The Brian Burke Thread

[Bender]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

Well that's only part of the truth though. A large part of the Sens success is Spezza, Gonchar and Alfredsson who are aging (Spezza least of the bunch).

Let's see what the Sens are competing for in 3-4 years.

Their prospect pool isn't bad. Zibanejad, Stone, Puempel could all be pretty good, but they'd definitely be a lot weaker even without Alfredsson.

 

[Zee]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

The Sens were not as bad as their record last year.  Clouston totally destroyed the confidence in that room IMHO.  Also, they never reached the low of the Leafs because they still had premier talent in place even during their lean years, and they just had to build around it.

The Leafs don't have that premier talent.  It's supposed to be Phanuef and Kessel, but even then, it's not really enough.

So Clouston was an issue?  There's many on this board that think Wilson is an issue too.  A coach can have a huge effect on a team, and they're a prime example.  The Leafs have top end talent, Kessel, Lupul, Grabovski and Phaneuf have played well enough.  Aside from Karlsson and Spezza having a great year, they're no more ahead in terms of top end talent.

How about solid goaltending? Anderson at .913 SV% does help a lot.

Yeah I've mentioned goaltending.  Burke went with 2 unproven goalies (Reimer played 35 games total) so this is on him.  Sure if Reimer played like last season all would have been well, but he hasn't.  Burke should have had a "plan B" in that case.  There were many pundits sayings the Leafs should get a veteran goalie as insurance in case of this scenario, but Burke said the goaltending was solidified.  Right when Reimer got hurt, the Leafs should have been in the market for a goalie. 

 

[Bender]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

The Sens were not as bad as their record last year.  Clouston totally destroyed the confidence in that room IMHO.  Also, they never reached the low of the Leafs because they still had premier talent in place even during their lean years, and they just had to build around it.

The Leafs don't have that premier talent.  It's supposed to be Phanuef and Kessel, but even then, it's not really enough.

So Clouston was an issue?  There's many on this board that think Wilson is an issue too.  A coach can have a huge effect on a team, and they're a prime example.  The Leafs have top end talent, Kessel, Lupul, Grabovski and Phaneuf have played well enough.  Aside from Karlsson and Spezza having a great year, they're no more ahead in terms of top end talent.

How about solid goaltending? Anderson at .913 SV% does help a lot.

Yeah I've mentioned goaltending.  Burke went with 2 unproven goalies (Reimer played 35 games total) so this is on him.  Sure if Reimer played like last season all would have been well, but he hasn't.  Burke should have had a "plan B" in that case.  There were many pundits sayings the Leafs should get a veteran goalie as insurance in case of this scenario, but they said the goaltending was solidified.  Right when Reimer got hurt, the Leafs should have been in the market for a goalie.

I agree. I think they wanted to give Jonas a fair shake in his contract year, but frankly, I don't have much confidence in him as a goaltender.

 

[Zee]

I really think Burke needs to bite the bullet here and do what's best long term.  That means trading assets that could yield you back prospects/picks.

If he's truly sincere about "I don't just want to make the playoffs and get our asses kicked", then why bother even qualifying this season?  There is no way the Leafs can make a splash in the playoffs with the team as it is now.  The goaltending is highly suspect, and aside from the top line we're not getting loads of production from other players.

So, trade guys who other teams might want for a playoff run.  The prices are high right now.  What can you get for a 20-25 goal man in MacArthur?  What about Grabovski?  I think even a guy like Colby Armstrong can yield you a decent pick because he's the type of grinder a top team would like in the playoffs. 

Burke should look at ways to bring in even more young talent, and that means being sellers at the deadline.  Address the goaltending situation in the summer when you have even more assets to move and secure a true #1

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

I really think Burke needs to bite the bullet here and do what's best long term.  That means trading assets that could yield you back prospects/picks.

If he's truly sincere about "I don't just want to make the playoffs and get our asses kicked", then why bother even qualifying this season?  There is no way the Leafs can make a splash in the playoffs with the team as it is now.  The goaltending is highly suspect, and aside from the top line we're not getting loads of production from other players.

So, trade guys who other teams might want for a playoff run.  The prices are high right now.  What can you get for a 20-25 goal man in MacArthur?  What about Grabovski?  I think even a guy like Colby Armstrong can yield you a decent pick because he's the type of grinder a top team would like in the playoffs. 

Burke should look at ways to bring in even more young talent, and that means being sellers at the deadline.  Address the goaltending situation in the summer when you have even more assets to move and secure a true #1

I would support this.

Sent from MacBook Wheel not using Tapatalk.

 

[Zee]

I really think Burke needs to bite the bullet here and do what's best long term.  That means trading assets that could yield you back prospects/picks.

