The Brian Burke Thread

[Peter D.]

The one thing I find ironic about the whole Pittsburgh/Crosby comment is that Burke was the other G.M. on the podium when it was announced who was going to have the right to draft Crosby. 

I highly doubt he would have pointed to his Anaheim team and suggested "my ass" to that model basically discrediting the drafting of players like Getzlaf and Perry.

 

[Zee]

The one thing I find ironic about the whole Pittsburgh/Crosby comment is that Burke was the other G.M. on the podium when it was announced who was going to have the right to draft Crosby. 

I highly doubt he would have pointed to his Anaheim team and suggested "my ass" to that model basically discrediting the drafting of players like Getzlaf and Perry.

Burke misjudged the team when he first got here and he's never admitted it.  He traded 2 first round picks for Kessel, when in that draft year the top 2 guys were potential 1st line centers - Hall and Seguin.  In any GMs book, a top line center is a good starting point, like Pittsburgh did with Malkin as a pick.  Now they're still looking for a top line center, when we could have had one in the bank.

It's Burke's own fault.  Had he come in here and preached patience, and building through the draft, maybe we have the young core of top-line talent that rivaled what Pittsburgh started doing in the early 2000s.  If he had sold that approach to the fans, the fan base at least would believe in that strategy and say "yes we are bottoming out, but we're building top picks in the process".  He can't even point to that, because his strategy has been all over the map since he got here.

 

[bustaheims]

They took Malkin and Fleury BEFORE Crosby -- that's a good starting point right there.  A #1 goalie and a #1 center.  They then chose Staal the year AFTER Crosby, another potential star center.  The Leafs traded their top draft picks for Kessel.

Well, drafting Staal after is kind of part of my point. Without Crosby, do they still draft Staal, or do they go for Toews or Backstrom instead? How does that change the team? What other trades do they make or not make? Winning the Crosby lottery also played a big part in them ending up with Letang - they don't win the lottery, they don't draft first in round 3 and maybe they don't get him.

Winning the Crosby lottery was the key moment of the Pittsburgh rebuild. They don't do that, and maybe they don't progress past the stage where Atlanta was after getting Kovalchuk, Heatley and Lehtonen.

 

[Bender]

The one thing that really grinds me is the fact that Burke said that he doesn't want to haul in first round picks because he doesn't want to make the team wait another 3 years. Hell, at this rate we'll be waiting that long regardless.

I like how he said that we need to make change, but really it sounds like he's marooned right now.

 

[Frank E]

You can take Crosby off the Pens team right now, and they still have a top team...why?  Because they have other key players they also drafted high.  That's the model, not just luck.  Burke dismissed it outright and suggested it's ALL Crosby -- that is, to take his line, "my ass"

It's not all Crosby, but it's undeniable that winning the Crosby lottery has had a massive impact on the types of moves the Pens have made since the 2005 draft, and that has played a significant part in making them the team they are right now. If they didn't get Crosby back then, who know what they'd look like right now or what time of team they'd be? Winning the Crosby lottery was the turning point for that franchise, no doubt about it.

I think you could make an argument suggesting that without Malkin, that team wouldn't be where it is....same with Fleury.

I like Burke and all, but they beat the hell out of the Leafs' record without Crosby in the lineup.

Sure it took forever, but the result is pretty damn impressive...how's the Leafs' future outlook at this point?  No Fleury or Malkin to build around, never mind Sidney effin Crosby.

Burke is usually sharper than that.

 

[Zee]

The one thing that really grinds me is the fact that Burke said that he doesn't want to haul in first round picks because he doesn't want to make the team wait another 3 years. Hell, at this rate we'll be waiting that long regardless.

I like how he said that we need to make change, but really it sounds like he's marooned right now.

He talks out of both sides of his mouth.  You're 100% right, he doesn't want the fans to have to wait "3-4 more years" for draft picks to pan out, but that suggests that the Leafs can suddenly become a legitimate playoff team in far shorter time frame then that, because is Burke's own words "I don't just want to make the playoffs and get our asses kicked"

So, we can't wait 3-4 years for picks to pan out, hence we'll be a legitimate contender in less than 3-4 years.  Great.  His plan has worked wonders the last 3-4 years.

 

[Peter D.]

The one thing that really grinds me is the fact that Burke said that he doesn't want to haul in first round picks because he doesn't want to make the team wait another 3 years. Hell, at this rate we'll be waiting that long regardless.

This is pretty much it.  He proclaimed the same thing without wanting a 5-year rebuild.  Well guess what, we're pushing on 4 years and the team is not much further ahead than what it was before.

I don't doubt for a second that Burke has some master plan that hopefully somehow, some way, comes to fruition.  But I can't help but feel he is short-sighted/narrow in his thinking at times. 

