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[wnc096]

In about 1/3 of the cases, there were deals done longer than Kessel's 8 years. But in 2/3rd of the cases, they were Kessel's 8 year length or less.

Nice try. But that doesn't explain it.

Uh huh. And how many of those shorter deals were given to players who were pending UFA's? Comparing UFA prices to RFA deals is bogus and you know it.

I mean, it's not that difficult a concept. Compare Kessel's deal to the ones signed by the real top players after the last lockout as pending UFA's. There is going to be as much distance between Patrick Kane's annual cap hit(1.06 ppg the last three seasons with Toews) and Kessel(.93 ppg the last three seasons with Bozak) as there is between Kessel and Dave Bolland(.46 ppg the last three seasons). Kane isn't a defensive dynamo. Kane, I think it's safe to say, has some issues with character. Kane wouldn't, I don't think, be on most people's list for top 10 players in the league either.

Kessel's contract is not paying him what a top 10 player in this league will sign for under the existing CBA. There's just no way around that.

If kessel and Kane swapped teams...I have no doubt in my mind Kessl would out produce Kane in Chicago, and people in Toronto would be on a witchunt for Kane's head.

Kessel is a great hockey player...he just isn't the go-to superstar.  He is a backstrom, Kane, mogilny, leclair types.  Great players,  just not the best players on their teams,  and that's why those players thrived.  He's simply miscast by fans and the media in Toronto.

 

[mr grieves]

And none of these guys below him, for example, will pass him before the end of 2018 because I think they're all signed to at least then:
Weber, Shea
Suter, Ryan
Doughty, Drew
Parise, Zach
Nash, Rick
Chara, Zdeno
Kopitar, Anze
Bergeron, Patrice
Krejci, David
Carter, Jeff
Seguin, Tyler
Zetterberg, Henrik
Backstrom, Nicklas
Price, Carey
etc

My goodness. It's almost as if there were a type of contract available under the old CBA that allowed players to lock into incredibly long contracts at artificially low cap hits.

In about 1/3 of the cases, there were deals done longer than Kessel's 8 years. But in 2/3rd of the cases, they were Kessel's 8 year length or less.

Nice try. But that doesn't explain it.

I wonder how the UFA contracts signed under this CBA compare when looked at as % of the salary cap when they were signed. There's certainly some inflation that needs to be controlled for.

Seems to me Kessel's paid as if he's the best player on this team. And he is. And this team's not awful because he isn't good enough but because, through other poor decisions, the team doesn't have good enough players to complement a game that is, like most of those on the list above, incomplete.  We can disagree about what those poor decisions** were, but blaming Kessel for not being Getzlaf or Crosby isn't one of them and sounds crazy enough that the misunderstanding of what ails this team should be obvious enough.


** For example, I think management's overcommitments to mediocre (Bozak) to terrible (Clarkson, Orr, McLaren) players at the expense of the flexibility that'd allow a team to retain (MacArthur, Grabovski) or bring along (Colborne) good or promising ones worsened a team that stumbled into the playoffs; those commitments not only kept them from developing areas of strength but also distracted a best-case-scenario bubble team from getting the pieces it actually needed (top4 D and a better top6 center) to be an actual playoff team. Nik, as I understand it, thinks all that tinkering would've been futile, as the cost of acquiring Kessel made it impossible to find the high-end talent you'd want to stockpile in a rebuild, which is the only way of getting players good enough to complement Kessel such that the team would be able to contend. 

 

[L K]

In about 1/3 of the cases, there were deals done longer than Kessel's 8 years. But in 2/3rd of the cases, they were Kessel's 8 year length or less.

Nice try. But that doesn't explain it.

Uh huh. And how many of those shorter deals were given to players who were pending UFA's? Comparing UFA prices to RFA deals is bogus and you know it.

I mean, it's not that difficult a concept. Compare Kessel's deal to the ones signed by the real top players after the last lockout as pending UFA's. There is going to be as much distance between Patrick Kane's annual cap hit(1.06 ppg the last three seasons with Toews) and Kessel(.93 ppg the last three seasons with Bozak) as there is between Kessel and Dave Bolland(.46 ppg the last three seasons). Kane isn't a defensive dynamo. Kane, I think it's safe to say, has some issues with character. Kane wouldn't, I don't think, be on most people's list for top 10 players in the league either.

