The Leafs Management vs NHL

[bustaheims]

Sure although, again, pointing out the things Nonis did seem like they're not entirely a function of whatever "new" direction or philosophy they might have. Likewise, "winning the lottery" is not a philosophy or direction, it's the definition of luck.

Sure, but it's luck that was enhanced by the team's dedication to rebuilding providing them with the best possible odds of achieving the most favourable outcome. Obviously, Shanahan and Co. didn't do anything to directly win the lottery, but the direction they're taking the team helped.

And, as others have pointed out, of the three things on that list that you can kind of credit to Nonis,the biggest/most important one seems like a direct response to the change in philosophy (Nylander).

 

[Al14]

Yeah. It's a little strange in that way. I think it was meant more as a list of things that show how the team's direction and philosophy have changed since Shanahan was hired, rather than giving credit to anyone for any particular moves.

Sure although, again, pointing out the things Nonis did seem like they're not entirely a function of whatever "new" direction or philosophy they might have. Likewise, "winning the lottery" is not a philosophy or direction, it's the definition of luck.

Once Shanahan came on board, I'd say it was pretty clear Nonis was just doing what he was told to do, vs. before when he was continuing his fine work of doing what Burke told him to do.

If I remember correctly, Nonis had a little over a year of being his own boss after Burke was fired and Shanahan was hired.  Nonis was the top hockey dude in the organization until Shanahan came on board.

 

[Frank E]

Sure although, again, pointing out the things Nonis did seem like they're not entirely a function of whatever "new" direction or philosophy they might have. Likewise, "winning the lottery" is not a philosophy or direction, it's the definition of luck.

Sure, but it's luck that was enhanced by the team's dedication to rebuilding providing them with the best possible odds of achieving the most favourable outcome. Obviously, Shanahan and Co. didn't do anything to directly win the lottery, but the direction they're taking the team helped.

And, as others have pointed out, of the three things on that list that you can kind of credit to Nonis,the biggest/most important one seems like a direct response to the change in philosophy (Nylander).

I guess I'm just not quite convinced that Shanahan is deserving of so much praise.  It was pretty clear that in previous years that the GM had a much different mandate.  The fact that ownership now embraced (at least last year) a tear down isn't necessarily on Shanahan. 

And for all the flak that Burke and Nonis take, the supposed building blocks of Nylander, Reilly, and Kadri are all inherited from drafts by those guys.

They put together a really bad hockey team this year, and that's not much of an accomplishment.  As Nik said, they got lucky and won a lottery.  I think the next 2 or 3 years are really going to determine whether or not these guys really know what they're doing.  Let's wait and see how they do when they have to start balancing much higher expectations, the salary cap, and UFA complementary pieces.

I hope they're very successful.

 

[herman]

Once Shanahan came on board, I'd say it was pretty clear Nonis was just doing what he was told to do, vs. before when he was continuing his fine work of doing what Burke told him to do.

If I remember correctly, Nonis had a little over a year of being his own boss after Burke was fired and Shanahan was hired.  Nonis was the top hockey dude in the organization until Shanahan came on board.

You are correct, and that is exactly what I meant.

I guess I'm just not quite convinced that Shanahan is deserving of so much praise.  It was pretty clear that in previous years that the GM had a much different mandate.  The fact that ownership now embraced (at least last year) a tear down isn't necessarily on Shanahan. 

And for all the flak that Burke and Nonis take, the supposed building blocks of Nylander, Reilly, and Kadri are all inherited from drafts by those guys.

They put together a really bad hockey team this year, and that's not much of an accomplishment.  As Nik said, they got lucky and won a lottery.  I think the next 2 or 3 years are really going to determine whether or not these guys really know what they're doing.  Let's wait and see how they do when they have to start balancing much higher expectations, the salary cap, and UFA complementary pieces.

I hope they're very successful.

With regards to the mandate from ownership, I saw it as a pretty clear move from Shanahan when he re-upped Carlyle and kept Nonis for that season that he was using it to force ownership's hand into accepting a true rebuild. I imagine he even played them a video presentation, projecting the direction of the team if it held its course (using that current 'evaluation' season as the prime example), and highlighting the names at the top of the up coming draft.

Fait accompli, with the 18-wheeler well on its way off the cliff already (from the lofty heights of a tenuous playoff position), Shanahan allowed ownership to save face and claim the rebuild as their own idea instead. This facilitated the Bloody Sunday that followed the locker clean out and subsequent moves: Babcock, Lamoriello, Lemaire added to augment Dubas, Hunter, and Pridham.

 

[bustaheims]

I guess I'm just not quite convinced that Shanahan is deserving of so much praise.  It was pretty clear that in previous years that the GM had a much different mandate.  The fact that ownership now embraced (at least last year) a tear down isn't necessarily on Shanahan. 

