The Brian Burke Thread

[Kin]

Given Kessel is a superstar and Hamilton hasn't done anything in the NHL yet, the Beauchemin trade, Boston wins the Kessel deal, but the Leafs received a franchise player so no matter what it's not nothing.

Jake Gardiner is a hell of a player and Lupul has been great.

In fairness I do think you need to show a bit of consistency there. Gardiner has had one ok rookie season in the NHL. To categorize him as "a hell of a player" and Hamilton as a complete question mark does seem like you're giving Gardiner credit for his potential and not Hamilton for his.

 

[Kin]

My mother always told me to never answer a question with a question, but here I go anyway:

What was a bigger fleece, the Kessel deal or the Kaberle deal?

(We can all play this game if we want)

It kind of depends, doesn't it? I mean if we're giving Burke credit for that trade despite the draft picks not resulting in anything concrete yet or Colborne don't we have to do the same with Boston for Hamilton and Knight?

 

[Redleaf]

The Beauchemin trade for Lupul and Gardiner was pure robbery. Can anyone think of a bigger heist over the past few years in the NHL? Anaheim was fleeced in that deal, and that, at least to me, makes up the for slim pickings that he's picked up in free agency.

I think that deal all depends on how you see Lupul. I think it'd be impossible to look at that deal and not acknowledge that Anaheim would have seen Lupul as a player who they wanted to get rid of primarily for salary/health concerns. The fact that he was productive last year and healthy, or at least healthy with regards to his back, makes it look like a really good trade but I don't know if that's the final word on it.

To look at it another way, if the lockout lasts the whole season then Lupul will be a UFA when things are resolved. Would you be confident giving him a long term deal that paid him like he was a PPG player? I wouldn't. It was a good deal, and looks like a great deal if Lupul is healthy and Gardiner develops the way he could, but I don't know how amazing it looks going forward.

Sure. You can look at it through any number of prisms. What if Gardiner develops into a Norris type defenseman and Lupul stays and continues to put numbers like he did last year? Perhaps unlikely that both of those things happen, but if even one of those scenarios come true, it still looks like a Cadillac trade.

 

[Kin]

Sure. You can look at it through any number of prisms. What if Gardiner develops into a Norris type defenseman and Lupul stays and continues to put numbers like he did last year? Perhaps unlikely that both of those things happen, but if even one of those scenarios come true, it still looks like a Cadillac trade.

I'm not looking at it through a prism though. I'm looking at it in the very real sense of what that trade means to the Maple Leafs right now. It looks more and more like the likelihood of Lupul is that the team is going to have to make a decision on him in the long-term based on that one season.

 

[Redleaf]

I'm not looking at it through a prism though. I'm looking at it in the very real sense of what that trade means to the Maple Leafs right now.
[/quote]

If you're really looking at what the trade means right now, than its landslide victory for Burke. Lupul, as of his last bunch of games played, looks fantastic, and Gardiner as of (his game) yesterday, looks like a gem of a d-man waiting to improve on an exceptional rookie season.

 

[Kin]

If you're really looking at what the trade means right now, than its landslide victory for Burke. Lupul, as of his last bunch of games played, looks fantastic, and Gardiner as of (his game) yesterday, looks like a gem of a d-man waiting to improve on an exceptional rookie season.

I agree that it was a good trade. What I'm talking about is Lupul and what he means to the club given his contract status/injury history.

 

[Redleaf]

If you're really looking at what the trade means right now, than its landslide victory for Burke. Lupul, as of his last bunch of games played, looks fantastic, and Gardiner as of (his game) yesterday, looks like a gem of a d-man waiting to improve on an exceptional rookie season.

I agree that it was a good trade. What I'm talking about is Lupul and what he means to the club given his contract status/injury history.

I guess I don't share the same pessimism about Lupul moving forward.

 

[Kin]

I guess I don't share the same pessimism about Lupul moving forward.

It's not pessimism, it's just acknowledging the difference in risk between Lupul at 2 years/8.5 million and Lupul at 5 years/30 million or whatever.

 

[Champ Kind]

My mother always told me to never answer a question with a question, but here I go anyway:

What was a bigger fleece, the Kessel deal or the Kaberle deal?