Kessel's contract is not paying him what a top 10 player in this league will sign for under the existing CBA. There's just no way around that.

It certainly hasn't helped that the cap projections have fallen significantly short of where the league was heading.  A lot of that having to do with Harper deciding the Canadian economy needed to be saved again because out west was struggling and apparently a 78 cent dollar is what does that.

 

[Frank E]

In about 1/3 of the cases, there were deals done longer than Kessel's 8 years. But in 2/3rd of the cases, they were Kessel's 8 year length or less.

Nice try. But that doesn't explain it.

Uh huh. And how many of those shorter deals were given to players who were pending UFA's? Comparing UFA prices to RFA deals is bogus and you know it.

I mean, it's not that difficult a concept. Compare Kessel's deal to the ones signed by the real top players after the last lockout as pending UFA's. There is going to be as much distance between Patrick Kane's annual cap hit(1.06 ppg the last three seasons with Toews) and Kessel(.93 ppg the last three seasons with Bozak) as there is between Kessel and Dave Bolland(.46 ppg the last three seasons). Kane isn't a defensive dynamo. Kane, I think it's safe to say, has some issues with character. Kane wouldn't, I don't think, be on most people's list for top 10 players in the league either.

Kessel's contract is not paying him what a top 10 player in this league will sign for under the existing CBA. There's just no way around that.

It certainly hasn't helped that the cap projections have fallen significantly short of where the league was heading.  A lot of that having to do with Harper deciding the Canadian economy needed to be saved again because out west was struggling and apparently a 78 cent dollar is what does that.

I know it's not the topic, but I just can't help myself.

We don't actively manipulate the dollar in Canada.  And although a lower dollar value may lessen the blow of low oil value, the economy suffers more inflation from a longer period of a 78 cent dollar.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Kessel's contract is not paying him what a top 10 player in this league will sign for under the existing CBA. There's just no way around that.

Starting next season when Toews & Kane's new contracts begin, and if you adjust for the cap circumventing deals by only looking at the first 8 years of Weber, Parise,and Suter's deals, Kessel has the 15th highest cap hit in the league. For a guy that finished top-10 in scoring 3 seasons in a row that doesn't seem out of line to me. Especially when you consider that guys like Semin, Spezza, Ryan, Stastny, and the Sedin's are all in the $7-8mil range.

 

[slapshot]

This is a fascinating debate about what they might or might not get for Kessel.  But cw's basic point is unassailable: the reason we're having this debate at all is because there are enough doubts about Kessel, on several fronts, that he's not a slam-dunk top 10 player.  Not even close.  But the price we paid to get him was top-10, and he's getting paid now like a top-10.

That's not really true and, to be honest, that's just being purposefully obtuse about the way that the last CBA affected the current salary structure. Kessel's salary will not reflect what a top 10 talent will earn as a UFA going forward. We've seen that with the deals that have been signed since then. The best players in the league are going to have cap hits that will be 15-20% higher than Kessel's.

Johnny Boychuk just got 7 million a year. You're dreaming if you think a top 10 talent would go for 8 million as a UFA.

There is validity to the fact that Kessel's salary appears schewed based on when it was signed compared to when others (better players earning less money) were signed. The new CBA no doubt impacted on that but there tends to be that natural progression in salaries anyway.

I think the real point is, what's eating people about Kessel and others on this team, is they are saying one thing and doing another. I mean in Kessel's last interview on the Leafs site he talks about there being good players on this team, we're working hard out there, blah, blah, blah. Things just aren't going their way. Horacheck rightly called him out on this.

There seems a lot wrong here and a lot of blame to go around. Carlyle said there were exceptions made for Phil. There was the whole Spott incident at the start of the season. It's been reported he's off ice early is practice. He plays like he's not in shape or simply too selfish to get off the ice when he's clearly tired. There was the short-handed goal that he coughed up the other night. He was the last one back. Even Panik blew by him. People are just tired of it. And, it's not just Kessel. They talk about playing with pride and they don't. They come out ill-prepared to even play many games. And, that's been going on for a long time. Even back to Wilson, down 2-0 before you could blink. I think all we can really do is hope the Shanahan, Hunter, Dubas and whoever the next coach is can turn this thing around over time.

