Steve Stamkos?

[Kin]

cool thanks for clarifying...I hate detroit so I hope its not them.  For me I think I'll declare a dark horse since i have already said I think the leafs...so my dark horse is anaheim.

Cap wise that seems very tricky to pull off but with hiring Carlyle and some people saying that some guys might ask out of there you have to wonder if they maybe look to trade Getzlaf or Perry and then sign Stamkos?

I'd mentioned New Jersey before as a possible dark horse but that's just because I think they might be best situated to offer him the max.

 

[sneakyray]

You're trying to back your opinion with facts when all he really said was it 'feels' like the Babcock situation. See this is where using facts to back your opinion loses some of its luster. I mean, I get what you are doing, and you are good at it. I just don't feel the need to always get 'factual' when opinions are being expressed about things. Thats where some of the breakdowns happen in our debates on this forum. Does that make any sense?

Nope. When an opinion belies the facts, it deserves to be challenged with those facts. If we're not using facts to support our opinions or to challenge other opinions, and if we're not open to discussions based around those facts and opinions, then what is the point of having a message board in the first place? Just for people to sound off on what they think? That's what Twitter is for.

And some of the nastiness that goes along with it is all part and parcel to the debate too. Gotcha.

I knew when i posted that they were largely different situations.  I understand the arguments for and against signing stamkos.  I am largely torn on whether or not its the right thing to do.  I don't mind if people want to throw out any or all of those facts and I know that if I take everything posted in reply to my posts can't be taken personally...and I have been fine.

no worries everyone...I was giving my completely unfounded opinion

busta was just pointing out the differences that I already knew  but I had foregon in my opinion based on my feelings.

 

[bustaheims]

There's a difference between all the facts and selective facts.

Those that see Stamkos continuing to decline still haven't justified that when I asked how they can come to that conclusion based on shrinking goalie equipment and him with one of the hardest, most accurate shots in the world. 

i have posed the question multiple times and all I got was silence.

That's because you're asking a fundamentally unanswerable question. For one, we don't know what changes to goaltending equipment are going to happen - they haven't been approved by the PA yet. It's likely they'll happen, but it's not a guarantee, nor do we know the exact changes that are going to be made. At this point, all we have is a proposal.

Secondly, we don't know how Stamkos' shot accuracy or velocity may have been impacted by his recent injury, which required a rib to be removed from under his arm. Is there going to be a physical impact? A mental one? A combination of the two? Considering he's played all of one game - in which he was largely ineffective - since undergoing the procedure, there's no clear picture there.

That being said, the expected decline can be somewhat justified based on history of similar players - the best goal scorers in the history of the game typically saw their totals start to dip as they entered their late 20s - there are exceptions to this, obviously, but, it is still the trend. Players slow down with age - not necessarily in a noticeable way, but even losing a fraction of a second in skating speed or shot release can have a significant impact on production.

 

[sneakyray]

cool thanks for clarifying...I hate detroit so I hope its not them.  For me I think I'll declare a dark horse since i have already said I think the leafs...so my dark horse is anaheim.

Cap wise that seems very tricky to pull off but with hiring Carlyle and some people saying that some guys might ask out of there you have to wonder if they maybe look to trade Getzlaf or Perry and then sign Stamkos?

I'd mentioned New Jersey before as a possible dark horse but that's just because I think they might be best situated to offer him the max.

but with 18 million in cap space...if they just resign lingholm, trade vatanen and andersen, shouldn't they have the space to sign stamkos?

edit: admittedly I have very little knowledge of anaheims cap other than a cursory glance at nhlnumbers

 

[herman]

cool thanks for clarifying...I hate detroit so I hope its not them.  For me I think I'll declare a dark horse since i have already said I think the leafs...so my dark horse is anaheim.

Cap wise that seems very tricky to pull off but with hiring Carlyle and some people saying that some guys might ask out of there you have to wonder if they maybe look to trade Getzlaf or Perry and then sign Stamkos?

I'd mentioned New Jersey before as a possible dark horse but that's just because I think they might be best situated to offer him the max.

but with 18 million in cap space...if they just resign lingholm, trade vatanen and andersen, shouldn't they have the space to sign stamkos?

edit: admittedly I have very little knowledge of anaheims cap other than a cursory glance at nhlnumbers

I believe Anaheim operates under an internal budget cap as well.

 

[bustaheims]

And some of the nastiness that goes along with it is all part and parcel to the debate too. Gotcha.

To be fair, I think most of the nastiness starts when people are dismissive of facts or are offended by the fact their opinions are being challenged. From there, posts tend to take a snarky or arrogant tone, and, well, things obviously spiral.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

St. Louis would be such a great fit, but they'd have to move either Stastny or Berglund+Shattenkirk to make it work.