 

[Zee]

They took Malkin and Fleury BEFORE Crosby -- that's a good starting point right there.  A #1 goalie and a #1 center.  They then chose Staal the year AFTER Crosby, another potential star center.  The Leafs traded their top draft picks for Kessel.

Well, drafting Staal after is kind of part of my point. Without Crosby, do they still draft Staal, or do they go for Toews or Backstrom instead? How does that change the team? What other trades do they make or not make? Winning the Crosby lottery also played a big part in them ending up with Letang - they don't win the lottery, they don't draft first in round 3 and maybe they don't get him.

Winning the Crosby lottery was the key moment of the Pittsburgh rebuild. They don't do that, and maybe they don't progress past the stage where Atlanta was after getting Kovalchuk, Heatley and Lehtonen.

I can't believe that line I just bolded.  Drafting Crosby changes what they did in the 2006 draft --ok.  So they might not have drafted Staal, but instead drafted yet another superstar player in either Toews or Backstrom.  This is a problem how?

The point is, they had a first round pick, and took a great player, they didn't just trade it away.  They stuck to their plan, even with Crosby and Malkin in the fold.  They figured you can't have enough top-end center talent, and they were right.

Would the Leafs kill to have one of Staal, Toews, Backstrom, Malkin on the team?  I'm pretty sure they would.

 

[Corn Flake]

You can take Crosby off the Pens team right now, and they still have a top team...why?  Because they have other key players they also drafted high.  That's the model, not just luck.  Burke dismissed it outright and suggested it's ALL Crosby -- that is, to take his line, "my ass"

It's not all Crosby, but it's undeniable that winning the Crosby lottery has had a massive impact on the types of moves the Pens have made since the 2005 draft, and that has played a significant part in making them the team they are right now. If they didn't get Crosby back then, who know what they'd look like right now or what time of team they'd be? Winning the Crosby lottery was the turning point for that franchise, no doubt about it.

They took Malkin and Fleury BEFORE Crosby -- that's a good starting point right there.  A #1 goalie and a #1 center.  They then chose Staal the year AFTER Crosby, another potential star center.  The Leafs traded their top draft picks for Kessel.

You think that without Crosby the Pens win the cup a few years ago?  I don't. I think they would only now .... after all those high picks and rebuilding is given 4-5 seasons to run its course... be contenders.  Remember.... 4-5 years to draft high then 4-5 years, at least, to let those picks develop. So we are talking NINE years.  But lucky for the Pens, Crosby shaved about 5 years off the time it takes for a rebuilding team to draft AND develop. 

And that's why the Pittsburgh comparison is at least partially unfair.

 

[bustaheims]

I can't believe that line I just bolded.  Drafting Crosby changes what they did in the 2006 draft --ok.  So they might not have drafted Staal, but instead drafted yet another superstar player in either Toews or Backstrom.  This is a problem how?

The point is, they had a first round pick, and took a great player, they didn't just trade it away.  They stuck to their plan, even with Crosby and Malkin in the fold.  They figured you can't have enough top-end center talent, and they were right.

It's not a problem, but it does dramatically change the character of the team, the types of moves they made and so on. Replace Crosby and Staal with just Backstrom and are the Pens still an elite Cup contender type team for as long as they have been? Probably not.

 

[Jalili]

I literally cringed when Burke ripped the Pittsburgh model.  Yes, they got lucky and drafted Crosby in 05, but they also drafted Marc Andre Fleury in 03 and Evgeni Malkin in 04.  They also drafted Kris Letang, who is arguably one of the best all around defenders in the NHL.  On top of that, Shero made shrewd deals (both trades and FA signings) bringing in players like Cooke, Sullivan, Neal, Kunitz, and Dupuis.  The basis of Pittsburgh's success is the draft, that is where their core came from.  To state their calling to success was simply made possible by luck should be an insult to the Pittsburgh organization and to Leaf fans.  Burke stating that he wasn't given a draft lottery victory was also laughable, considering Seguin is now a part of the Bruins organization.  Rather than being patient and properly evaluate the team he inherited he proved he was no better than JFJ.

Absolutely. Pittsburgh played their hand and won big time. Toronto folded their hand before they even knew what it is and put that opportunity in the hands of a division rival.

Pretty similar to ripping the guy who won the poker game because he got ?lucky?.

 

[Zee]

You can take Crosby off the Pens team right now, and they still have a top team...why?  Because they have other key players they also drafted high.  That's the model, not just luck.  Burke dismissed it outright and suggested it's ALL Crosby -- that is, to take his line, "my ass"

It's not all Crosby, but it's undeniable that winning the Crosby lottery has had a massive impact on the types of moves the Pens have made since the 2005 draft, and that has played a significant part in making them the team they are right now. If they didn't get Crosby back then, who know what they'd look like right now or what time of team they'd be? Winning the Crosby lottery was the turning point for that franchise, no doubt about it.