 

[Al14]

This is a fascinating debate about what they might or might not get for Kessel.  But cw's basic point is unassailable: the reason we're having this debate at all is because there are enough doubts about Kessel, on several fronts, that he's not a slam-dunk top 10 player.  Not even close.  But the price we paid to get him was top-10, and he's getting paid now like a top-10.

That's not really true and, to be honest, that's just being purposefully obtuse about the way that the last CBA affected the current salary structure. Kessel's salary will not reflect what a top 10 talent will earn as a UFA going forward. We've seen that with the deals that have been signed since then. The best players in the league are going to have cap hits that will be 15-20% higher than Kessel's.

Johnny Boychuk just got 7 million a year. You're dreaming if you think a top 10 talent would go for 8 million as a UFA.

There is validity to the fact that Kessel's salary appears schewed based on when it was signed compared to when others (better players earning less money) were signed. The new CBA no doubt impacted on that but there tends to be that natural progression in salaries anyway.

I think the real point is, what's eating people about Kessel and others on this team, is they are saying one thing and doing another. I mean in Kessel's last interview on the Leafs site he talks about there being good players on this team, we're working hard out there, blah, blah, blah. Things just aren't going their way. Horacheck rightly called him out on this.

There seems a lot wrong here and a lot of blame to go around. Carlyle said there were exceptions made for Phil. There was the whole Spott incident at the start of the season. It's been reported he's off ice early is practice. He plays like he's not in shape or simply too selfish to get off the ice when he's clearly tired. There was the short-handed goal that he coughed up the other night. He was the last one back. Even Panik blew by him. People are just tired of it. And, it's not just Kessel. They talk about playing with pride and they don't. They come out ill-prepared to even play many games. And, that's been going on for a long time. Even back to Wilson, down 2-0 before you could blink. I think all we can really do is hope the Shanahan, Hunter, Dubas and whoever the next coach is can turn this thing around over time.

Phil just doesn't get it!  Instead of staying on the ice longer, waiting for the puck to come to him, he should be going hard trying to get, and keep the puck, getting off the ice before he is too winded to even skate!

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Carlyle said there were exceptions made for Phil.

He said that talented players in sports have to be given more freedom to use their talent and he said that Kessel is that type of very talented player.

There was the short-handed goal that he coughed up the other night. He was the last one back. Even Panik blew by him.

What goal are you talking about?  I looked up all the SHG the Leafs have given up in March and Kessel isn't involved/in a position to catch anyone in some cases or on the ice at all in other cases.

 

[slapshot]

Carlyle said there were exceptions made for Phil.

He said that talented players in sports have to be given more freedom to use their talent and he said that Kessel is that type of very talented player.

There was the short-handed goal that he coughed up the other night. He was the last one back. Even Panik blew by him.

What goal are you talking about?  I looked up all the SHG the Leafs have given up in March and Kessel isn't involved/in a position to catch anyone in some cases or on the ice at all in other cases.

The game I am talking about was Saturday night. Ok, maybe it wasn't technically a short-handed goal. But for all intents and purposes, it was. The Leafs were on the power play against the Canucks Saturday night. Kessel tried to force the play and ended up losing the puck to a Canuck. They rushed down the ice and scored with Phanuef back. If you watch the replay, you will see Kessel is the last guy back. And, you will see Pannik skate back harder and pass him. Just go to the Leafs site, watch the game in 6, and you'll find it in the middle of the clips. Though not technical a short-handed goal. It doesn't change the point I was making.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Carlyle said there were exceptions made for Phil.

He said that talented players in sports have to be given more freedom to use their talent and he said that Kessel is that type of very talented player.

There was the short-handed goal that he coughed up the other night. He was the last one back. Even Panik blew by him.

What goal are you talking about?  I looked up all the SHG the Leafs have given up in March and Kessel isn't involved/in a position to catch anyone in some cases or on the ice at all in other cases.