I honestly question whether that was a mandate from ownership, or whether Burke sold ownership on the flawed idea of a rebuild-on-the-fly much in the same way Shanahan sold them on the full scale rebuild, while Nonis was just kind of caught in between (and, has shown through his history in the league, that he works better implementing someone else's plans than creating his own).

Burke does deserve some credit for some of his picks, but, outside of Rielly and Kadri, there's not much to show from his era - and, giving someone credit for identifying talent in the top 7 picks of the draft feels like damning someone with faint praise. As for Nylander, I already covered that - that feels much more like a Shanahan directed move than one Nonis made on his own.

 

[herman]

As for Nylander, I already covered that - that feels much more like a Shanahan directed move than one Nonis made on his own.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/maple-leafs-president-no-mere-figurehead/article19387163/

Remember this Mirticle?

Shanahan intends to provide as much help as possible to Nonis and Co., even on days like the draft when, he admitted, many of the kids chosen had already finished their seasons by the time he took the Leafs top job this spring.

Nevertheless, he became particularly useful given slick Swedish forward William Nylander was one of the scouting staff?s top targets at eighth overall.

Shanahan and Nylander p?re played the 2006-07 season together on the New York Rangers, are of a similar age and get along very well, meaning the Leafs had some unique insight into their potential pick?s background and upbringing.

By the time the draft weekend came around, Shanahan felt he had such a good grasp on William Nylander?s personality and promise that he found the fact some were questioning his character in the lead-up to Friday humorous.

More importantly, those scouting reports were potentially beneficial to the Leafs, who wanted him to slip to their pick.

?I knew it wasn?t true,? Shanahan said. ?I did a lot of homework on him.

?I called players that I played with in Detroit that had played with William over in Sweden. ? To be honest with you, I did it a while ago.

?Everybody I talked to, people whose opinions I really respect, guys who are in dressing rooms, couldn?t say enough about the kid.?

Nonis, who was placed in the uncomfortable position of having a new boss looking over his shoulder back in April, admitted he was glad to have the added intel.

 

[Frank E]

As for Nylander, I already covered that - that feels much more like a Shanahan directed move than one Nonis made on his own.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/maple-leafs-president-no-mere-figurehead/article19387163/

Remember this Mirticle?

Shanahan intends to provide as much help as possible to Nonis and Co., even on days like the draft when, he admitted, many of the kids chosen had already finished their seasons by the time he took the Leafs top job this spring.

Nevertheless, he became particularly useful given slick Swedish forward William Nylander was one of the scouting staff?s top targets at eighth overall.

Shanahan and Nylander p?re played the 2006-07 season together on the New York Rangers, are of a similar age and get along very well, meaning the Leafs had some unique insight into their potential pick?s background and upbringing.

By the time the draft weekend came around, Shanahan felt he had such a good grasp on William Nylander?s personality and promise that he found the fact some were questioning his character in the lead-up to Friday humorous.

More importantly, those scouting reports were potentially beneficial to the Leafs, who wanted him to slip to their pick.

?I knew it wasn?t true,? Shanahan said. ?I did a lot of homework on him.

?I called players that I played with in Detroit that had played with William over in Sweden. ? To be honest with you, I did it a while ago.

?Everybody I talked to, people whose opinions I really respect, guys who are in dressing rooms, couldn?t say enough about the kid.?

Nonis, who was placed in the uncomfortable position of having a new boss looking over his shoulder back in April, admitted he was glad to have the added intel.

Well, to me that sounds more like Shanahan was doing this to ensure that Nylander was as advertised by his scouting team.

Like, they targeted Nylander, and Shanahan was just making sure.

 

[bustaheims]

Well, to me that sounds more like Shanahan was doing this to ensure that Nylander was as advertised by his scouting team.

Like, they targeted Nylander, and Shanahan was just making sure.

As the Edmonton/Yakupov situation has shown, what the scouting department recommends and what less competent management groups decide to do are often two different things. And, I'd certainly describe the Nonis/Poulin/Loiselle group as such.

 

[herman]

Well, to me that sounds more like Shanahan was doing this to ensure that Nylander was as advertised by his scouting team.

Like, they targeted Nylander, and Shanahan was just making sure.

As the Edmonton/Yakupov situation has shown, what the scouting department recommends and what less competent management groups decide to do are often two different things. And, I'd certainly describe the Nonis/Poulin/Loiselle group as such.

I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

To me it sounded like Shanahan went to bat for Nylander and basically shut down any internal misconceptions about Nylander's perceived attitude (that let him drop past the top 3 to begin with).

 

[bustaheims]

I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

To me it sounded like Shanahan went to bat for Nylander and basically shut down any internal misconceptions about Nylander's perceived attitude (that let him drop past the top 3 to begin with).