If he's truly sincere about "I don't just want to make the playoffs and get our asses kicked", then why bother even qualifying this season?  There is no way the Leafs can make a splash in the playoffs with the team as it is now.  The goaltending is highly suspect, and aside from the top line we're not getting loads of production from other players.

So, trade guys who other teams might want for a playoff run.  The prices are high right now.  What can you get for a 20-25 goal man in MacArthur?  What about Grabovski?  I think even a guy like Colby Armstrong can yield you a decent pick because he's the type of grinder a top team would like in the playoffs. 

Burke should look at ways to bring in even more young talent, and that means being sellers at the deadline.  Address the goaltending situation in the summer when you have even more assets to move and secure a true #1

I would support this.

Sent from MacBook Wheel not using Tapatalk.

I forgot to add, subtracting guys like Grabovski, MacArthur, Armstrong allows you to bring up the Frattins, Kadris and Colbornes of the world and have a nice long look at them over the last 20 games of the season.  Assess and move forward.

 

[ZBBM]

The Leafs have top end talent, Kessel, Lupul, Grabovski and Phaneuf have played well enough. 

No offense Zee, but adding Phaneuf into that group drives me nuts.  My point in bumping this thread last night was that BB, who has undeniably made some good moves, has hamstrung us with two completely unnecessary ones: extending Wilson and giving Phaneuf the C. 

Here, I'm focusing on Phaneuf, and what I don't understand is how people can just give him a pass and say he's playing good enough.  He is not.  His offense is spotty at best, his defense is atrocious (and I mean that not only in the sense that he doesn't play defense positionally very well, he doesn't win battles or do things that a leader should do -- see last night's second goal for one of many cases in point), and he hasn't hit anybody since that game where he got his dad all excited.

By giving him the C, Burke/Wilson made him virtually untradeable, and perhaps even worse, unbenchable.  It's Phaneuf's turn to cool his heels in the pressbox for a few games, but because of the optics, and because their egos would be bruised, BB/Wilson won't.  And that hurts the team.

 

[proteus2000]

No point bashing Burke. We can just let the team performance speak for itself.

4 years in and the goal tending is still a mess, the team is bound to miss the play offs again.

For all the talk of improvement this team is no pace for only 2 pts ahead of last year. 

He has 7.5 million in contracts sitting in the press box.

He also has Lombardi and Connolly at another 8 million contributing cool 40 pts so far this season forming one of the most ineffective, expensive 3rd lines ever seen.

Given all this he has one of the most expensive, biggest, entourage of executives around him. Also one of the most expensive coaches and certainly the most expensive goal tending coach in the league.

The new owners will certainly take a good hard look at what this guy is bringing.

The sad fact is, you take a look another team like the Sens, they had 74 points last year, were worse off than the Leafs, and then a shrewd move here and there (new coach, new goalie among others) and suddenly they're in the mix for playoffs.  The funny thing is, Ottawa didn't even expect to be this good so there's no panic in them to make the playoffs this year.  The Leafs have been trying to build for 3-4 years now and we're arguably BEHIND the Sens in terms of overall progress.  A quick turnaround can happen, Burke has fumbled the ball on this.

I agree this is quite depressing. Ottawa brought in a veteran goalie and made a coaching change, 2 things the Leafs didn't do. Sure it will hurt a little losing Alfie and Gonchar, but Spezza is 28 and plays a very smart/non physical game, he will be good for the next 5-7 years. The Sens have a bunch of players up and coming that will replace the output of Alfie/Gonchar.

 

[Peter D.]

I really think Burke needs to bite the bullet here and do what's best long term.

I agree, but my fear is that Burke's ego is too big that he is going to do something in haste.  We fans think we're impatient; Burke's the epitome of it. 

I've mentioned this before and got some flak for it, but I really wish Burke would just shut up the majority of the time.

 

[L K]

I really think Burke needs to bite the bullet here and do what's best long term.

I agree, but my fear is that Burke's ego is too big that he is going to do something in haste.  We fans think we're impatient; Burke's the epitome of it. 

I've mentioned this before and got some flak for it, but I really wish Burke would just shut up the majority of the time.

I don't think Burke has been very rash.  He's been pretty consistent.  Don't dare question my coach or I'll come after you in the media and say that you are just biased and don't like him because he doesn't listen to you.

 

[Bullfrog]

I forgot to add, subtracting guys like Grabovski, MacArthur, Armstrong allows you to bring up the Frattins, Kadris and Colbornes of the world and have a nice long look at them over the last 20 games of the season.  Assess and move forward.

And what if the assessment proves that the guys they gave away were much better and the younger ones will never reach their level?

 

[Zee]

I forgot to add, subtracting guys like Grabovski, MacArthur, Armstrong allows you to bring up the Frattins, Kadris and Colbornes of the world and have a nice long look at them over the last 20 games of the season.  Assess and move forward.