The game I am talking about was Saturday night. Ok, maybe it wasn't technically a short-handed goal. But for all intents and purposes, it was. The Leafs were on the power play against the Canucks Saturday night. Kessel tried to force the play and ended up losing the puck to a Canuck. They rushed down the ice and scored with Phanuef back. If you watch the replay, you will see Kessel is the last guy back. And, you will see Pannik skate back harder and pass him. Just go to the Leafs site, watch the game in 6, and you'll find it in the middle of the clips. Though not technical a short-handed goal. It doesn't change the point I was making.

Do you watch the games?  For one, it wasn't listed as a SHG so when I went back looking through shorthanded goals only, that goal did not come up.  Hence asking which goal you were referring to.

Second, Kessel didn't try to "force the play" on that goal against.  He was moving in towards the net to take a cross ice pass, the pass was deflected off a Canuck and he had to switch up and try to react to get it on his backhand and wasn't able to.  This is the problem in this thread.  So much is just made up or exaggerated.

I'm not surprised Panik beat him back, Kessel had been on the ice for the full 2:00 PP and Panik had not.  No amount of Kessel trying 700% would have made a lick of difference on that goal against other than to make internet forum commenters find something else about him to criticize instead.

 

[cw]

I happen to cite something specific that happened in 2009 as an example.

An example of something that all subsequent seasons and data refutes. You knew there was more data on which to judge Kessel from a "how often does he score against playoff teams vs. non-playoff teams" and you chose to cite one season, six years ago, that runs contrary to what happened since. Again, transparent and narrow. Kessel has not feasted exclusively on bad teams and people saw through your attempt to paint that picture.

You've lost any and all sense of objectivity on this one. I don't know why that is and I don't know what point you're trying to make with this campaign against the "Kessel is a top 10 player" straw man but I'll at least call it what it is.

"An example of something that all subsequent seasons and data refutes."

Once again, pure nonsense.

Kessel goal scoring since he's been in Toronto
Against playoff teams      .365 gpg
Against non playoff teams .474 gpg

Phil experiences about a 24% drop off in goal scoring when he faces playoff teams in Toronto. That's an improvement over his Boston results but still a significant difference.

So your claim that the Boston 2009 goal scoring data was "An example of something that all subsequent seasons and data refutes." is bogus. Phil came up to Toronto and continued to struggle to score against playoff teams. I didn't think that was a big surprise or something all that notable. I thought for most knowledgeable hockey observers it was kind of obvious.

Now, one could easily say "poor Phil, scoring against better teams is tougher". And to some extent that is true and to be expected.

Let's look at a couple of other goal scorers in the same rental district and how they do:
Stamkos
Against playoff teams      .620 gpg
Against non playoff teams .618 gpg

Stamkos goal scoring against playoff teams is effectively the same as against non playoff teams over the same 2010-2015 period

Ovechkin
Against playoff teams      .565 gpg
Against non playoff teams .601 gpg

Ovechkin experiences about a 6% goal scoring drop against playoff teams

That's a heck of a lot more data than one season. It's not an anomaly. The difference is material. Phil has more trouble scoring against playoff teams than the other top goal scoring guys in his rent district do. He may be making the same sort of dough but Kessel is not in the same class as guys like this. His soft style is more prone to disappear when the going gets tough and to some extent, the data shows it has.

But you shouldn't need the data. All you have to do is watch the guy play. I looked up the data for this post but I didn't need to. I knew what I was going to find. He's a peripheral goal scorer (scores from the outside) - always has been.

In 2009, the allegation was made that Kessel wouldn't be able to score without Savard. In response to that concern, I looked at all of his Boston goals and posted about it on this site in 2009 with the conclusion that Kessel would not need Savard to score because of how he scored. Shame on me for getting acquainted with what Kessel did in Boston and commenting on it.

In my opinion, this looks fairly pertinent to where we find ourselves today.

Last year: The 2013-14 Maple Leafs after 60 games
The current projected playoff cut-off mark, based on the points pace of the final wildcard team, is 90.5 points. The Leafs, currently on a 96-point pace, will  need 21 points out of their remaining 22 games. A 10-11-1 or 9-10-3 record is likely all the Leafs will need to ensure their second consecutive playoff appearance in April.

A furious race to the finish line starts February 27 against the New York Islanders.