The fanbase and the media. I remember Mirtle on Twitter being absolutely convinced that, with their track record and view of things, they'd draft Ritchie.

 

[Tigger]

I guess I'm just not quite convinced that Shanahan is deserving of so much praise.  It was pretty clear that in previous years that the GM had a much different mandate.  The fact that ownership now embraced (at least last year) a tear down isn't necessarily on Shanahan. 

I honestly question whether that was a mandate from ownership, or whether Burke sold ownership on the flawed idea of a rebuild-on-the-fly much in the same way Shanahan sold them on the full scale rebuild, while Nonis was just kind of caught in between (and, has shown through his history in the league, that he works better implementing someone else's plans than creating his own).

Burke does deserve some credit for some of his picks, but, outside of Rielly and Kadri, there's not much to show from his era - and, giving someone credit for identifying talent in the top 7 picks of the draft feels like damning someone with faint praise. As for Nylander, I already covered that - that feels much more like a Shanahan directed move than one Nonis made on his own.

I think that was a 'we're selling, sell it' pov from the previous board. The current one seems in for the long haul, the 'big win', as it were.

 

[Kin]

Sure, but it's luck that was enhanced by the team's dedication to rebuilding providing them with the best possible odds of achieving the most favourable outcome. Obviously, Shanahan and Co. didn't do anything to directly win the lottery, but the direction they're taking the team helped.

Sure which is why two spots above it on the list is "Finished Last". But to have both "Finished Last" and "Won the Lottery" is giving him credit for winning the Lottery.

Again, I'm saying it's a misleading list, not that I don't like Shanahan. 

 

[Redleaf]

Well, to me that sounds more like Shanahan was doing this to ensure that Nylander was as advertised by his scouting team.

Like, they targeted Nylander, and Shanahan was just making sure.

As the Edmonton/Yakupov situation has shown, what the scouting department recommends and what less competent management groups decide to do are often two different things. And, I'd certainly describe the Nonis/Poulin/Loiselle group as such.

I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

To me it sounded like Shanahan went to bat for Nylander and basically shut down any internal misconceptions about Nylander's perceived attitude (that let him drop past the top 3 to begin with).

That was certainly how it played out in the reports I read at the time as well.

 

[Kin]

I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2345.0

It's a long thread but the short answer is no, not really. At least those of us here didn't have real expectations as to what would happen. Chiefly because nobody really had any idea how that draft would go outside of Ekblad being a consensus #1.

One thing's clear though. Those of us at the time didn't believe that Nonis was just doing whatever Shanahan told him to do which, I guess, seems to be the thought now unless those things were bad in which case they were all Nonis.

 

[Zee]

I give Nonis full credit for signing Clarkson.

 

[herman]

I wasn't here for the 2014 draft, but wasn't the fanbase kind of expecting Nonis to go with Ritchie over Ehlers/Nylander?

http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2345.0

It's a long thread but the short answer is no, not really. At least those of us here didn't have real expectations as to what would happen. Chiefly because nobody really had any idea how that draft would go outside of Ekblad being a consensus #1.

One thing's clear though. Those of us at the time didn't believe that Nonis was just doing whatever Shanahan told him to do which, I guess, seems to be the thought now unless those things were bad in which case they were all Nonis.

Thanks. I'll go through that thread some time this week since the draft isn't until the end of June.

The one no-no thing I read about Shanahan was how hard he pursued re-signing Bolland. I guess they had a dollar threshold they would not cross because thankfully that did not come to fruition. Shortly after that, Dubas came on board and there was no more such talk. Winnik was signed instead.

 

[herman]

I'm about halfway through  the 2014 Draft Pick Watch thread: http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=2345.0

It's a delicious read watching the jockey back and forth on who we should pick with our #8, or if we should move up or down, or what's worth what. A couple of people chime in with Nylander every once in awhile.

I liken it to watching Game of Thrones (season 1-5) with non-book readers. Or time traveling.

 

[Highlander]

they could always draft Brienne of Tarth, she could replace Laine

 

[Al14]

I give Nonis full credit for signing Clarkson.

I give Shanahan FULL CREDIT for FIRING Nonis!  ;D

 

[herman]

Tangentially related to two Leafs management regimes:

https://twitter.com/brock_mcgillis/status/818477935883616257
www.twitter.com/brock_mcgillis/status/818477935883616257

For the past couple of seasons we've been hearing about how the team wants their players to be good people first and foremost. Shanahan (and Dubas) directly reached out to McGillis following this story first being published (Yahoo! Sports) and demonstrated exactly what they meant.

It's a message that needs to be heard, not just for the LGBTQ community, but all other people groups that are oppressed explicitly and/or implicitly.