Steen-Stamkos-x
Schwartz-Lehtera-Tarasenko
Fabbri-Berglund/Stastny-x

Would be pretty solid.

 

[herman]

There's a difference between all the facts and selective facts.

Those that see Stamkos continuing to decline still haven't justified that when I asked how they can come to that conclusion based on shrinking goalie equipment and him with one of the hardest, most accurate shots in the world. 

i have posed the question multiple times and all I got was silence.

That's because you're asking a fundamentally unanswerable question. For one, we don't know what changes to goaltending equipment are going to happen - they haven't been approved by the PA yet. It's likely they'll happen, but it's not a guarantee, nor do we know the exact changes that are going to be made. At this point, all we have is a proposal.

Secondly, we don't know how Stamkos' shot accuracy or velocity may have been impacted by his recent injury, which required a rib to be removed from under his arm. Is there going to be a physical impact? A mental one? A combination of the two? Considering he's played all of one game - in which he was largely ineffective - since undergoing the procedure, there's no clear picture there.

That being said, the expected decline can be somewhat justified based on history of similar players - the best goal scorers in the history of the game typically saw their totals start to dip as they entered their late 20s - there are exceptions to this, obviously, but, it is still the trend. Players slow down with age - not necessarily in a noticeable way, but even losing a fraction of a second in skating speed or shot release can have a significant impact on production.

If there is a change, it would also be a systematic change, not one that benefits Stamkos specifically; I could also argue for re-upping Tyler Bozak because he has a high shooting percentage and it will likely go up with the equipment size coming down.

 

[Kin]

but with 18 million in cap space...if they just resign lingholm, trade vatanen and andersen, shouldn't they have the space to sign stamkos?

Maybe. But that would leave them with only nine forwards, six defensemen and one goalie under contract. So if you figure that signing Stamkos/Lindholm equals at least 16 million that would leave them only a few million to sign 5-7 players, including Rickard Rackell who is also a RFA and coming off a pretty good year.

 

[sneakyray]

There's a difference between all the facts and selective facts.

Those that see Stamkos continuing to decline still haven't justified that when I asked how they can come to that conclusion based on shrinking goalie equipment and him with one of the hardest, most accurate shots in the world. 

i have posed the question multiple times and all I got was silence.

That's because you're asking a fundamentally unanswerable question. For one, we don't know what changes to goaltending equipment are going to happen - they haven't been approved by the PA yet. It's likely they'll happen, but it's not a guarantee, nor do we know the exact changes that are going to be made. At this point, all we have is a proposal.

Secondly, we don't know how Stamkos' shot accuracy or velocity may have been impacted by his recent injury, which required a rib to be removed from under his arm. Is there going to be a physical impact? A mental one? A combination of the two? Considering he's played all of one game - in which he was largely ineffective - since undergoing the procedure, there's no clear picture there.

That being said, the expected decline can be somewhat justified based on history of similar players - the best goal scorers in the history of the game typically saw their totals start to dip as they entered their late 20s - there are exceptions to this, obviously, but, it is still the trend. Players slow down with age - not necessarily in a noticeable way, but even losing a fraction of a second in skating speed or shot release can have a significant impact on production.

If there is a change, it would also be a systematic change, not one that benefits Stamkos specifically; I could also argue for re-upping Tyler Bozak because he has a high shooting percentage and it will likely go up with the equipment size coming down.

but....but...ummmm...you know bozaks already under contract right?

 

[sneakyray]

but with 18 million in cap space...if they just resign lingholm, trade vatanen and andersen, shouldn't they have the space to sign stamkos?

Maybe. But that would leave them with only nine forwards, six defensemen and one goalie under contract. So if you figure that signing Stamkos/Lindholm equals at least 16 million that would leave them only a few million to sign 5 players, including Rickard Rickell who is also a RFA and coming off a pretty good year.

yeah, so never mind, I'll find a better dark horse.

maybe if detroit signs him toronto can get mrazek off of them.

 

[Kin]

I believe Anaheim operates under an internal budget cap as well.

There's that too. I think I said it when we were talking Vatanen but I've heard talk they want to cut costs next year.

 

[bustaheims]

St. Louis would be such a great fit, but they'd have to move either Stastny or Berglund+Shattenkirk to make it work.

Shattenkirk has been rumoured to be on the move for a while now - and St Louis is one of the few teams that can afford to move a top flight defenceman. They can also afford to move Berglund, though he might be a tougher sell - and he's also been in the rumour mill for years now.