They took Malkin and Fleury BEFORE Crosby -- that's a good starting point right there.  A #1 goalie and a #1 center.  They then chose Staal the year AFTER Crosby, another potential star center.  The Leafs traded their top draft picks for Kessel.

You think that without Crosby the Pens win the cup a few years ago?  I don't. I think they would only now .... after all those high picks and rebuilding is given 4-5 seasons to run its course... be contenders.  Remember.... 4-5 years to draft high then 4-5 years, at least, to let those picks develop. So we are talking NINE years.  But lucky for the Pens, Crosby shaved about 5 years off the time it takes for a rebuilding team to draft AND develop. 

And that's why the Pittsburgh comparison is at least partially unfair.

The point is, Pittsburgh has a plan and stuck to it.  They didn't panic.  Maybe the pressure to "Win now" isn't there in Pittsburgh so they're not apt to make rash decisions, but they built a solid core.  Yes they probably don't win the Cup without Crosby, but they're at least IN THE MIX.  The Leafs aren't even in the remote possibility of being in the mix.  The Penguins have been a 100 point team for a few seasons now because they've build a solid team from top to bottom.  The Leafs should have looked at that approach and seriously tried to copy it.

 

[bustaheims]

Without Crosby, the Penguins might not even be in Pittsburgh anymore. This is a franchise that was on the brink of bankruptcy before they landed the most marketable player in the game.

 

[Zee]

I can't believe that line I just bolded.  Drafting Crosby changes what they did in the 2006 draft --ok.  So they might not have drafted Staal, but instead drafted yet another superstar player in either Toews or Backstrom.  This is a problem how?

The point is, they had a first round pick, and took a great player, they didn't just trade it away.  They stuck to their plan, even with Crosby and Malkin in the fold.  They figured you can't have enough top-end center talent, and they were right.

It's not a problem, but it does dramatically change the character of the team, the types of moves they made and so on. Replace Crosby and Staal with just Backstrom and are the Pens still an elite Cup contender type team for as long as they have been? Probably not.

I'd still take my chances with Malkin and Backstrom as my top 2 centers as opposed to Bozak and Grabovski, but that's just me.

 

[bustaheims]

I'd still take my chances with Malkin and Backstrom as my top 2 centers as opposed to Bozak and Grabovski, but that's just me.

Well, sure, but, I'm not really comparing them to the Leafs. No one is debating that the Leafs need to improve their forwards, it's just that landing Crosby was a monumental step for Pittsburgh. Without him and the types of moves having a generational talent in their organization allows, I strongly believe they would not be anywhere close to as strong a team as they have been. Crosby more than just put them over the top - he cemented the team's direction in how it was to be build. Pittsburgh may have had a plan going in, but that plan changed when they won the Crosby lottery.

 

[Corn Flake]

I literally cringed when Burke ripped the Pittsburgh model.  Yes, they got lucky and drafted Crosby in 05, but they also drafted Marc Andre Fleury in 03 and Evgeni Malkin in 04.  They also drafted Kris Letang, who is arguably one of the best all around defenders in the NHL.  On top of that, Shero made shrewd deals (both trades and FA signings) bringing in players like Cooke, Sullivan, Neal, Kunitz, and Dupuis.  The basis of Pittsburgh's success is the draft, that is where their core came from.  To state their calling to success was simply made possible by luck should be an insult to the Pittsburgh organization and to Leaf fans.  Burke stating that he wasn't given a draft lottery victory was also laughable, considering Seguin is now a part of the Bruins organization.  Rather than being patient and properly evaluate the team he inherited he proved he was no better than JFJ.

Absolutely. Pittsburgh played their hand and won big time. Toronto folded their hand before they even knew what it is and put that opportunity in the hands of a division rival.

Pretty similar to ripping the guy who won the poker game because he got ?lucky?.

Sorry, what? You are using the Pittsburgh history to back how the Leafs traded picks to Boston? 

Nobody is calling Boston lucky here.

 

[Jalili]

I literally cringed when Burke ripped the Pittsburgh model.  Yes, they got lucky and drafted Crosby in 05, but they also drafted Marc Andre Fleury in 03 and Evgeni Malkin in 04.  They also drafted Kris Letang, who is arguably one of the best all around defenders in the NHL.  On top of that, Shero made shrewd deals (both trades and FA signings) bringing in players like Cooke, Sullivan, Neal, Kunitz, and Dupuis.  The basis of Pittsburgh's success is the draft, that is where their core came from.  To state their calling to success was simply made possible by luck should be an insult to the Pittsburgh organization and to Leaf fans.  Burke stating that he wasn't given a draft lottery victory was also laughable, considering Seguin is now a part of the Bruins organization.  Rather than being patient and properly evaluate the team he inherited he proved he was no better than JFJ.