Phil had about 67 points in those first 61 games - over a ppg per game, .52 gpg. What does he do in his final 21 games? 13 pts, .24gpg. Now goaltending and team defence slipped so there was more than one thing going on - it's a team sport, etc.

This year, when I looked at a snap shot a few weeks back, goaltending save% was fairly similar before and after the collapse. So was the PK% and GAA. The thing that had collapsed starting in mid December was goal scoring and the PP.

So how did Phil do?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8473548&view=splits&season=20142015&gameType=2
            GP      Goals        Points
Oct-Dec  38        18            41
Jan-Mar  33          6            13

5 power play goals in fall of 2014 vs 2 power play goals in 2015

It's a team sport but "the data" suggests this guy has something to do with where we find ourselves today.

I can accept that he's skilled and soft and that's part of the problem we always knew he had. I can't accept the quitting on his team and the fans. That's what has me upset with him.

 

[Chris]

Is there a single stats site (or a couple of really good ones) that make these kinds of stats (goal breakdown versus playoff/non-playoff teams, stuff like that) easily accessible?

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Well, if he scores 70 but is on the ice for 100+ against, how much does that really help the team?

A great, great deal as no one player, no matter how bad defensively, is responsible for all or even a majority of the goals scored against the team while they're on the ice.

FWIW, the very bottom of the barrel for +/- in the NHL today:

The point being what? Josh Gorges, who was widely regarded as being a very good defensive player before the season began and was a + player in 5 of his previous 6 seasons, easily has the worst +/- to games played of anyone on that list. Keith Yandle, a good player who's been a + player on good teams and has been a plus player since being traded, is right at the bottom too.

I mean, if your point is that +/- is meaningless then, yes, the bottom of this year's +/- list illustrates that pretty well.

You must have missed the FWIW.  I showed that for interests sake, and not everything has to have a point of argument so you can refute it.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

While I disagree with some people on this thread, we're finally getting to a level of dialogue that very few places can replicate.

Good on you all, as it's been a little Salem in here for the past month.

 

[ZBBM]

Carlyle said there were exceptions made for Phil.

He said that talented players in sports have to be given more freedom to use their talent and he said that Kessel is that type of very talented player.

There was the short-handed goal that he coughed up the other night. He was the last one back. Even Panik blew by him.

What goal are you talking about?  I looked up all the SHG the Leafs have given up in March and Kessel isn't involved/in a position to catch anyone in some cases or on the ice at all in other cases.

The game I am talking about was Saturday night. Ok, maybe it wasn't technically a short-handed goal. But for all intents and purposes, it was. The Leafs were on the power play against the Canucks Saturday night. Kessel tried to force the play and ended up losing the puck to a Canuck. They rushed down the ice and scored with Phanuef back. If you watch the replay, you will see Kessel is the last guy back. And, you will see Pannik skate back harder and pass him. Just go to the Leafs site, watch the game in 6, and you'll find it in the middle of the clips. Though not technical a short-handed goal. It doesn't change the point I was making.

Do you watch the games?  For one, it wasn't listed as a SHG so when I went back looking through shorthanded goals only, that goal did not come up.  Hence asking which goal you were referring to.

Second, Kessel didn't try to "force the play" on that goal against.  He was moving in towards the net to take a cross ice pass, the pass was deflected off a Canuck and he had to switch up and try to react to get it on his backhand and wasn't able to.  This is the problem in this thread.  So much is just made up or exaggerated.

I'm not surprised Panik beat him back, Kessel had been on the ice for the full 2:00 PP and Panik had not.  No amount of Kessel trying 700% would have made a lick of difference on that goal against other than to make internet forum commenters find something else about him to criticize instead.

Kessel was out the full 2 minutes on the PP, but so were the defenders who scored the goal -- unless they got a change in somehow, but I don't think they did?  Anyway, that was the point: guys defending for 2 minutes ought to be even more gassed than someone playing offense, yet they blew by him.  And it was for all intents and purposes a SHG, it was like 2 seconds after.

 

[Deebo]

How could Bonino have blown by Kessel if he already was on the other side of him when he picked up the puck?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Carlyle said there were exceptions made for Phil.