 

[Redleaf]

You're trying to back your opinion with facts when all he really said was it 'feels' like the Babcock situation. See this is where using facts to back your opinion loses some of its luster. I mean, I get what you are doing, and you are good at it. I just don't feel the need to always get 'factual' when opinions are being expressed about things. Thats where some of the breakdowns happen in our debates on this forum. Does that make any sense?

Nope. When an opinion belies the facts, it deserves to be challenged with those facts. If we're not using facts to support our opinions or to challenge other opinions, and if we're not open to discussions based around those facts and opinions, then what is the point of having a message board in the first place? Just for people to sound off on what they think? That's what Twitter is for.

And some of the nastiness that goes along with it is all part and parcel to the debate too. Gotcha.

I knew when i posted that they were largely different situations.  I understand the arguments for and against signing stamkos.  I am largely torn on whether or not its the right thing to do.  I don't mind if people want to throw out any or all of those facts and I know that if I take everything posted in reply to my posts can't be taken personally...and I have been fine.

no worries everyone...I was giving my completely unfounded opinion

busta was just pointing out the differences that I already knew  but I had foregon in my opinion based on my feelings.

'Thats ok this time. But no more 'gut feeling' comments please. At least without googling the reason for that feeling and sharing it with us first.  : Otherwise... just stick to Twitter.'

Being challenged on gut feelings is like being asked why you love the sport of hockey. Your homework tonight is a 1000 word dissertation on passion. Please provide facts!

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Shattenkirk has been rumoured to be on the move for a while now - and St Louis is one of the few teams that can afford to move a top flight defenceman. They can also afford to move Berglund, though he might be a tougher sell - and he's also been in the rumour mill for years now.

Oh yeah they wouldn't be impossible moves or anything, I just wonder if they go that route.

 

[TBLeafer]

There's a difference between all the facts and selective facts.

Those that see Stamkos continuing to decline still haven't justified that when I asked how they can come to that conclusion based on shrinking goalie equipment and him with one of the hardest, most accurate shots in the world. 

i have posed the question multiple times and all I got was silence.

That's because you're asking a fundamentally unanswerable question. For one, we don't know what changes to goaltending equipment are going to happen - they haven't been approved by the PA yet. It's likely they'll happen, but it's not a guarantee, nor do we know the exact changes that are going to be made. At this point, all we have is a proposal.

Secondly, we don't know how Stamkos' shot accuracy or velocity may have been impacted by his recent injury, which required a rib to be removed from under his arm. Is there going to be a physical impact? A mental one? A combination of the two? Considering he's played all of one game - in which he was largely ineffective - since undergoing the procedure, there's no clear picture there.

That being said, the expected decline can be somewhat justified based on history of similar players - the best goal scorers in the history of the game typically saw their totals start to dip as they entered their late 20s - there are exceptions to this, obviously, but, it is still the trend. Players slow down with age - not necessarily in a noticeable way, but even losing a fraction of a second in skating speed or shot release can have a significant impact on production.

Oh its coming...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/nhl-shrinking-goaltending-equipment-starting-next-season/article29247009/

Possibly as early as the World Cup.

More holes are guaranteed to be created.

That rib that caused the clot in the first place was an anomaly in itself and the size of an index finger.  Its what put pressure on the area where the clot was created that doesn't affect most humans that don't have that extra rib.  Removing it is akin to having your wisdom teeth out.

Stamkos' commitment to fitness should see him continue to compete at an elite level for years to come.

 

[Kin]

That's because you're asking a fundamentally unanswerable question. For one, we don't know what changes to goaltending equipment are going to happen - they haven't been approved by the PA yet. It's likely they'll happen, but it's not a guarantee, nor do we know the exact changes that are going to be made. At this point, all we have is a proposal.

Secondly, we don't know how Stamkos' shot accuracy or velocity may have been impacted by his recent injury, which required a rib to be removed from under his arm. Is there going to be a physical impact? A mental one? A combination of the two? Considering he's played all of one game - in which he was largely ineffective - since undergoing the procedure, there's no clear picture there.

That being said, the expected decline can be somewhat justified based on history of similar players - the best goal scorers in the history of the game typically saw their totals start to dip as they entered their late 20s - there are exceptions to this, obviously, but, it is still the trend. Players slow down with age - not necessarily in a noticeable way, but even losing a fraction of a second in skating speed or shot release can have a significant impact on production.

If there is a change, it would also be a systematic change, not one that benefits Stamkos specifically; I could also argue for re-upping Tyler Bozak because he has a high shooting percentage and it will likely go up with the equipment size coming down.

Also scoring points, while dandy, is simply one element of any player's game. Even if Stamkos still scores goals because of his shot he's still pretty likely to lose a step in speed as he ages. Brett Hull was still a super effective PP scorer into his 30's but he wasn't the same player he'd been.

 

[TBLeafer]

There's a difference between all the facts and selective facts.