Absolutely. Pittsburgh played their hand and won big time. Toronto folded their hand before they even knew what it is and put that opportunity in the hands of a division rival.

Pretty similar to ripping the guy who won the poker game because he got ?lucky?.

Sorry, what? You are using the Pittsburgh history to back how the Leafs traded picks to Boston? 

Nobody is calling Boston lucky here.

No I am saying that BB is calling Pittsburgh lucky because they managed to turn sh*t into gold during their rebuild, but meanwhile he lacked the foresight to hold on to his own picks during what should have been his team?s rebuild.

 

[Corn Flake]

The point is, Pittsburgh has a plan and stuck to it.  They didn't panic.  Maybe the pressure to "Win now" isn't there in Pittsburgh so they're not apt to make rash decisions, but they built a solid core.  Yes they probably don't win the Cup without Crosby, but they're at least IN THE MIX.  The Leafs aren't even in the remote possibility of being in the mix.  The Penguins have been a 100 point team for a few seasons now because they've build a solid team from top to bottom.  The Leafs should have looked at that approach and seriously tried to copy it.

Okay but what I'm saying is you are not giving this Leafs team the time it needs to let the other non-Crosby level players develop so that they CAN be in the mix. How can you use that comparable without giving the young Leafs team the time to get better?  The best assets Burke has acquired outside of Kessel, Phaneuf and Lupul were all picked in the last 2-3 drafts.

Is this all about the Kessel trade? Geeezus murphy. That 82 point player we got from that sure has failed. Seguin would be nice but you would be trying to find him his Kessel and probably mad about that.  This trade was not the beginning or end of the rebuild, nor would Seguin be any more the great savior of the franchise that Kessel hasn't been.

What about the arm load of other 1st round picks that Burke has acquired, all drafted in the last 2-3 years?  Are they not granted the same years to develop and emerge that the other Pens draft picks got?

You should also remember that the Pens were virtually bankrupt for years before Crosby, were looking to relocate and had owners ready to cash in and get the hell outta dodge.  Pressure to win wasn't there.. pressure to not fold the franchise was priority one.

Not panic? Patience? I see none of that emitting from most of the loudest critics of how Burke has gone about his business. 

 

[Corn Flake]

No I am saying that BB is calling Pittsburgh lucky because they managed to turn sh*t into gold during their rebuild, but meanwhile he lacked the foresight to hold on to his own picks during what should have been his team?s rebuild.

So the entire Leafs rebuild lived and died with the Kessel trade.  Is that what you are saying?

 

[Zee]

I sort of feel bad for Burke, almost, because he was hammered from all sides, by different reporters questioning his every move and strategy.  It's his own fault though.  I think his biggest downfall since he's become GM is OVER-evaluating talent that he thought he had.

A few points off the top of my head:
-- it was brought up in the press conference that Burke at one point said he would put Toronto's top 6 d-men against any other team in the eastern conference.  I believe he's actually said this every season he's been here -- and yet the Leafs are near or at the bottom in the league in defensive categories every season

-- he's gone on record as to proclaiming that the goaltending was where it should be with Reimer. 
In this press conference he reiterated that a) Reimer is the "real deal" and b) the Leafs need help in net.  OK -- don't those 2 statements contradict each other?

-- Leafs need to get "bigger"/"truclulent"/"violent"/"beligerant" -- insert any tough-sounding term here.  He's said this over and over, season after season, and yet as by most opinions and by viewing the on-ice product, the Leafs are a soft, soft team to play against.  Why hasn't he gotten tougher if he believes that teams win that way?

To the last point, it was brought up that Wilson disagreed with his opinion about winning with toughness, so it was asked fairly if he compromised his approach and acquired players who weren't as tough or big, to fit into Wilson's system -- Burke said "no".  WTF?  So on the one hand he wants a tougher team and he hasn't compromised on this point even with Wilson --where's the tougher team then?

It's all these contractions and more that have Burke where he is today.  It's easy to pick apart his team because he's made so many pronouncements about players he's acquired and the talent he thought he had that it's just laughable to look back now 3-4 years from where he said the Leafs would be to where they are now.  Nothing he's done has worked.  I shouldn't say nothing, he's made some good trades, but overall he hasn't put together a solid team.

"Build from the net out" -- this line spoken in 2008 would probably suggest the Leafs are now stacked with a deep talent pool of D and goalies, sure we have lots of bodies -- are they a top group in the league??  No.  Where's the top talent in goal and on defense?  Gardiner?