The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[Tigger]

Honestly though, as frustrating as it is to have our team out of the playoffs for soooo long, I can't let that mitigate my enthusiasm for watching this team grow and develop into a top team

I guess nobody ever turned over their roster before. UFA = deathwish. BOOK IT.

OK so you guys don't see a dichotomy between accepting bad performance watching a team grow and develop and that much of the roster is not far from turning over (either to new players or more expensive contracts that increase the cap hit on existing talent). Fine.

I was under the impression that there were windows where things work out under the cap, not to mention timeframes where you need success for a trade to make sense, such as trading several picks/prospects for a player you will lose rights to much sooner.

What we could be looking at is the longer-term equivalent of trading a ton of picks for playoff rentals but never making it out of the 1st round. That's fail and no amount of patience on the part of the fans during the losing process is going to change that.

When Burke came in with the 'if I could make a trade for a player that would get us to the playoffs I'd to it tomorrow' attitude and traded for Kessel I admit I was a bit hesitant about their direction. Since then, with the altered direction made by Burke especially last deadline I think we're seeing an admission that the game has changed and the team needs to be built along the lines of other consistent successful teams, well more so at least.

I don't know that I'm accepting terrible play, no more than the coach or the general manager are but to develop a team and transition from the club they were means we'll see bumps in the road, course corrections and some ugly hockey from time to time.

There is a 'window' of opportunity, sure, but that's going with the notion that it's all or nothing and I think the Leafs are trying to establish something more consistent than that. Given the rate of turn over I defenestrate less stock in that than I did before, with the Leafs anyways.

The Leafs aren't a contender right now, they're a middle of the pack team with upside, based on that I'm kind of glad they're positioned the way they are in terms of flexibility. Speculating that the future may hold a repeat of trading picks for playoff futility is fine and all but it hasn't happened and so it really isn't worth worrying about to me.

There's also little reason at this point to believe that the core players who will become ufa's won't re-sign with the Leafs down the road or, in the case that they won't, couldn't be traded.

When I see a prediction of failure based on something largely unknowable at this point, I don't see much hope for patience.

 

[Bender]

Honestly though, as frustrating as it is to have our team out of the playoffs for soooo long, I can't let that mitigate my enthusiasm for watching this team grow and develop into a top team

I guess nobody ever turned over their roster before. UFA = deathwish. BOOK IT.

OK so you guys don't see a dichotomy between accepting bad performance watching a team grow and develop and that much of the roster is not far from turning over (either to new players or more expensive contracts that increase the cap hit on existing talent). Fine.

I was under the impression that there were windows where things work out under the cap, not to mention timeframes where you need success for a trade to make sense, such as trading several picks/prospects for a player you will lose rights to much sooner.

What we could be looking at is the longer-term equivalent of trading a ton of picks for playoff rentals but never making it out of the 1st round. That's fail and no amount of patience on the part of the fans during the losing process is going to change that.

I refuse to rehash the Kessel deal now, and while I agree that selling off picks is usually a bad idea, I don't see Burke doing that in the future. I mean, how many times since the Kessel deal did he include a high end pick into a deal for a vet?

Honestly, the guy does one thing one time and all of sudden it's the rule and not the exception. What about the Kaberle deal where he brought in a couple picks AND a high end prospect?

Nevermind the fact that UFAs can be retained. Just because they have a chance to hit the open market doesn't mean they will - look at the UFA crop this year.

Jeez, I think sometimes people have blinders on when the team loses a game. There are issues that need to be addressed but to distort reality to suit your own perceptions of Burke is just unfair.

And tbh, I think equating building for long term success and burning your picks a-la JFJ when your team isn't that good is just insane.

 

[bustaheims]

I refuse to rehash the Kessel deal now, and while I agree that selling off picks is usually a bad idea, I don't see Burke doing that in the future. I mean, how many times since the Kessel deal did he include a high end pick into a deal for a vet?

Honestly, the guy does one thing one time and all of sudden it's the rule and not the exception. What about the Kaberle deal where he brought in a couple picks AND a high end prospect?

Seriously. Outside of the Kessel deal, the only time since taking over as GM in Toronto that Burke has moved a pick higher than a 4th rounder in a trade that wasn't draft pick(s) for draft pick(s) was the 2nd rounder he traded for Liles

 

[bustaheims]

The other problem with the PK is that Reimer hasn't been good all year.  Not surprising, really, that we would regress some from last season when he was an unknown.  Now all the teams have a book on him and he hasn't been able elevate his game to compensate for it, at least not yet.

That's really only partially true. Reimer has been lights out at even strength - a .936 Sv%, which is good for 9th in the league among goalies who have played in 10+ games. If teams really had a book on him I'd expect that number would be a fair amount lower. He's really struggled on the PK, sure, as he did last season as well - and, to me, that suggests more that the league has figured out how to easily beat the Leafs PK (not surprisingly) rather than having figured out the book on Reimer specifically.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

and, to me, that suggests more that the league has figured out how to easily beat the Leafs PK (not surprisingly)

The ol' "pass & shoot" method.

 

[Kin]

I refuse to rehash the Kessel deal now, and while I agree that selling off picks is usually a bad idea, I don't see Burke doing that in the future. I mean, how many times since the Kessel deal did he include a high end pick into a deal for a vet?

Honestly, the guy does one thing one time and all of sudden it's the rule and not the exception. What about the Kaberle deal where he brought in a couple picks AND a high end prospect?