(We can all play this game if we want)

It kind of depends, doesn't it? I mean if we're giving Burke credit for that trade despite the draft picks not resulting in anything concrete yet or Colborne don't we have to do the same with Boston for Hamilton and Knight?

It sure does, Nik.  My point was simply that perpetuating the Kessel trade as some sort of value black-hole really (which it may or may not be, as you point out) AND using this deal as the Burke litmus test isn't really fair.  I think Burke's body of trade work needs to be taken as a whole if an opinion about Burke the trader is developed.

 

[Redleaf]

I guess I don't share the same pessimism about Lupul moving forward.

It's not pessimism, it's just acknowledging the difference in risk between Lupul at 2 years/8.5 million and Lupul at 5 years/30 million or whatever.

I hear ya. It's a question that's a little off the great trade/alright trade topic, but alright. Personally I hope Burke offers him a 3 year deal. Some risk, sure, but 3 years is fair, and I think Lupul wants to stay here.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Given Kessel is a superstar and Hamilton hasn't done anything in the NHL yet, the Beauchemin trade, Boston wins the Kessel deal, but the Leafs received a franchise player so no matter what it's not nothing.

Jake Gardiner is a hell of a player and Lupul has been great.

In fairness I do think you need to show a bit of consistency there. Gardiner has had one ok rookie season in the NHL. To categorize him as "a hell of a player" and Hamilton as a complete question mark does seem like you're giving Gardiner credit for his potential and not Hamilton for his.

Somewhat yes, you are correct, but Gardiner has translated pretty well to the pro game so far with signs that his potential is going to translate to the pro game.

Hamilton is a great prospect, but to this point he has never played a pro game and I think he left a couple of people underwhelmed by his performance at the last WJC.

 

[rdowdall]

Given Kessel is a superstar and Hamilton hasn't done anything in the NHL yet, the Beauchemin trade, Boston wins the Kessel deal, but the Leafs received a franchise player so no matter what it's not nothing.

Jake Gardiner is a hell of a player and Lupul has been great.

In fairness I do think you need to show a bit of consistency there. Gardiner has had one ok rookie season in the NHL. To categorize him as "a hell of a player" and Hamilton as a complete question mark does seem like you're giving Gardiner credit for his potential and not Hamilton for his.

Somewhat yes, you are correct, but Gardiner has translated pretty well to the pro game so far with signs that his potential is going to translate to the pro game.

Hamilton is a great prospect, but to this point he has never played a pro game and I think he left a couple of people underwhelmed by his performance at the last WJC.

I disagree with categorizing Kessel as a superstar or franchise player.  He is a great offensive player but at this point he doesn't seem to be capable of being the difference between winning and losing.

 

[Kin]

It sure does, Nik.  My point was simply that perpetuating the Kessel trade as some sort of value black-hole really (which it may or may not be, as you point out) AND using this deal as the Burke litmus test isn't really fair.  I think Burke's body of trade work needs to be taken as a whole if an opinion about Burke the trader is developed.

I don't think anyone was using the Kessel trade as the litmus test on Burke's tenure. I think it's pretty clear that it was brought up as a sort of counter to the acclaim for the Gardiner trade and, thereby, trying to do as you suggest and look at Burke's trading record within the larger perspective. That for his best one, there's been one equally bad(in that poster's opinion) to balance it out.

All I was saying to you is that if the Kaberle trade is then used as another example of a positive trade on Burke's balance sheet then someone counting the Kaberle trade as positive would be more inclined to look at the Kessel trade in a negative light because it would be giving credit for assets that have yet to produce much in the way of NHL talent.

 

[Kin]

I hear ya. It's a question that's a little off the great trade/alright trade topic, but alright.

Well, I think it's relevant for the same reason I think the trade is a good one. I'm not over the moon about how Gardiner has played so far but the reason I like the trade is what I think Gardiner can do in the future. Likewise with Lupul if all he gives the Leafs is one pretty good year while the club underperforms he won't have had much of an impact on the club.

Like you say, a three year offer might be all I'd be comfortable with too but that might very well be the schism that causes Lupul to go elsewhere. Looking forward that's a genuine concern.

