the size, speed, and skill required to excel in today's NHL. If they both played the same position, this would be more of a coin-toss, but Matthews already playing an excellent game at centre against men, and comparing favourably against established scoring wingers and a similar centre at the same age gives him the edge for my vote.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Look at those draft -1 numbers, why is it even a debate?

Surely Matthews would have gone ahead of Eichel?

Is Eichel's skating advantage that pronounced?

I mean 17 goals in 7 more games is pretty spectacular.

 

[sneakyray]

One of the interviews with marc crawford got me excited.  He said that in 2012 during the lockout come of the nhl superstars came over to the swiss league to play.  Guys like rick nash, joe thornton, patrick kane to name a few but none of them dominated the league like 18 year old auston matthews did this year.  according to his coach he had a flat out dominant year playing against men.  It kind of makes me wonder how he would have done playing in the chl. 

I really hope toronto picks him  because he will have an immediate impact according to crawford.

 

[herman]

Look at those draft -1 numbers, why is it even a debate?

Surely Matthews would have gone ahead of Eichel?

Is Eichel's skating advantage that pronounced?

I mean 17 goals in 7 more games is pretty spectacular.

If Matthews was drafted against Eichel, most scouts were saying Eichel > Matthews last year, even though the production numbers clearly said Matthews > Eichel (I'm in this camp).

Eichel's power and footspeed is enticing, but Matthews has the ability to play in close, and the hockey sense to either be unpredictable or already 2 steps ahead of the play. The way the Leafs are being coached, I see a better fit for us with the stronger down-low presence. We have a plethora of carriers now between Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Nylander, while our board play is mildly undersized behind JvR (who I still think is not long for this roster).

Straightaway separation speed can be improved after the fact as evidenced by Tavares' development on these past couple of years.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

If Matthews was drafted against Eichel, most scouts were saying Eichel > Matthews last year, even though the production numbers clearly said Matthews > Eichel (I'm in this camp).

That's a tough thing to judge though since at that time Eichel had an extra year of development than Matthews. Most of the numbers that we can compare show Matthews in a better light. Like you said there's the USDP where Matthews outproduced him. In their draft year they played in different leagues but Matthews' performance at the World Juniors was far better than Eichel's (11 points in 7 games vs. just 4 points in 5 games for Eichel).

The World Championships will also give us a good look at the two. That was a big statement tournament for Eichel, he scored 7 points in 10 games. Can Matthews do the same?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Another thing about the whole Matthews vs. Eichel convo is that it'll add another little element to the Toronto-Buffalo rivalry. Two rebuilding teams coming up at about the same time. Matthews-Nylander-Kadri vs. Eichel-Reinhart-ROR will be fun to watch. And of course the whole Babcock things adds another little wrinkle to that.

 

[herman]

If Matthews was drafted against Eichel, most scouts were saying Eichel > Matthews last year, even though the production numbers clearly said Matthews > Eichel (I'm in this camp).

That's a tough thing to judge though since at that time Eichel had an extra year of development than Matthews. Most of the numbers that we can compare show Matthews in a better light. Like you said there's the USDP where Matthews outproduced him. In their draft year they played in different leagues but Matthews' performance at the World Juniors was far better than Eichel's (11 points in 7 games vs. just 4 points in 5 games for Eichel).

The World Championships will also give us a good look at the two. That was a big statement tournament for Eichel, he scored 7 points in 10 games. Can Matthews do the same?

Actually, I forgot about this aspect. I assumed that since they were the same age it'd be an apples to apples comparison, but you're right that Matthews has nearly a year of development over Eichel in the Draft-1. I was still interested to see a centerman outpace the likes of Kane and Kessel though, seeing as how those two tend to play in only one side of the rink. It's not a complete picture, but is a tantalizing notion.

Either way, I'm 100% more interested now in the World Championships than I was Saturday morning.

 

[herman]

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/suorat/yle-tv2

World Championship tune up match between USA (Matthews) and Finland (Komarov, Laine).

 

[jdh1]

I thought Matthews was the consensus no.1 choice from all the reports from the experts the last couple of years.Is there really a debate now?

 

[herman]

I thought Matthews was the consensus no.1 choice from all the reports from the experts the last couple of years.Is there really a debate now?

Patrik Laine's play this past year has vaulted him from no. 6 last year to vying for no. 1 now coming up on the draft.

According to Bob McKenzie's scout contacts, most of the European scouts slot Laine over Matthews, while the NA-based scouts still vote Matthews.

Laine plays a 'louder' game than Matthews, who is steady and consistently making smart, skilled, and responsible plays. Laine comes through in clutch situations, but is the more raw prospect.

 

[Redleaf]

Anyone see that Laine interview from a couple of days ago?  Guy was super chilled out it was funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o5BUvvAspw

I missed that. Thanks for sharing. Is he lying in a bed for this interview? Man alive, he's not what I expected.

 

[Highlander]

He reminds me of Brienne of Tarth (Game of Thrones)