Those that see Stamkos continuing to decline still haven't justified that when I asked how they can come to that conclusion based on shrinking goalie equipment and him with one of the hardest, most accurate shots in the world. 

i have posed the question multiple times and all I got was silence.

That's because you're asking a fundamentally unanswerable question. For one, we don't know what changes to goaltending equipment are going to happen - they haven't been approved by the PA yet. It's likely they'll happen, but it's not a guarantee, nor do we know the exact changes that are going to be made. At this point, all we have is a proposal.

Secondly, we don't know how Stamkos' shot accuracy or velocity may have been impacted by his recent injury, which required a rib to be removed from under his arm. Is there going to be a physical impact? A mental one? A combination of the two? Considering he's played all of one game - in which he was largely ineffective - since undergoing the procedure, there's no clear picture there.

That being said, the expected decline can be somewhat justified based on history of similar players - the best goal scorers in the history of the game typically saw their totals start to dip as they entered their late 20s - there are exceptions to this, obviously, but, it is still the trend. Players slow down with age - not necessarily in a noticeable way, but even losing a fraction of a second in skating speed or shot release can have a significant impact on production.

If there is a change, it would also be a systematic change, not one that benefits Stamkos specifically; I could also argue for re-upping Tyler Bozak because he has a high shooting percentage and it will likely go up with the equipment size coming down.

Bozak has a high shooting % because he doesn't shoot.

Unless it has a high probability from a high danger area, like a rebound or a trying to bury a cross crease feed or a breakaway.

 

[herman]

There's a difference between all the facts and selective facts.

Those that see Stamkos continuing to decline still haven't justified that when I asked how they can come to that conclusion based on shrinking goalie equipment and him with one of the hardest, most accurate shots in the world. 

i have posed the question multiple times and all I got was silence.

That's because you're asking a fundamentally unanswerable question. For one, we don't know what changes to goaltending equipment are going to happen - they haven't been approved by the PA yet. It's likely they'll happen, but it's not a guarantee, nor do we know the exact changes that are going to be made. At this point, all we have is a proposal.

Secondly, we don't know how Stamkos' shot accuracy or velocity may have been impacted by his recent injury, which required a rib to be removed from under his arm. Is there going to be a physical impact? A mental one? A combination of the two? Considering he's played all of one game - in which he was largely ineffective - since undergoing the procedure, there's no clear picture there.

That being said, the expected decline can be somewhat justified based on history of similar players - the best goal scorers in the history of the game typically saw their totals start to dip as they entered their late 20s - there are exceptions to this, obviously, but, it is still the trend. Players slow down with age - not necessarily in a noticeable way, but even losing a fraction of a second in skating speed or shot release can have a significant impact on production.

If there is a change, it would also be a systematic change, not one that benefits Stamkos specifically; I could also argue for re-upping Tyler Bozak because he has a high shooting percentage and it will likely go up with the equipment size coming down.

but....but...ummmm...you know bozaks already under contract right?

Only until 2018! We should get in on this early. I can see him shooting 30%. Do we want him walking away into free agency if he can snipe all day on the goalie's mini-pads?

Bozak's highest SH% was 21.1% in 2013-14; Stamkos' highest was only 20.2% that same year.

 

[TBLeafer]

That's because you're asking a fundamentally unanswerable question. For one, we don't know what changes to goaltending equipment are going to happen - they haven't been approved by the PA yet. It's likely they'll happen, but it's not a guarantee, nor do we know the exact changes that are going to be made. At this point, all we have is a proposal.

Secondly, we don't know how Stamkos' shot accuracy or velocity may have been impacted by his recent injury, which required a rib to be removed from under his arm. Is there going to be a physical impact? A mental one? A combination of the two? Considering he's played all of one game - in which he was largely ineffective - since undergoing the procedure, there's no clear picture there.

That being said, the expected decline can be somewhat justified based on history of similar players - the best goal scorers in the history of the game typically saw their totals start to dip as they entered their late 20s - there are exceptions to this, obviously, but, it is still the trend. Players slow down with age - not necessarily in a noticeable way, but even losing a fraction of a second in skating speed or shot release can have a significant impact on production.

If there is a change, it would also be a systematic change, not one that benefits Stamkos specifically; I could also argue for re-upping Tyler Bozak because he has a high shooting percentage and it will likely go up with the equipment size coming down.

Also scoring points, while dandy, is simply one element of any player's game. Even if Stamkos still scores goals because of his shot he's still pretty likely to lose a step in speed as he ages. Brett Hull was still a super effective PP scorer into his 30's but he wasn't the same player he'd been.

Good to know then, that Stamkos would only have three years remaining on his contract once he turns 30.