 

[moon111]

Given Kessel is a superstar and Hamilton hasn't done anything in the NHL yet, the Beauchemin trade, Boston wins the Kessel deal, but the Leafs received a franchise player so no matter what it's not nothing.

Jake Gardiner is a hell of a player and Lupul has been great.

In fairness I do think you need to show a bit of consistency there. Gardiner has had one ok rookie season in the NHL. To categorize him as "a hell of a player" and Hamilton as a complete question mark does seem like you're giving Gardiner credit for his potential and not Hamilton for his.

Somewhat yes, you are correct, but Gardiner has translated pretty well to the pro game so far with signs that his potential is going to translate to the pro game.

Hamilton is a great prospect, but to this point he has never played a pro game and I think he left a couple of people underwhelmed by his performance at the last WJC.

I disagree with categorizing Kessel as a superstar or franchise player.  He is a great offensive player but at this point he doesn't seem to be capable of being the difference between winning and losing.

Top 10 scorers rarely do make a difference in winning or losing.

 

[Justin]

Given Kessel is a superstar and Hamilton hasn't done anything in the NHL yet, the Beauchemin trade, Boston wins the Kessel deal, but the Leafs received a franchise player so no matter what it's not nothing.

Jake Gardiner is a hell of a player and Lupul has been great.

In fairness I do think you need to show a bit of consistency there. Gardiner has had one ok rookie season in the NHL. To categorize him as "a hell of a player" and Hamilton as a complete question mark does seem like you're giving Gardiner credit for his potential and not Hamilton for his.

Somewhat yes, you are correct, but Gardiner has translated pretty well to the pro game so far with signs that his potential is going to translate to the pro game.

Hamilton is a great prospect, but to this point he has never played a pro game and I think he left a couple of people underwhelmed by his performance at the last WJC.

I disagree with categorizing Kessel as a superstar or franchise player.  He is a great offensive player but at this point he doesn't seem to be capable of being the difference between winning and losing.

Top 10 scorers rarely do make a difference in winning or losing.

There's no doubt Phil Kessel makes a huge difference the Leafs winning games. But is he a franchise player, as in a player to build your around? I don't think so. As great of a goal scorer as he is, he's more of a 2nd piece. Kind of like Gaborik.

 

[rdowdall]

Given Kessel is a superstar and Hamilton hasn't done anything in the NHL yet, the Beauchemin trade, Boston wins the Kessel deal, but the Leafs received a franchise player so no matter what it's not nothing.

Jake Gardiner is a hell of a player and Lupul has been great.

In fairness I do think you need to show a bit of consistency there. Gardiner has had one ok rookie season in the NHL. To categorize him as "a hell of a player" and Hamilton as a complete question mark does seem like you're giving Gardiner credit for his potential and not Hamilton for his.

Somewhat yes, you are correct, but Gardiner has translated pretty well to the pro game so far with signs that his potential is going to translate to the pro game.

Hamilton is a great prospect, but to this point he has never played a pro game and I think he left a couple of people underwhelmed by his performance at the last WJC.

I disagree with categorizing Kessel as a superstar or franchise player.  He is a great offensive player but at this point he doesn't seem to be capable of being the difference between winning and losing.

Top 10 scorers rarely do make a difference in winning or losing.

Top 10 scorers that could be held responsible for almost as many goals against as they score are sort of just there.

Franchise/Superstar players usually play a more complete game.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Top 10 scorers that could be held responsible for almost as many goals against as they score are sort of just there.

There's no way you can prove this.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Top 10 scorers that could be held responsible for almost as many goals against as they score are sort of just there.

Franchise/Superstar players usually play a more complete game.

While I'm not calling Kessel a franchise or superstar player, to say he's responsible for almost as many goals against as for is a slight exaggeration no?

 

[bustaheims]

Top 10 scorers that could be held responsible for almost as many goals against as they score are sort of just there.

I challenge you to find that many goals from last season that Kessel could, by realistic standards, be held responsible for.

Kessel may not be a defensive stalwart, but, that part of his game has shown improvements and his deficiencies have been blown out of proportion.