He said that talented players in sports have to be given more freedom to use their talent and he said that Kessel is that type of very talented player.

There was the short-handed goal that he coughed up the other night. He was the last one back. Even Panik blew by him.

What goal are you talking about?  I looked up all the SHG the Leafs have given up in March and Kessel isn't involved/in a position to catch anyone in some cases or on the ice at all in other cases.

The game I am talking about was Saturday night. Ok, maybe it wasn't technically a short-handed goal. But for all intents and purposes, it was. The Leafs were on the power play against the Canucks Saturday night. Kessel tried to force the play and ended up losing the puck to a Canuck. They rushed down the ice and scored with Phanuef back. If you watch the replay, you will see Kessel is the last guy back. And, you will see Pannik skate back harder and pass him. Just go to the Leafs site, watch the game in 6, and you'll find it in the middle of the clips. Though not technical a short-handed goal. It doesn't change the point I was making.

Do you watch the games?  For one, it wasn't listed as a SHG so when I went back looking through shorthanded goals only, that goal did not come up.  Hence asking which goal you were referring to.

Second, Kessel didn't try to "force the play" on that goal against.  He was moving in towards the net to take a cross ice pass, the pass was deflected off a Canuck and he had to switch up and try to react to get it on his backhand and wasn't able to.  This is the problem in this thread.  So much is just made up or exaggerated.

I'm not surprised Panik beat him back, Kessel had been on the ice for the full 2:00 PP and Panik had not.  No amount of Kessel trying 700% would have made a lick of difference on that goal against other than to make internet forum commenters find something else about him to criticize instead.

Kessel was out the full 2 minutes on the PP, but so were the defenders who scored the goal -- unless they got a change in somehow, but I don't think they did?  Anyway, that was the point: guys defending for 2 minutes ought to be even more gassed than someone playing offense, yet they blew by him.  And it was for all intents and purposes a SHG, it was like 2 seconds after.

I was commenting that it wasn't a SHG as the reason why I could not find the clip to review it when searching for SHG's scored against the Leafs recently - not because I needed to 'watch the games'.

As Deebo said, Bonino was already a couple strides ahead of Kessel by the time he got the puck (and no one else caught him either) and he fed it to Dorsett who had changed midway through the PK to get on the ice.

 

[cw]

Carlyle said there were exceptions made for Phil.

He said that talented players in sports have to be given more freedom to use their talent and he said that Kessel is that type of very talented player.

There was the short-handed goal that he coughed up the other night. He was the last one back. Even Panik blew by him.

What goal are you talking about?  I looked up all the SHG the Leafs have given up in March and Kessel isn't involved/in a position to catch anyone in some cases or on the ice at all in other cases.

The game I am talking about was Saturday night. Ok, maybe it wasn't technically a short-handed goal. But for all intents and purposes, it was. The Leafs were on the power play against the Canucks Saturday night. Kessel tried to force the play and ended up losing the puck to a Canuck. They rushed down the ice and scored with Phanuef back. If you watch the replay, you will see Kessel is the last guy back. And, you will see Pannik skate back harder and pass him. Just go to the Leafs site, watch the game in 6, and you'll find it in the middle of the clips. Though not technical a short-handed goal. It doesn't change the point I was making.

Do you watch the games?  For one, it wasn't listed as a SHG so when I went back looking through shorthanded goals only, that goal did not come up.  Hence asking which goal you were referring to.

Second, Kessel didn't try to "force the play" on that goal against.  He was moving in towards the net to take a cross ice pass, the pass was deflected off a Canuck and he had to switch up and try to react to get it on his backhand and wasn't able to.  This is the problem in this thread.  So much is just made up or exaggerated.

I'm not surprised Panik beat him back, Kessel had been on the ice for the full 2:00 PP and Panik had not.  No amount of Kessel trying 700% would have made a lick of difference on that goal against other than to make internet forum commenters find something else about him to criticize instead.

Kessel was out the full 2 minutes on the PP, but so were the defenders who scored the goal -- unless they got a change in somehow, but I don't think they did?  Anyway, that was the point: guys defending for 2 minutes ought to be even more gassed than someone playing offense, yet they blew by him.  And it was for all intents and purposes a SHG, it was like 2 seconds after.