And what if the assessment proves that the guys they gave away were much better and the younger ones will never reach their level?

You have to turn over the roster, Grabovski is 28 and set to cash in on a huge contract, MacArthur is turning 27 and he's a proven 20+ goal man, so yeah they're tough to replace but you have to try and re-tool somewhere.  Those guys would be attractive to teams who are contending right now, something the Leafs don't look ready to do.  You have to continue to try and develop younger talent, and also try to draft and trade well. 

The chances that ALL the players on the Marlies never reach the level of either Grabovski or MacArthur?  Sure it's possible, but if that's the case the Leafs have far deeper issues than anyone cares to admit.

 

[TML fan]

I forgot to add, subtracting guys like Grabovski, MacArthur, Armstrong allows you to bring up the Frattins, Kadris and Colbornes of the world and have a nice long look at them over the last 20 games of the season.  Assess and move forward.

And what if the assessment proves that the guys they gave away were much better and the younger ones will never reach their level?

Then we go from "probably not making the playoffs" to "definitely not making the playoffs". Oh well.

 

[Tigger]

This doesn't need to be rehashed yet again because its so far from reality, its ridiculous.

This.

 

[Kaberle15]

Then we go from "probably not making the playoffs" to "definitely not making the playoffs". Oh well.

Right now, 11 points separate the Leafs from the #2 overall draft position...

 

[lc9]

This doesn't need to be rehashed yet again because its so far from reality, its ridiculous.

This.

OK, what is the direction? 

 

[Corn Flake]

This doesn't need to be rehashed yet again because its so far from reality, its ridiculous.

This.

OK, what is the direction?

I'm not sure what kind of detail you are looking for here but the number of young players moved into the NHL lineup, all in meaningful roles, plus the number of prospects acquired in the last few years and developing/showing improvement at all levels from the AHL to CHL to US College, etc., should really speak for itself. 

Add all those up and explain to us why you think its a system with no direction and not developing players. 

 

[Bender]

This doesn't need to be rehashed yet again because its so far from reality, its ridiculous.

This.

OK, what is the direction?

I'm not sure what kind of detail you are looking for here but the number of young players moved into the NHL lineup, all in meaningful roles, plus the number of prospects acquired in the last few years and developing/showing improvement at all levels from the AHL to CHL to US College, etc., should really speak for itself. 

Add all those up and explain to us why you think its a system with no direction and not developing players.

Yeah,

I mean I don't understand how this isn't progress. And it's not like we're not a work in progress. We aren't a team built to contend yet and I don't think Burke is pretending like this team is that! Make the playoffs if you can, contend long term, don't mortgage the future.

I mean, honestly, is this not what we wanted all those years?

 

[lc9]

I'm not sure what kind of detail you are looking for here but the number of young players moved into the NHL lineup, all in meaningful roles, plus the number of prospects acquired in the last few years and developing/showing improvement at all levels from the AHL to CHL to US College, etc., should really speak for itself. 

Add all those up and explain to us why you think its a system with no direction and not developing players. 

I fail to see how this any different than what any other team does, ie. get young players, develop young players.  The player acquisitions seem to be a hodgepodge with no direction. 

Examples of no direction:
-Signs Versteeg then trades Versteeg before the year is out
-Signs Komisarek, gives him the "A" and then he is benched
-Trades for Phanuef and gives him the "C."  Dion stinks
-Brings up Reimer who has 30 good games.  Signs him to 3 year deal
-Signs Brent Lebda, does whatever it takes to get rid of Lebda

Please share what development you see?  Kessel is the same player since we traded for him (which I am not complaining about), Kulimen seems to have regressed, Armstrong hasn't seen the ice, Kadri can't stay with the big club, Aulie isn't consistent.

Here are our best players:
Kessel
Lupul
Grabovski

These were all good players when Burke acquired them, what have the Leafs done to make these players better?

Gustavson and Reimer, both leaf products, have turned out (up to this point) to be below average and Phanuef is one of our worst defenseman.  Burke says he wants truculence, than he acquires all soft players.  Wilson says his team wants to be one of puck possesion, yet the leafs dump the puck from their own zone like its a hot potato. 

There is no consistency in how Burke has operated since he got here, more knee-jerk reactions than anything.  There is no system on the ice that is useable to make the playoffs, the players don't understand d-zone coverage and the goalies don't understand angles.

Everything appears to be without direction, which is why we keep missing the playoffs.

 

[lc9]

I mean, honestly, is this not what we wanted all those years?

I am guessing the only thing Leafs fans want is a good team.  We don't have that, and we are not close to that. 

What Burke has given us is not what the Leafs fans wanted at all, another 5 years without the playoffs.  I mean what the hell, how long can it take?  Enough is enough.