Seriously. Outside of the Kessel deal, the only time since taking over as GM in Toronto that Burke has moved a pick higher than a 4th rounder in a trade that wasn't draft pick(s) for draft pick(s) was the 2nd rounder he traded for Liles

Seriously. The way people dwell on the fact that he traded away two top 10 picks, I mean, has he traded away two top 10 picks since that?

 

[bustaheims]

and, to me, that suggests more that the league has figured out how to easily beat the Leafs PK (not surprisingly)

The ol' "pass & shoot" method.

Pretty much, unfortunately.

1) Pass the puck around a few times to get the defence out of position
2) Give puck to open man
3) Profit, no question marks required.

 

[bustaheims]

Seriously. The way people dwell on the fact that he traded away two top 10 picks, I mean, has he traded away two top 10 picks since that?

It's not that, though - it's that apparent assumption that he's going to do so again and again, and, outside of the Kessel trade, nothing in his time with the Leafs suggests that to be true. He hasn't traded many prospects, and the majority of those he has dealt were of the marginal variety, nor has he dealt away draft picks like they were candy. He has, in fact, acquired as many 1st round picks as he has dealt away - sure, they weren't top 10 picks, but, neither were the picks from the Kessel deal when the trade was made (even if you, I and a few others felt they very easily could be).

 

[Kin]

It's not that, though - it's that apparent assumption that he's going to do so again and again, and, outside of the Kessel trade, nothing in his time with the Leafs suggests that to be true. He hasn't traded many prospects, and the majority of those he has dealt were of the marginal variety, nor has he dealt away draft picks like they were candy. He has, in fact, acquired as many 1st round picks as he has dealt away - sure, they weren't top 10 picks, but, neither were the picks from the Kessel deal when the trade was made (even if you, I and a few others felt they very easily could be).

So, what, that somehow renders my taking cheap shots at that deal whenever possible pointless? Less satisfying? I respectfully disagree, sir.

 

[lamajama]

Of the 2 special teams, the PP is the hardest one to improve, yet they have.

The PK is the by-far more "teachable" process. Yet the Leafs still flounder - certainly Reimer's performance does
not help but his guys certainly give the opposition Grade A chances.

Burke has talked about the Blue and White disease and accountability and this has caused him to turn over the
roster almost 100%. So he's either picked the wrong
players or needs to hold the teachers accountable.

For the record, Burke couldn't pick a goalie in Vancouver either.

The PP is something players all look forward to do -- you simply score goals with the advantage. But, the PK requires a different approach as well as a set of players that form the special teams for this particular (not very likeable) PK task.

Either the Leafs do not have a set of steady go-to special teams PK players, or, the ones they have now simply are not for the job.

Further, the coach (& coaching staff) can share some of the blame for the inept PK, then again, when one looks at the improved PP, is it fair to ask -- has it improved because of the right players on the ice for it who know how and what to do?  How much credit does the coach take for the improved PP?

Same for the PK.  As I mentioned prior, is it the wrong set of players or is it that they don't know how to execute?  How much blame does one lay on the coaching staff for this?

Well it's one of the above 2. Given that Burke has changed over the players, and they won't "pay the price" is the players fault (so change them), or they don't know what to execute (so change the coach(s)).

I know I'm overreacting to the Buffalo crapfest but this PK has killed the Leafs numerous times this season. The previous seasons the PK sucked under Wilson (all of them...) the Leafs were not in the same position to make the playoffs and perhaps win a round ergo my totally peed off attitude.

 

[bustaheims]

So, what, that somehow renders my taking cheap shots at that deal whenever possible pointless? Less satisfying? I respectfully disagree, sir.

Hey, man, whatever floats your boat. I'm not one to judge. I maintain my hatred of anyone wearing the number 56 is perfectly rational and relevant.

 

[Andy007]

So, what, that somehow renders my taking cheap shots at that deal whenever possible pointless? Less satisfying? I respectfully disagree, sir.

Hey, man, whatever floats your boat. I'm not one to judge. I maintain my hatred of anyone wearing the number 56 is perfectly rational and relevant.

nathan dempsey?

 

[maplesyrup]

LT?

 

[bustaheims]

So, what, that somehow renders my taking cheap shots at that deal whenever possible pointless? Less satisfying? I respectfully disagree, sir.

Hey, man, whatever floats your boat. I'm not one to judge. I maintain my hatred of anyone wearing the number 56 is perfectly rational and relevant.

nathan dempsey?

You're new around here, aren't you?

 

[Tigger]

That's gotta be AW...

 

[bustaheims]

That's gotta be AW...

That's 'He Who Shall Not Be Named', thank you very much.

 

[Tigger]

That's gotta be AW...

That's 'He Who Shall Not Be Named', thank you very much.

Mine was #21 WIRTSO...

 

[Kin]

Hey, man, whatever floats your boat. I'm not one to judge. I maintain my hatred of anyone wearing the number 56 is perfectly rational and relevant.

Um, you mean the guy who was a +5 in his extended stretch with the club? Pretty sure that means he was on the ice for more goals for than goals against, smart guy.

 

[bustaheims]

Um, you mean the guy who was a +5 in his extended stretch with the club? Pretty sure that means he was on the ice for more goals for than goals against, smart guy.

Good thing for him that goals scored against him on the PK don't count toward +/-.

 

[Kin]

Good thing for him that goals scored against him on the PK don't count toward +/-.

Gut check time. Can I actually bring myself to defend Andy Wozniewski for shoots and giggles?

No. No I can't.