Bonino, who carried the puck up the ice with more gas than Kessel, was on for the full 2 mins. Dorsett, who scored, came on for the 2nd minute of the PK and had been on for about a minute.
http://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/boxscore?id=2014021025

I'm not sure why so many of them were on the ice for the full 2 mins (Phaneuf, Brennan, Bozak) - only Panik was able to relieve JvR about 30 seconds before the goal

 

[slapshot]

Carlyle said there were exceptions made for Phil.

He said that talented players in sports have to be given more freedom to use their talent and he said that Kessel is that type of very talented player.

There was the short-handed goal that he coughed up the other night. He was the last one back. Even Panik blew by him.

What goal are you talking about?  I looked up all the SHG the Leafs have given up in March and Kessel isn't involved/in a position to catch anyone in some cases or on the ice at all in other cases.

The game I am talking about was Saturday night. Ok, maybe it wasn't technically a short-handed goal. But for all intents and purposes, it was. The Leafs were on the power play against the Canucks Saturday night. Kessel tried to force the play and ended up losing the puck to a Canuck. They rushed down the ice and scored with Phanuef back. If you watch the replay, you will see Kessel is the last guy back. And, you will see Pannik skate back harder and pass him. Just go to the Leafs site, watch the game in 6, and you'll find it in the middle of the clips. Though not technical a short-handed goal. It doesn't change the point I was making.

Do you watch the games?  For one, it wasn't listed as a SHG so when I went back looking through shorthanded goals only, that goal did not come up.  Hence asking which goal you were referring to.

Second, Kessel didn't try to "force the play" on that goal against.  He was moving in towards the net to take a cross ice pass, the pass was deflected off a Canuck and he had to switch up and try to react to get it on his backhand and wasn't able to.  This is the problem in this thread.  So much is just made up or exaggerated.

I'm not surprised Panik beat him back, Kessel had been on the ice for the full 2:00 PP and Panik had not.  No amount of Kessel trying 700% would have made a lick of difference on that goal against other than to make internet forum commenters find something else about him to criticize instead.

Kessel was out the full 2 minutes on the PP, but so were the defenders who scored the goal -- unless they got a change in somehow, but I don't think they did?  Anyway, that was the point: guys defending for 2 minutes ought to be even more gassed than someone playing offense, yet they blew by him.  And it was for all intents and purposes a SHG, it was like 2 seconds after.

Thank you Zanzibar. I am not a Kessel basher. People will see I have defended him many times. But his play and attitude of late is pretty defenceless, and not him alone. Staying on the ice for a full two minutes is selfish in my opinion, especially when you are not scoring.

I also don't like the way they set up on the PP, with four guys deep (two at hash marks, two around net) and only Phaneuf at the centre of the blueline. Just an accident waiting to happen. No wonder they have so many short-handed goals against.

 

[cw]

In about 1/3 of the cases, there were deals done longer than Kessel's 8 years. But in 2/3rd of the cases, they were Kessel's 8 year length or less.

Nice try. But that doesn't explain it.

Uh huh. And how many of those shorter deals were given to players who were pending UFA's? Comparing UFA prices to RFA deals is bogus and you know it.

I mean, it's not that difficult a concept. Compare Kessel's deal to the ones signed by the real top players after the last lockout as pending UFA's. There is going to be as much distance between Patrick Kane's annual cap hit(1.06 ppg the last three seasons with Toews) and Kessel(.93 ppg the last three seasons with Bozak) as there is between Kessel and Dave Bolland(.46 ppg the last three seasons). Kane isn't a defensive dynamo. Kane, I think it's safe to say, has some issues with character. Kane wouldn't, I don't think, be on most people's list for top 10 players in the league either.

Kessel's contract is not paying him what a top 10 player in this league will sign for under the existing CBA. There's just no way around that.

The GMs will settle this after the season is over.

If Kessel isn't over paid and as good as some maintain, the GMs will be falling over themselves trying to get their mitts on him and offering a Kings ransom.

Quite frankly, a few GMs had the space to have done that at the deadline if they really wanted him.

I don't think Phil and his contract are going to draw the stampede of GMs and top draft picks/prospects some are hoping for. We'll find out soon enough.